Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG?

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Dirk or KG

Dirk
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75%
Kevin Garnett
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25%
 
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#61 » by Lord Cuban » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:32 am

Dirk Was always the Superior player and had the best career... Nothing that KG did in the playoff's is comparable with the Dirk 2006 Run. And don't forget that KG was killed vs Dirk
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#62 » by Zeitgeister » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:32 am

I don't really get the impression that Dirk is remembered more fondly than KG, KG is definitely the more memorable personality. There is a certain Pavlovian (be like Mike) response where the casual NBA viewer sees the ball go in the hole and crowns that shooter. Where legend, and greatness is determined by how "like Mike" a person is. There is a lot of nuance that is lost in that approach, of course. Nevermind the fact that the actual greatest winner in NBA history was nothing "like Mike" at all.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#63 » by pootbrah » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:41 am

Zeitgeister wrote:I don't really get the impression that Dirk is remembered more fondly than KG, KG is definitely the more memorable personality. There is a certain Pavlovian (be like Mike) response where the casual NBA viewer sees the ball go in the hole and crowns that shooter. Where legend, and greatness is determined by how "like Mike" a person is. There is a lot of nuance that is lost in that approach, of course. Nevermind the fact that the actual greatest winner in NBA history was nothing "like Mike" at all.


this might be my concussion talking but what the fook are you on about?
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#64 » by Pg81 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:51 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:saying Dirk won with lousy casts is hilarious. Just because Dirk did not play with superstars (he did play with Nash, who people forget or pretend was a scrub back then, he wasn't) he always had good players. Mark Cuban doesn't just let his team rot, he is a super aggressive owner.

KG's teams were way worse than Dirk's teams. And pretending that KG's career didn't exist after he left Minny is pretty unfair. KG was why the Celtics were dominant, not Pierce or Allen - they had the best rated defense of the modern era, do y'all think that was cause of 8 minutes of Tony Allen?


KG's best cast was in 2004 (and the only good player on his team got injured in the conference finals), and that was worse than many of Dirk's teams to put things in perspective. Kevin Garnett has never gotten upset in the playoffs either.

Saying that Dirk > Kg because Dirk beat KG in the playoffs is the same thing as saying the Mavericks = Timberwolves - in which case if you think that, you are an idiot.
Cookin Baskets wrote:Dirk stuck with one franchise that has to count for something. Through the good and the bad. Arguably Dirk should have won more titles. He was part of many great teams. He gave his whole career to Dallas, in comparison KG struggled to get past first round for years with Wolves and finally won a title with the original super team in Boston.


KG was traded...he never wanted to leave Minny.


The team was never good. 2006 team had no business even going to the WCF. Nash was not Suns Nash yet which was his peak. After that, I say it again, the team mate who was essentially his right hand man was Jason Terry for the rest of his career after Nash left. Otherwise he had no stable core that lasted more than 2-3 years and most of these players like Howard or Daniels became utterly irrelevant after they left. Players like Kidd or Marion came as vets who were past or way past their prime. It did not help that Cuban liked to waste money on fairly average to mediocre talent like Mayo, Ellis or Parsons in an effort to get some talent around Dirk. Dirk's team were failing hard without him, as seen in 2011 when the team went 2-7 and that was the case his entire career. Yeah most people know that Minny was worse, so what? Boston had more talent than Dirk ever had. Rondo, Pierce and Allen, that would have been a wet dream for Mavs fans to see around Dirk. Say what you want, but Dirk was able to lift a variety of teams and systems to top 5 in the West for basically all of his prime. Meanwhile KG has nothing to show for apart from 2004.
As to KG, despite them having the best defense, without Pierce and Allen KG would not have been able to win a title, considering how they came from the weak east and struggled a lot to get to the finals I dare say the Celtics and KG have become mightily overrated at this point.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#65 » by Yinwest » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:55 am

Baski wrote:
Yinwest wrote:
JDR720 wrote:Dirk. He is arguably the greatest German athlete ever, and that is pretty legendary.

Really? There are a lot of legendary German athletes.

:lol: :lol: Seriously. The sheer number of football players alone.

Exactly, Beckenbauer, Kahn, Muller, Matthaus, Rummenigge etc....

