NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams

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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#141 » by NY 567 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:03 am

For clarification, I said Nash was a top 5 offensive player of all time. Obviously his defense, physical limitations, and lack of championships would leave him quite far out from top 5 all time, for me he'd probably be somewhere in the top 25-30 of all time.
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#142 » by Pennebaker » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:12 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
picc wrote:Technically, Allen Iverson is much more of a "legend" than Nash, even if you dont think he's as good a player.


Plus AI would annihilate Nash one on one.


I thought the NBA 2K series still used real basketball as its model.

Have they added moving backboards or trampolines? That could be fun.


One on one happens in every NBA game. AI became legend because of it, in fact. His first stamp on the game was crossing up MJ one on one as a rookie.
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#143 » by youngcrev » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:40 am

XxIronChainzxX wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
Crives wrote:
No Nash
Read on Twitter
?s=21


I mean the Mav's had Donny Nelson Dirk and Finley, Josh Howard etc, that has something to do with it. Nash had Dantoni who turned Lin into Linsanity and Chris Duhon into a 10 pts 7 assist starter. Nash is a great player. But he isn't an MVP caliber player without Dantoni's system and the other pieces he had around him (Stat, Marion, Diaw, Barbosa that allowed that team to revolutionize small ball lineups. Just my opinion.

He's not taking a team as far as A.I did without another player who can score 13 points. And the team he left won without him.


We know this is false. Nash carried a team without Amar'e to the WCF. A team that sent Kobe packing in a year he was lighting up teams (in fact I think it was his 81 point season). Nash would absolutely be able to lead a team to the Finals in the utter trash heap that was the East during that same period of time.

Nash lost Joe Johnson and Amare for a full season and got a team that went to the WCF to the WCF IIRC.

Also, I'm pretty sure Marion's own offensive peformance was fed by Nash.


Marion was an All Star before Nash's arrival. His raw numbers really didn't change much, though his efficiency went up. I'm not sure how much I'd attribute that to Nash over D'Antoni's offense though.

They also didn't lose Johnson to injury, they traded him for Diaw (who was a stud that year) and picks.
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#144 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:50 am

Pennebaker wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
Plus AI would annihilate Nash one on one.


I thought the NBA 2K series still used real basketball as its model.

Have they added moving backboards or trampolines? That could be fun.


One on one happens in every NBA game. AI became legend because of it, in fact. His first stamp on the game was crossing up MJ one on one as a rookie.


Passing happens a lot more frequently.
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#145 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:02 am

youngcrev wrote:Marion was an All Star before Nash's arrival. His raw numbers really didn't change much, though his efficiency went up. I'm not sure how much I'd attribute that to Nash over D'Antoni's offense though.

They also didn't lose Johnson to injury, they traded him for Diaw (who was a stud that year) and picks.


Marion's efficiency went up front what we would not call "poor and not really a great option" to something providing definite positive impact even amongst other good options.

Re: Nash or D'Antoni's offense. False dichotomy. The reason D'Antoni's career is so spotty is that his offenses give an unprecedented amount of in vivo control to his floor general, and only someone really, really good can do it. Also, while D'Antoni absolute deserves praise for pace & space ideas, it's typically acknowledged that D'Antoni built around what he was already seeing Nash do in practice. As in, when Nash arrived and scrimmages began, D'Antoni was so impressed by what he saw he went all in on it. It was his willingness to just go for it that allowed him to be the spearhead other coaches weren't as much as it was specific tactics.

Re: Diaw was a stud that year. And that was the highpoint of his career. A cliche with Nash. Marion, Amare, Diaw, and Johnson as well: All of them played their most impactful basketball within the ecosystem that blossomed around Nash, and when they left it wasn't the same.

(Many probably think the Joe Johnson statement is silly because of the greater accolades he got in Atlanta, but he got those accolades because he was the team's volume scorer, and the truth was that volume scoring never really moved the needle for them. They were a team good enough that they were going to have guys considered for all-star status, and the first guy everyone looked at was the volume scorer because that's what people typically do. Johnson would have had a more impactful career if he'd stayed in Phoenix and really honed his off-ball shooting game.)
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#146 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:35 am

NY 567 wrote:For clarification, I said Nash was a top 5 offensive player of all time. Obviously his defense, physical limitations, and lack of championships would leave him quite far out from top 5 all time, for me he'd probably be somewhere in the top 25-30 of all time.


