RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20

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RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20

Poll ended at Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Kevin Durant (BKN)
12
6%
Kemba Walker (BOS)
59
29%
Ben Simmons (PHI)
15
7%
Luka Doncic (DAL)
48
23%
Donovan Mitchell (UTA)
16
8%
Victor Oladipo (IND)
6
3%
Kyle Lowry (TOR)
10
5%
Jrue Holiday (NOP)
12
6%
Pascal Siakam (TOR)
9
4%
Chris Paul (OKC)
20
10%
 
Total votes: 207

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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#21 » by Tor_Raps » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:42 pm

Chris Paul is still a top 15 player in this league. He will show people next season...
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#22 » by KyRo23 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:45 pm

What's even the point of voting KD lol "Yes I believe that KD is the 19th best player in the league next year!", just makes no sense.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#23 » by audiosway » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:52 pm

Luka. He's already better than Kemba Walker.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#24 » by SlowPaced » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:00 pm

cellphonecamera wrote:Nominate Drummond. Do people forget that he exists?


No, he's just not that good.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#25 » by Jazz Dog » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm

Nominate Conley
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#26 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:10 pm

RPM by year:

2019
11. Kevin Durant 4.96 (injured)
12. Chris Paul 4.76
15. Kyle Lowry 4.65
17. Jrue Holiday 4.61
24. Pascal Siakam 3.80 (improving rapidly)
35. Kemba Walker 2.76 (despite being rated #6 in the league on offense)
47. Victor Oladipo 2.22 (injured)
52. Donovan Mitchell 2.02
63. Ben Simmons 1.74
86. Luka Doncic 1.29 (rookie)

2018
1. Chris Paul 6.99
6. Victor Oladipo 5.91
9. Kyle Lowry 5.18
21. Kemba Walker 3.81
22. Jrue Holiday 3.73
24. Kevin Durant 3.61
35. Ben Simmons 2.89
50. Donovan Mitchell 2.15
73. Pascal Siakam 1.53

KD and Oladipo I’d write off first due to the injuries. Then probably Kemba who has the lowest RPM of the vets and whose box score stats suggest he’s overrated by ORPM possibly due to how badly he was needed with terrible teammates in Charlotte. Then Mitchell who’s never cracked the top 30 and made no progress last year. Then Luka who has the worst single year of anyone in the sample.

That leaves Paul, Lowry, Jrue, Siakam, and Simmons. I think any of these 5 has a decent case.

-Chris Paul has the best single RPM in the 2 year sample (in 2018) and the best RPM last season among healthy players.

-Kyle Lowry has the second best overall RPM season along healthy players (from 2018) and the second best RPM last season while maintaining better health than Paul only missing 2 playoff games his entire career.

-Jrue Holiday has the best numbers last year and the best 2 year average of anyone who hasn’t hit the decline phase of their career yet.

-Siakam has the best numbers of anyone who’s still growing and improving and made great strides over the course of the year. He’s been playing basketball for such a short time and improving so rapidly each season it makes sense to think he’s on a path for greater growth.

-Ben Simmons was excellent as a rookie with his only real ding being lack of postseason success. He struggled last season having to play alongside Jimmy Butler where his skills as a primary ballhandler were somewhat redundant as it took them quite a while to resolve an awkward fit. He was much better by playoff time though and it makes sense he’d bounce back to something better than his previous year’s form.

Seems like any of those 5 are fine choices. Yet once again the poll’s between what seems like the weaker options. What’s the case for Kemba over Jrue? His box score stats are barely any better and he’s much, much, much weaker as a defender. RPM and Kemba as the 6th best offensive player and Jrue as the 46th best offensive player and still has Jrue clearly ahead. The box score numbers don’t represent anywhere near that kind of gap offensively. Meanwhile, Luka’s poor defense leaves him with a very long way to go to reach the level Siakam played at in 2019 or the level Simmons played at in 2018.

Why is it that Rudy Gobert gets a rocket ship up the rankings on the basis of his defense despite a very limited offensive game, but then other players’ defense gets completely ignored even if the gap between their respective defensive abilities is as big as the gap from Gobert to Capela or Horford?
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#27 » by Zespetjest » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:14 pm

Luka
Nominate KP
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#28 » by Metallikid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:14 pm

Voted Chris Paul (you people are insane)

Nominate DeMar DeRozan
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#29 » by shza » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:19 pm

How long is Dipo projected to be out this season? I hadn’t realized he wouldn’t be back right toward the beginning. That may well change my vote, as I’d definitely put a part-time Klay (or a full-time Kemba, Lowry, or CP3) over a part-time Dipo.

EDit: I’m seeing not until December, so changing my vote to Lowry.)
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#30 » by Atmanne » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:00 pm

Jrue Holiday is officially underrated
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#31 » by baldur » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:13 pm

nominate klay.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#32 » by Hroz » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:03 am

Nominate La
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#33 » by thinkingwarriors » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 am

SlowPaced wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:Vote: Kemba Walker
Nominate: LaMarcus Aldridge



Won't play for the majority of the season. Shouldn't be surprising.