Dirk’s great, we know it, but he is not GOAT German athlete.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#66 » by Yinwest » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:57 am

And how about Schumacher :lol:
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#67 » by Pg81 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:06 am

Yinwest wrote:
Baski wrote:
Yinwest wrote:Really? There are a lot of legendary German athletes.

:lol: :lol: Seriously. The sheer number of football players alone.

Exactly, Beckenbauer, Kahn, Muller, Matthaus, Rummenigge etc....

Dirk’s great, we know it, but he is not GOAT German athlete.


Dirk certainly has a good case though. In regards to how much he has popularized and how much of a carry job he had in Dallas while the guys you mention had the luxury of playing on the most dominant German team, the FC Bayern München, of the past 4-5 decades I dare say he even has a really good case against them in fact.

Yinwest wrote:And how about Schumacher :lol:


Again, a sport so different you can hardly compare. I am not even sure if F1 is more popular than basketball as of now. Probably was before Dirk came but for the past 10-15 years basketball has gained quite a bit of popularity and in no small parts due to Dirk.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#68 » by Showdown » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:27 am

Dirk is much better player, always was on top with his team and always above 50 wins even though some of those teams didn't had some great players, was best player in the NBA in few years while KG never was that good, destroyed him in h2h regularly, much better offensive player, had same number of defensive rebounds as KG but since he was stretch big he didn't get much offensive rebounds so his total rebounds number look worse, had much more success in PO, was able to win title as a first option on a team, was clutch unlike KG who would always become passive in 4th quarter on offense.

When we talk about who is more legendary it was harder to tell because before 2011 Dirk had more PO success and more memorable moments, was popular in the US and overseas , had great signature move and was unstopable but was underrated by the media and fans . KG on the other side would always get pass for lack of team success, people liked his clothes, his antics on the court and how he talk in front of camera. He had some great moments in 2004 and win with Celtics and it is posible moments only cemented that. If we look situation before 2011 KG was seen as more legendary player than Dirk but that run changed everything because those who were underrating him realized how good he is and that run alone is great because how great he was, how he beat team with great players while he was only star on his team and how he beat Lebron's superteam in the Finals as underdog. When you combine things that he done before that run, 2011 run , his success in international competitions with mediocre german team , fact that he is best european player ever and in conversation for best foreign player ever, his signature move and how he changed the game he is definately more legendary player than KG.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#69 » by mszymko » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:36 am

KG was my favorite when I was a kid. I can remember the SI mag article about him coming out of HS and how talented/skinny he was etc... Looking back its kind of odd to me that KG was such a phenom and I don't recall Dirk making as big of noise coming into the league, especially considering now that 7 footers that can shoot mid range are yesterdays news and big men that can shoot 3's are the new trend a la Dirk.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#70 » by Showdown » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:07 pm

Pg81 wrote:
Baski wrote:
Yinwest wrote:Really? There are a lot of legendary German athletes.

:lol: :lol: Seriously. The sheer number of football players alone.


I was 9 years old when I was watching our national team win the championship and my father took me to the celebrations in Frankfurt a.M. I was a big fans of guys like Völler, Klinsmann, Hässler, etc. None of these compare to Dirk, German football was about team first and foremost. The only one who comes close in terms of public perception is Beckenbauer, and he is somewhat overrated at this point but what Dirk did to further the popularity, how a minor sport which had hardly any traction became a lot more popular in Germany, culminating in fans across the country staying up late night to root for him in 2006 and 2011 for the title, easily eclipses Beckenbauer, and I dare say that relative to the sport Dirk was better than Beckenbauer. By the way, in my opinion the best football player Germany has ever produced was Gerd Müller whom hardly anyone knows at this point apart hardcore fans.
As to Steffi Graf, tennis is far too different to draw conclusions, in tennis you only have to carry yourself, team sports you carry and get carried by your team. Dirk never had the opportunity to show what he can do if he had actually great talent in its prime. He never had a Stockton, a Pippen, a Wade, etc. as his right hand man on court. For most of his career he had Jason Terry who was not half the player these guys were who were stars/superstars in their own right.