Yup, that's the right distinction.

To go into a bit more detail, here are 10 guys I'd tend to consider if I were looking to do a Top 5:

Oscar Robertson - fulcrum of the first offensive dynasty, in the sense of regularly having the best team Offensive Rating. Clearly the most impactful offensive player of the '60s.

Jerry West - a "what if?" candidate. He was clearly the #2 offensive player of his decade in terms of what he actually accomplished, but he wasn't utilized well due to Elgin Baylor's looming presence. The way he learned new skills and worked so well in the Princeton offense to me really indicates that he probably had as high of a BBIQ as anyone else plus a great shot. He maybe should have been seen as the offensive GOAT all the way until the '80s, but because of how things played out.

Larry Bird - if forced to rate BBIQ in terms of the ability to read & react to what was going on on the floor, I'd pick Bird. They way he approached the game put something of a ceiling on how far you could optimize the team around him, but it made him more portable than dominant on-ball players such as...

Magic Johnson - fulcrum of the second offensive dynasty, and typically considered the best offensive player of all time among those who see offense as more than scoring.

Michael Jordan - the most effective scorer of all-time.

Charles Barkley - we can knock him down because of his spotty attitude, but Barkley was an astonishing force who could dominate on the interior, run the break, and shoot from a variety of ranges. I honestly think you have to wonder whether Jordan in Barkley's body is better than Jordan was.

Shaquille O"Neal - the only classic big man I'd consider. His impact was astonishing despite all his lazy intangibles.

Steve Nash - fulcrum of the third offensive dynasty, which would eventually revolutionize the game itself in a way Oscar's would not. Magic was more complicated because...

LeBron James - the league now has a lot of players who are essentially doing LeBron impressions. LeBron was inspired by Magic, but Magic was seen as a fluke that couldn't be emulated...which is another way of saying people were wrong about Magic. No you can't do everything that Magic does as well as Magic does it, but relying on one mega-brain to power your entire offense actually works pretty dang well...particularly when you've got 3-point shooters around you.

Steph Curry - fulcrum of the fourth offensive dynasty, and the current cutting edge of what's possible in basketball. A serious candidate to become the offensive GOAT, but right now his spottiness makes it hard to pick him.

In terms of the actual ranking, it's hard because of the different eras.

If Jordan plays today like he played back in the day, he wouldn't be as good relative to others using state-of-the-art strategy. The moment the NBA realized that role players could shoot 3's really well, that made the value of volume scoring lower and the value of passing higher. Jordan would have to adapt, and if he could, he might well be the best offensive player of the current era.

Should we hold the fact that he wasn't using 2010s techniques in 1990 against him?

What about Kobe? Similar story with slightly like Jordan-esque talent but better long-distance shooting. I really think if he were born later he could play the LeBron role really well...but the thing is that he was actually younger than Nash. The new paradigm was right in front of him and he was skeptic #1. How much do we hold it against Kobe that he didn't adapt when he could have when he won 5 titles?

And then there's Jerry Freaking West. Built similarly to Dwyane Wade with the same freakish long arms, better shooting, better playmaking, savvier defense, willing and able to adapt from year to year and learn new systems better than everyone else. What might he have been if people had understood what was possible?

And then how do you compare Bird to Magic? Their impact is of a different shape because they approach the game differently. How do we say who was truly better?

Gun to my head I tend to say something like:
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Nash
4. Jordan
5. LeBron

Before anyone asks: If you want to say that LeBron should be higher than Nash because of superior stamina, durability, etc, I have no quibble with you. I'm just going by how I tend to think of them playing their best.
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#147 » by TroubleS0me » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 pm

All this talk about Iverson leading his team to the finals & Nash couldnt do it. I would like to see those 01 sixers vs those
07 spurs
06 Mavs

Vice Versa,
Suns vs '01 Bucks, Raptors, Pacers

smh, cmon yall
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#148 » by Pennebaker » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:07 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I thought the NBA 2K series still used real basketball as its model.

