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Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:00 am
by UtahJazzFan88
stormi wrote:Paul George is so much better than Jimmy Butler that it's a no brainer for me, and I love Shai


Agreed, plus you never know what kind of attitude or locker room guy Jimmy is.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 am
by JN61
George last year was heads and shoulders above any year's versio of Butler. Granted some of it is Westbrook's impact but to me it's George any day. I would be more worried of he had leg injury rather than shoulder. So give me George.

Also Butler's attitude is a problem considering his status as a player. He is borderline all-star (not an all-star in West) having superstar attitude and maintenance while George was having superstar year and he is very low maintenance guy and good for locker room in comparison.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:18 am
by JN61
Prokorov wrote:
Vae Victus wrote:I'm a bit bored and i'm wondering what board consensus would be on this hypothetical scenario.

Lets say if Butler was willing to be 2nd banana to Kawhi and Kawhi is happy with that arrangements and outright signs with LAC.= to begin the team up.

If Butler comes to LAC for cap (or S&T), lets say Gallo + 2 SRPs for pure cap space goes out, SGA stays, and Kawhi signs for cap as well. Rest of the moves plays out similarly.

C - Zubac, Harrell, Kabengle
PF- Green, Harkless? (this likely wouldnt happen unless S&T shenanigans was involved in getting Butler from PHI)
SF- Kawhi, JRobinson, MacGruder
SG- Butler, Lou Will, Shamet
PG- SGA, PatBev, Mann

Kawhi plays some PF if the other team goes small at that spot. Butler can slide to 3 when that happens. Clips are thin at PF, unless Kabengele steps up in a big way, or Zubac + Harrell both can play 30+ mins without hurting spacing.

As you can see it's basically a Butler + SGA vs PG13 + Harkless? situation. I'm not gonna factor in draft picks as that makes picking the Butler + SGA combo too easy, imo. Let's just say, for next season, which move would be better. Which Clipper team would be stronger?


this isnt close. butler alone is much better then PG. then add SGA?

George played better offense and better defense than Butler last year, so not sure about your statement.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:41 am
by QRich3
When you have the luck to get to the point of being a contender, you're not in the business of gathering assets or winning trades anymore. It's a once in a generation opportunity and you should do everything in your power to bring yourself closer to it. So if you have to pay two 1st round picks for a 34 year old role player that's gonna give you 15MPG (totally made up hypothetical scenario), but that gets you considerably closer to a championship, you do that otherwise horrible trade in a heartbeat.

In that regard, the price for getting George was insane. But George is a clearly better player than Butler and he gets you closer to winning a championship, so that's undeniably the better choice. Not to mention he's gonna be much less of a headache and he's the first (1A 1B with Kawhi) all NBA type of player that's willingly gone out of his way to come here. That gives you a lot more security than committing to pay 34 year old Butler $38M.

Mylie10 wrote:
stormi wrote:Paul George is so much better than Jimmy Butler that it's a no brainer for me, and I love Shai


I like George way better. And I really like the guys they drafted in Kabengele and Mann who I think is a total diamond in the rough.

I watched Mann completely shut down Ja Morant in the Tourney. I'm talking only when he guarded Ja. Nobody else can stop him. But I see Mann as a sg/SF.

Anyhow, I think they are happy how it worked out and I think George fits the locker room better than Butler would.

Mann's looked amazing in summer league too, I worry his offense is way too rough to get playing time in the real NBA, but apparently Jerry West is convinced he'll be a core part of the rotation by year's end. Excited to watch how he evolves.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:10 am
by Vae Victus
TheNewEra wrote:
Not Suave Rico wrote:Doesn't seem the Clippers front office wanted anything to do with Butler. I don't believe they even reached out to his people even though he expressed interest in the team just last year.



I really want to find out more about this someday. Butler expressed major interest in the team around the time he was traded so what happen. How did he go from interest to there being no talk at all about him going to the clippers in free agency?

Did the front office give him the cold shoulder and if they did wtf why ? If Presti doesn’t bite we are assed out with no second star but we were ready to give money to Morris?


Yea, i was honestly quite pissed that the LAC FO didnt kick the tires on Butler first, since Kawhi was acting too cute.

IMHO, signing Butler right off the bat (and maybe later on S&T once all the pieces are in place) to use as a lure for Kawhi (or Kyrie, KD, etc) was the safest, smartest, and highest longterm upside move. Adding Butler to last year's squad woulda easily added several wins (48 to 55) turn the squad into a semi contender status, especially with the fall of the GSW dynasty. Then with Butler as a lure, convincing Kawhi to come shoulda been easy. Also keeping all the picks to make more moves for a 3rd star, woulda been the true ideal. If the Clippers had sold out on a 3rd star level player by trading the entire pantry of future unprotected FRPs, then it woulda been 100% worth it. Prolly something along the lines of Lou Will + JRobinson + assloads of picks.

Now if Butler had snubbed LAC, then i can understand. if Butler refused to be a 2nd banana to Kawhi, then fine, it is what it is. But forcing yourself into a corner to grossly overpay for PG13 in order to convince Kawhi to join (stealing him from the Lakers), really just reeks of poor asset management, which they spent years carefully building up.