Stefi Graf shouldn't be in consideration because she wasn't best in her sport, Monica Seles was much better. Beckenbauer is one of the best players on his position and he revoulitionazed football by being first modern back, defensive player that was active on offense . Schumacher is also better because he is the best F1 driver and was active when F1 was at peak of it's popularity. Other football players aren't better than Dirk and other sports aren't big enough to take players from those sports in consideration.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#71 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:29 pm

They both are all time historically great players so both have made an impact on the history of the league....kg was the better player tho
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#72 » by benson13 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:31 pm

They’re both living in Duncan’s shadow.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#73 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:31 pm

Showdown wrote:Dirk is much better player, always was on top with his team and always above 50 wins even though some of those teams didn't had some great players, was best player in the NBA in few years while KG never was that good, destroyed him in h2h regularly, much better offensive player, had same number of defensive rebounds as KG but since he was stretch big he didn't get much offensive rebounds so his total rebounds number look worse, had much more success in PO, was able to win title as a first option on a team, was clutch unlike KG who would always become passive in 4th quarter on offense.

When we talk about who is more legendary it was harder to tell because before 2011 Dirk had more PO success and more memorable moments, was popular in the US and overseas , had great signature move and was unstopable but was underrated by the media and fans . KG on the other side would always get pass for lack of team success, people liked his clothes, his antics on the court and how he talk in front of camera. He had some great moments in 2004 and win with Celtics and it is posible moments only cemented that. If we look situation before 2011 KG was seen as more legendary player than Dirk but that run changed everything because those who were underrating him realized how good he is and that run alone is great because how great he was, how he beat team with great players while he was only star on his team and how he beat Lebron's superteam in the Finals as underdog. When you combine things that he done before that run, 2011 run , his success in international competitions with mediocre german team , fact that he is best european player ever and in conversation for best foreign player ever, his signature move and how he changed the game he is definately more legendary player than KG.


When was dirk the best player in the nba? Much of his career overlapped with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron ,wade etc
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#74 » by jamaalstar21 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:09 pm

VDT wrote:I feel Garnett is getting a little overrated in realgm based on his advanced stats.

He was good or great in a lot of things but the fact that he was not very good go to guy is a pretty big flaw for a player of his caliber. In fact from the top 20 or so players he is probably the worst at it. And unless he plays in a stacked team like the Warriors it puts a hard cap on the team' s ceiling. And possibly a cap that advanced metrics cannot "see" if he plays within himself and focus on the things he does best. In a way similar, but not the same, to some roleplayers that have good advanced stats because they are good at what they are doing.

What i am trying to say is that his role on his team was not that of a typical lead player, he was more Pippen than Jordan and judging him based on his advanced stats tends to overrate him a bit i feel.


big disagree, but only on the weight of value of him being a "go to guy".
KG was definitely at least a "good" go to guy. In his physical prime he averaged between 22-24 points and 5-6 assists on good efficiency. Now I will agree that KG is not as good of a go to scorer as most of the other guys in the top 20 all-time NBA players. His lack of lower body strength meant that his post game was never going to be Duncan/Olajuwon/Shaq level devastating. I have definitely seen KG take over games with scoring, but not as consistently as greater scorers.

Why I would argue that KG's overall game make him arguably better than lot of top 20-30 guys is that you can play KG with anyone. You don't need a top 3 NBA scorer/playmaker when you have KG on your team. You can get by with sub all-star alpha dog scorer like a 33 year old Latrell Sprewell and a 34 year Sam Cassell. KG won 58 games and went to the Western Conference Finals with those guys (+Trenton Hassell and a center platoon of Mark Madsen, Ervin Johnson and Michael Olowokandi). An upgrade of that was 30 year old Paul Pierce, who was ideal as primary scoring option (but not ideal as the best player on a team).