Then why is Kevin Durant up here? He's not playing for the ENTIRE season.


The OP started it with KD in there, nobody nominated him. People, including myself, have been asking the OP to remove him from the poll since the beginning.


So why is Oladipo up there?
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#34 » by lobosloboslobos » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:33 am

for crissakes it's not like there are any especially good players on the championship team that beat the 76ers the Bucks and the Warriors. better leave those guys off because it was actually a one-man team that won the title. smh
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#35 » by Metallikid » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:43 am

lobosloboslobos wrote:for crissakes it's not like there are any especially good players on the championship team that beat the 76ers the Bucks and the Warriors. better leave those guys off because it was actually a one-man team that won the title. smh


You're dead wrong.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#36 » by KqWIN » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:12 am

iggymcfrack wrote:RPM by year:

2019
11. Kevin Durant 4.96 (injured)
12. Chris Paul 4.76
15. Kyle Lowry 4.65
17. Jrue Holiday 4.61
24. Pascal Siakam 3.80 (improving rapidly)
35. Kemba Walker 2.76 (despite being rated #6 in the league on offense)
47. Victor Oladipo 2.22 (injured)
52. Donovan Mitchell 2.02
63. Ben Simmons 1.74
86. Luka Doncic 1.29 (rookie)

2018
1. Chris Paul 6.99
6. Victor Oladipo 5.91
9. Kyle Lowry 5.18
21. Kemba Walker 3.81
22. Jrue Holiday 3.73
24. Kevin Durant 3.61
35. Ben Simmons 2.89
50. Donovan Mitchell 2.15
73. Pascal Siakam 1.53

KD and Oladipo I’d write off first due to the injuries. Then probably Kemba who has the lowest RPM of the vets and whose box score stats suggest he’s overrated by ORPM possibly due to how badly he was needed with terrible teammates in Charlotte. Then Mitchell who’s never cracked the top 30 and made no progress last year. Then Luka who has the worst single year of anyone in the sample.

That leaves Paul, Lowry, Jrue, Siakam, and Simmons. I think any of these 5 has a decent case.

-Chris Paul has the best single RPM in the 2 year sample (in 2018) and the best RPM last season among healthy players.

-Kyle Lowry has the second best overall RPM season along healthy players (from 2018) and the second best RPM last season while maintaining better health than Paul only missing 2 playoff games his entire career.

-Jrue Holiday has the best numbers last year and the best 2 year average of anyone who hasn’t hit the decline phase of their career yet.

-Siakam has the best numbers of anyone who’s still growing and improving and made great strides over the course of the year. He’s been playing basketball for such a short time and improving so rapidly each season it makes sense to think he’s on a path for greater growth.

-Ben Simmons was excellent as a rookie with his only real ding being lack of postseason success. He struggled last season having to play alongside Jimmy Butler where his skills as a primary ballhandler were somewhat redundant as it took them quite a while to resolve an awkward fit. He was much better by playoff time though and it makes sense he’d bounce back to something better than his previous year’s form.

Seems like any of those 5 are fine choices. Yet once again the poll’s between what seems like the weaker options. What’s the case for Kemba over Jrue? His box score stats are barely any better and he’s much, much, much weaker as a defender. RPM and Kemba as the 6th best offensive player and Jrue as the 46th best offensive player and still has Jrue clearly ahead. The box score numbers don’t represent anywhere near that kind of gap offensively. Meanwhile, Luka’s poor defense leaves him with a very long way to go to reach the level Siakam played at in 2019 or the level Simmons played at in 2018.

Why is it that Rudy Gobert gets a rocket ship up the rankings on the basis of his defense despite a very limited offensive game, but then other players’ defense gets completely ignored even if the gap between their respective defensive abilities is as big as the gap from Gobert to Capela or Horford?


I did not vote for Kemba but it seems odd to ding Kemba because he's good offense. Usually this argument is on the other side, but the end result is the same. It shouldn't matter where value comes from. 1 point gained on offense is the same as 1 point saved on defense. Sure, Kemba is lackluster on defense. But he checks all the boxes from a statistical standpoint as one of the elite offensive players in the league. Don't see how that is a negative.

Also odd to make that statement about Mitchell, which isn't necessarily unfair, but then go on to include Simmons in the 5 reasonable choices. It's funny because you can almost swap their names and it'd be the same argument. One could say that Simmons has never cracked the top 30 and made no progress last year. On the other hand, Mitchell was excellent as a rookie with the lack of playoff success being a ding against him. He struggled last year at the beginning due to a foot injury, but come playoff time he was much better and it'd make sense that he'd bounce back to form.