Butler and Kawhi didnt decide on a team on day 1 of FA, the Clips really shoulda just swooped in on Butler and convinced him to sign before MIA had time to craft a package. MIA without Butler in 2021 is rather meh and coulda yielded a really nice FRP.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:25 am
by QRich3
I actually think it was really smart on their part to not want anything to do with Butler. They traded away a better player in Griffin because he made too much money and was not good enough. They weren't about to turn around a give more money to a worse player of the same age, who came with attitude problems too.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:36 am
by DaddyCool19
So if the Clippers chooseoption A, they keep their picks right?

I bet they could turn those picks + J Robinson into some useful PF and then roll with it

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:13 am
by The_Hater
Mamba Mentality wrote:Obviously the better scenario is the one in which they retain Shai. Remember this is the same guy that the Clippers weren't willing to trade for AD...amazing what a fear of a Lakers dynasty will make you do.


The ridiculous arrogance and self centred nature of some Laker fans always amazes me.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:40 am
by The_Hater
Prokorov wrote:
Vae Victus wrote:I'm a bit bored and i'm wondering what board consensus would be on this hypothetical scenario.

Lets say if Butler was willing to be 2nd banana to Kawhi and Kawhi is happy with that arrangements and outright signs with LAC.= to begin the team up.

If Butler comes to LAC for cap (or S&T), lets say Gallo + 2 SRPs for pure cap space goes out, SGA stays, and Kawhi signs for cap as well. Rest of the moves plays out similarly.

C - Zubac, Harrell, Kabengle
PF- Green, Harkless? (this likely wouldnt happen unless S&T shenanigans was involved in getting Butler from PHI)
SF- Kawhi, JRobinson, MacGruder
SG- Butler, Lou Will, Shamet
PG- SGA, PatBev, Mann

Kawhi plays some PF if the other team goes small at that spot. Butler can slide to 3 when that happens. Clips are thin at PF, unless Kabengele steps up in a big way, or Zubac + Harrell both can play 30+ mins without hurting spacing.

As you can see it's basically a Butler + SGA vs PG13 + Harkless? situation. I'm not gonna factor in draft picks as that makes picking the Butler + SGA combo too easy, imo. Let's just say, for next season, which move would be better. Which Clipper team would be stronger?


this isnt close. butler alone is much better then PG. then add SGA?


I’m at the the point where I’m convinced that your just a parody account.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:54 am
by Prokorov
JN61 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Vae Victus wrote:I'm a bit bored and i'm wondering what board consensus would be on this hypothetical scenario.

Lets say if Butler was willing to be 2nd banana to Kawhi and Kawhi is happy with that arrangements and outright signs with LAC.= to begin the team up.

If Butler comes to LAC for cap (or S&T), lets say Gallo + 2 SRPs for pure cap space goes out, SGA stays, and Kawhi signs for cap as well. Rest of the moves plays out similarly.

C - Zubac, Harrell, Kabengle
PF- Green, Harkless? (this likely wouldnt happen unless S&T shenanigans was involved in getting Butler from PHI)
SF- Kawhi, JRobinson, MacGruder
SG- Butler, Lou Will, Shamet
PG- SGA, PatBev, Mann

Kawhi plays some PF if the other team goes small at that spot. Butler can slide to 3 when that happens. Clips are thin at PF, unless Kabengele steps up in a big way, or Zubac + Harrell both can play 30+ mins without hurting spacing.

As you can see it's basically a Butler + SGA vs PG13 + Harkless? situation. I'm not gonna factor in draft picks as that makes picking the Butler + SGA combo too easy, imo. Let's just say, for next season, which move would be better. Which Clipper team would be stronger?


this isnt close. butler alone is much better then PG. then add SGA?

George played better offense and better defense than Butler last year, so not sure about your statement.


nope. not close. George is the most empty stats player of our generation. gets everything at the expense of the team and his defense is at best average.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:08 pm
by JN61
Prokorov wrote:
JN61 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
this isnt close. butler alone is much better then PG. then add SGA?

George played better offense and better defense than Butler last year, so not sure about your statement.


nope. not close. George is the most empty stats player of our generation. gets everything at the expense of the team and his defense is at best average.

Then I take it you didn't watch a single game of OKC before all-star break. George got big part of his offense from catch and shoot opportunities with Westbrook, thus not disturbing other offense at all, and when Westbrook sat he was a bit more iso heavy but was doing it pretty much at league best rate. On defense he was clearly OKCs best defender while motivating whole team (even Westbrook) to play defense. Before all-star break he was having DPOY type of season.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:48 pm
by TheNewEra
QRich3 wrote:I actually think it was really smart on their part to not want anything to do with Butler. They traded away a better player in Griffin because he made too much money and was not good enough. They weren't about to turn around a give more money to a worse player of the same age, who came with attitude problems too.