Have they added moving backboards or trampolines? That could be fun.


One on one happens in every NBA game. AI became legend because of it, in fact. His first stamp on the game was crossing up MJ one on one as a rookie.


Passing happens a lot more frequently.


That's why Iverson was able to average 7.9 assists per game while also leading the league in scoring.

There was a 5 year stretch of Iverson's career where he averaged 28.7 points and 7.3 assists per game (that's a ton of passing for a chucker!). That's 43.3 points per game minimum scoring+assists. That's remarkable considering the slower pace of the league at that time.

During that same span of time (2003-2008) peak Steve Nash won 2 MVPs while accounting for only 38.3 points per game via scoring and assists. That's 5 points less than Iverson. :(

Peak Nash was not as good as non-peak Allen Iverson.
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#149 » by Dnt hate » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:57 am

NY 567 wrote:
Hroz wrote:
NY 567 wrote:Nash is a top 5 offensive player of all time. Iverson is a chucker, the only reason he got the platform to heave up his nonsense is because nobody knew better. And I find it curious that Shaq has a problem with Nash "stealing" his MVP, but no issue over Iverson winning one over him, despite the fact that Nash had a much more worthy MVP than Iverson did, and Shaq was still in his prime when Allen won his. Definitely very interesting.


A) Don't be ridiculous with Nash as top 5 all time. Dude couldn't score effectively. He always had great teammates. He's a great passer that is all.
B) Shaq came 3rd in MVP voting that year. If Iverson stole it which nobody actually believes. Then he stole it from TD.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.html

I mean AI won 93 of 124 first votes. That's not stealing that's a damn avalanche.


Nash has led most of the greatest offenses of all time across a decade and two different teams. If he's not a top 5 offensive player of all time, he's number 6 or 7. The game isn't all about volume scoring.

That's great that AI got most of the first place votes that year. It doesn't change the fact that he had zero business even being in consideration to win the award, let alone actually winning it. It just goes to show that the voters at the time had no idea what they were doing.

Your just a huge AI hater, if you take him out of the team sixers don't even sniff the playoffs, he led them to the best record, just stop buddy it's sad
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#150 » by Gregoire » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:33 am

Offensive prime:

Magic
Bird
MJ
Curry
Lebron
Durant
Kobe
Dirk
Shaq
Barkley
Nash
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy tho. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them from the league. The refs literally Nerf LeBron to protect the league. That's gonna be one of the most enduring takes for me from his career. :lol:
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Re: NBA 2K20 picks All-Decade "Legendary" Teams 

Post#151 » by permaximum » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:49 am

This forum's butthurtness about Iverson never stops.


They pick the next 10 greatest players and everyone votes for AI unanimously, this forum gets shocked.

They pick the decades' best fives every now and then and Iverson is always on that five and this forum again gets mad.

Shaq says Iverson is top 5 player ever, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Thomas etc. says he is the best pound for pound ever this forum gets shocked again.

Iverson wins the MVP in a landslide two decades ago and never one bit of doubt in anyone's mind but this forum is still butthurt about it.

Shaq thinks Iverson deserved the MVP that year but Nash didn't deserve it in 2005 but this forum thinks completely the opposite.


Perhaps it's you guys that don't know basketball and not those players, former players, GMs, coaches, media guys and public opinion.

If you only knew a tiny bit of statistical learning, you would know how bad those metrics like +/-, PER, WS, BPM, RAPM, RPM are. You don't even know the small differences in TS% is completely within the estimation error and 5% TS difference in the whole season perhaps can impact 2 or 3 games at most in reality. And because of the rules, physicality and ball physics of the game average TS% differed greatly between eras.

If 2001 happened again with todays knowledge, Iverson would still get 93/124 first place votes in the MVP voting, because voters actually do watch the games. None of those so-called advanced metrics would matter.

To put it simply in your language, players' MPG is statistically as good as an evaluator for player quality compared with those so-called advanced metrics.,

You ignorants constantly talk about something you don't even have a clue about.

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