PS: I'm not actually making that argument, just pointing out how easy it is to switch that narrative.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#37 » by pootbrah » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:24 am

Doncic

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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#38 » by picc » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:20 am

I cant WAIT til you busters are forced to bow at the altar of Luka this year. Dude is going to make you all look silly. He's hungry and has a full year of adjusting to nba defenses under his belt. Its going to get ugly.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#39 » by iggymcfrack » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:58 am

KqWIN wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:RPM by year:

2019
11. Kevin Durant 4.96 (injured)
12. Chris Paul 4.76
15. Kyle Lowry 4.65
17. Jrue Holiday 4.61
24. Pascal Siakam 3.80 (improving rapidly)
35. Kemba Walker 2.76 (despite being rated #6 in the league on offense)
47. Victor Oladipo 2.22 (injured)
52. Donovan Mitchell 2.02
63. Ben Simmons 1.74
86. Luka Doncic 1.29 (rookie)

2018
1. Chris Paul 6.99
6. Victor Oladipo 5.91
9. Kyle Lowry 5.18
21. Kemba Walker 3.81
22. Jrue Holiday 3.73
24. Kevin Durant 3.61
35. Ben Simmons 2.89
50. Donovan Mitchell 2.15
73. Pascal Siakam 1.53

KD and Oladipo I’d write off first due to the injuries. Then probably Kemba who has the lowest RPM of the vets and whose box score stats suggest he’s overrated by ORPM possibly due to how badly he was needed with terrible teammates in Charlotte. Then Mitchell who’s never cracked the top 30 and made no progress last year. Then Luka who has the worst single year of anyone in the sample.

That leaves Paul, Lowry, Jrue, Siakam, and Simmons. I think any of these 5 has a decent case.

-Chris Paul has the best single RPM in the 2 year sample (in 2018) and the best RPM last season among healthy players.

-Kyle Lowry has the second best overall RPM season along healthy players (from 2018) and the second best RPM last season while maintaining better health than Paul only missing 2 playoff games his entire career.

-Jrue Holiday has the best numbers last year and the best 2 year average of anyone who hasn’t hit the decline phase of their career yet.

-Siakam has the best numbers of anyone who’s still growing and improving and made great strides over the course of the year. He’s been playing basketball for such a short time and improving so rapidly each season it makes sense to think he’s on a path for greater growth.

-Ben Simmons was excellent as a rookie with his only real ding being lack of postseason success. He struggled last season having to play alongside Jimmy Butler where his skills as a primary ballhandler were somewhat redundant as it took them quite a while to resolve an awkward fit. He was much better by playoff time though and it makes sense he’d bounce back to something better than his previous year’s form.

Seems like any of those 5 are fine choices. Yet once again the poll’s between what seems like the weaker options. What’s the case for Kemba over Jrue? His box score stats are barely any better and he’s much, much, much weaker as a defender. RPM and Kemba as the 6th best offensive player and Jrue as the 46th best offensive player and still has Jrue clearly ahead. The box score numbers don’t represent anywhere near that kind of gap offensively. Meanwhile, Luka’s poor defense leaves him with a very long way to go to reach the level Siakam played at in 2019 or the level Simmons played at in 2018.

Why is it that Rudy Gobert gets a rocket ship up the rankings on the basis of his defense despite a very limited offensive game, but then other players’ defense gets completely ignored even if the gap between their respective defensive abilities is as big as the gap from Gobert to Capela or Horford?


I did not vote for Kemba but it seems odd to ding Kemba because he's good offense. Usually this argument is on the other side, but the end result is the same. It shouldn't matter where value comes from. 1 point gained on offense is the same as 1 point saved on defense. Sure, Kemba is lackluster on defense. But he checks all the boxes from a statistical standpoint as one of the elite offensive players in the league. Don't see how that is a negative.

Also odd to make that statement about Mitchell, which isn't necessarily unfair, but then go on to include Simmons in the 5 reasonable choices. It's funny because you can almost swap their names and it'd be the same argument. One could say that Simmons has never cracked the top 30 and made no progress last year. On the other hand, Mitchell was excellent as a rookie with the lack of playoff success being a ding against him. He struggled last year at the beginning due to a foot injury, but come playoff time he was much better and it'd make sense that he'd bounce back to form.

PS: I'm not actually making that argument, just pointing out how easy it is to switch that narrative.


My point on Kemba is that his box score stats don’t jive with him being a top 5ish offensive player as RPM says. He wasn’t top 20 in any of the box score composites. Thus it’s likely that RPM is actually overrating him somewhat. Meanwhile RPM is the best tool we have for defense so if we assume RPM’s accurate for defense and we say the truth on offense is somewhere in the middle (say Kemba as the 12th best player in the league), then he has a long way to go to catch up to CP3, Lowry, and Jrue overall.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2019-20 

Post#40 » by ElectricMayhem » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:08 pm

Now that CP3 is finally on the board, I voted for him.
Nominate: Drummond. It feels a little strange if he gets nominated right after CP3 because there is such a different in their abilities, but that speaks more to CP3 being underrated. I understand picks for DeRozan, Middleton, Conley, Aldridge, Russell, etc. All of them along with Drummond represent the next tier down.
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