You have to have someone of note to lure Kawhi. The team was left scrambling trying to get Beal and Harden when getting the sidekick should of been in the master plan this whole time. You pay whatever big name brings in Kawhi and unless Kawhi said no to Butler I don’t get not pursuing him in free agency.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 pm
by Forte IV
Mamba Mentality wrote:Obviously the better scenario is the one in which they retain Shai. Remember this is the same guy that the Clippers weren't willing to trade for AD...amazing what a fear of a Lakers dynasty will make you do.


You almost made a complete nice comment about the Clippers. Almost.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:33 pm
by Mylie10
QRich3 wrote:When you have the luck to get to the point of being a contender, you're not in the business of gathering assets or winning trades anymore. It's a once in a generation opportunity and you should do everything in your power to bring yourself closer to it. So if you have to pay two 1st round picks for a 34 year old role player that's gonna give you 15MPG (totally made up hypothetical scenario), but that gets you considerably closer to a championship, you do that otherwise horrible trade in a heartbeat.

In that regard, the price for getting George was insane. But George is a clearly better player than Butler and he gets you closer to winning a championship, so that's undeniably the better choice. Not to mention he's gonna be much less of a headache and he's the first (1A 1B with Kawhi) all NBA type of player that's willingly gone out of his way to come here. That gives you a lot more security than committing to pay 34 year old Butler $38M.

Mylie10 wrote:
stormi wrote:Paul George is so much better than Jimmy Butler that it's a no brainer for me, and I love Shai


I like George way better. And I really like the guys they drafted in Kabengele and Mann who I think is a total diamond in the rough.

I watched Mann completely shut down Ja Morant in the Tourney. I'm talking only when he guarded Ja. Nobody else can stop him. But I see Mann as a sg/SF.

Anyhow, I think they are happy how it worked out and I think George fits the locker room better than Butler would.

Mann's looked amazing in summer league too, I worry his offense is way too rough to get playing time in the real NBA, but apparently Jerry West is convinced he'll be a core part of the rotation by year's end. Excited to watch how he evolves.


I see Mann as a glue type of player anyhow. He doesn't need to score to contribute. If he gets some minutes and plays really good reliable defense, then he should carve out a spot.

However based on your depth, he probably spends time in the G league getting playing time. Young guys need to play, and it's not a knock on him to go down there at times.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:43 pm
by MoneyTalks41890
PG is a better player and a better fit. Butler is too ball dominant. Also, the Sixers got J Rich in a sign and trade so Gallo and 2nds would have been unlikely.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:56 pm
by playaloc916
ken6199 wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:If you want a 5 year title window (or closer to one) PG/Harkless. If you want to be better for the next year or two, maybe Butler and SGA. Good question though. I see PG aging much better than Butler and having less injury problems. If the draft assets were factored I take Butler/SGA in a landslide. Just these 4 players though I take PG/Harkless by a small edge.

Disagree on this. The (assumed) slower decline in PG does not offset the ballhandling of SGA who I see will develop into a really solid, above average starting PG. Butler's alpha dog mentality actually will work pretty well in the current LAC culture.

I don't think Butler's personality would be the best fit with this team. FO has put in a lot of work getting in guys who really buy into the team first, blue collar, workhorse/dog mentality. Butler has the blue collar/workhorse aspect, but the team first part, not sure...
I haven't been following Butler very close, but the impression I get is that he's a bit like Chris Paul, and if you don't fit exactly what he's looking for, he won't get along with you.

To me the center piece of the team is Kawhi. Knowing his soft spoken personality, I'd want to make sure there's nothing on the team that could negatively impact him, and with Butler, although he could get along really well with him, I'd rather go with PG who seems to have a more chill vibe like Kawhi, than to take a chance on Butler.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:12 pm
by reflex35
Still PG.
Better at everything than Buttler.
Much respect for Jimmy for even becoming such a player that we started comparing him to PG. Who would have guessed that 5-6 years ago?
But PG is just a better talent. All around. And that difference is more important than SGA. Everyone talks about this potential but we had this "potential thing" for hundreds and hundreds times not working out...
I take PG and run because he is the best player in this equation.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:15 pm
by Dan Z
Mamba Mentality wrote:Obviously the better scenario is the one in which they retain Shai. Remember this is the same guy that the Clippers weren't willing to trade for AD...amazing what a fear of a Lakers dynasty will make you do.


Is that true? It sounds like there's more to that story.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:54 pm
by Forte IV
It's definitely a hard question. Paul George was arguably the best player in basketball for a few weeks there last year. SGA is gonna be a stud. But 4 year max for Butler makes me pick Paul George every day. PG's game is gonna age way better than Jimmys.

Re: Offseason LAC What If?: Butler/SGA instead of PG13

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:56 pm
by ClipsFanSince98
Forte IV wrote:It's definitely a hard question. Paul George was arguably the best player in basketball for a few weeks there last year. SGA is gonna be a stud. But 4 year max for Butler makes me pick Paul George every day. PG's game is gonna age way better than Jimmys.


Try like 3 months :D . He had a 3 month stretch of 31/8/5 I believe on stupid efficiency.