One reason I think that guys underrated KG is this overimportance on go-to scoring. You don't need a Lebron/Kobe/Kawhi/Durant level scorer with KG. You can get by with a 2nd or 3rd or even 4th tier guy as long as they're a hungry scorer. Think possibilities like Jamal Murray, CJ McCollum, Donovan Mitchell, D'Angelo Russell, Brad Beal, Booker. Guys you currently think you're headed nowhere with. Pair them with KG and all of a sudden this team is a deep playoff threat. KG could space the floor, pass, score 20-30 in a variety of ways, play pick & roll as either the ball handler or the finisher. He was a B+ level scorer, passer and shooter with A+ defense, rebounding. To me, his ability to play with guys who need the ball to be successful is the reason KG has smart basketball people arguing for his legacy as an absolute top tier player. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Harden (or even Nash/CP3 in a way) need great players to fall in line/take a back seat behind their ball dominant games. KG could play his best game while letting other good players play their best game.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#75 » by AussieRules » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:11 pm

Dirk dominates KG

Not a fair comparison
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#76 » by Showdown » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:19 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:
Showdown wrote:Dirk is much better player, always was on top with his team and always above 50 wins even though some of those teams didn't had some great players, was best player in the NBA in few years while KG never was that good, destroyed him in h2h regularly, much better offensive player, had same number of defensive rebounds as KG but since he was stretch big he didn't get much offensive rebounds so his total rebounds number look worse, had much more success in PO, was able to win title as a first option on a team, was clutch unlike KG who would always become passive in 4th quarter on offense.

When we talk about who is more legendary it was harder to tell because before 2011 Dirk had more PO success and more memorable moments, was popular in the US and overseas , had great signature move and was unstopable but was underrated by the media and fans . KG on the other side would always get pass for lack of team success, people liked his clothes, his antics on the court and how he talk in front of camera. He had some great moments in 2004 and win with Celtics and it is posible moments only cemented that. If we look situation before 2011 KG was seen as more legendary player than Dirk but that run changed everything because those who were underrating him realized how good he is and that run alone is great because how great he was, how he beat team with great players while he was only star on his team and how he beat Lebron's superteam in the Finals as underdog. When you combine things that he done before that run, 2011 run , his success in international competitions with mediocre german team , fact that he is best european player ever and in conversation for best foreign player ever, his signature move and how he changed the game he is definately more legendary player than KG.


When was dirk the best player in the nba? Much of his career overlapped with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron ,wade etc


From 2006 to 2011 he was always among two-three best players where you could argue that he was best player with 2011 where he was definately best player.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#77 » by jamaalstar21 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:24 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:
Showdown wrote:Dirk is much better player, always was on top with his team and always above 50 wins even though some of those teams didn't had some great players, was best player in the NBA in few years while KG never was that good, destroyed him in h2h regularly, much better offensive player, had same number of defensive rebounds as KG but since he was stretch big he didn't get much offensive rebounds so his total rebounds number look worse, had much more success in PO, was able to win title as a first option on a team, was clutch unlike KG who would always become passive in 4th quarter on offense.

When we talk about who is more legendary it was harder to tell because before 2011 Dirk had more PO success and more memorable moments, was popular in the US and overseas , had great signature move and was unstopable but was underrated by the media and fans . KG on the other side would always get pass for lack of team success, people liked his clothes, his antics on the court and how he talk in front of camera. He had some great moments in 2004 and win with Celtics and it is posible moments only cemented that. If we look situation before 2011 KG was seen as more legendary player than Dirk but that run changed everything because those who were underrating him realized how good he is and that run alone is great because how great he was, how he beat team with great players while he was only star on his team and how he beat Lebron's superteam in the Finals as underdog. When you combine things that he done before that run, 2011 run , his success in international competitions with mediocre german team , fact that he is best european player ever and in conversation for best foreign player ever, his signature move and how he changed the game he is definately more legendary player than KG.


When was dirk the best player in the nba? Much of his career overlapped with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron ,wade etc


The time in between Duncan/Shaq prime and Lebron's takeover involved a less clear NBA hierarchy. Kobe stans will scream bloody murder for this, but from 2005-2008 had Steve Nash, Dirk, Kobe winning MVPs. For Dirk it was going to the finals in 2006 (and losing a highly/hotly debated NBA finals) and then winning MVP the next year. Dirk proceeded to suffer the lowest point of his career (losing in the first round to the Warriors) and Kobe won MVP the next year. Dirk then sort of flew under the radar until his 2011 comback. If you look at MVP voting year to year it paints a pretty clear picture as long as you remember what else happened the years you're talking about. With Wade, you can't really argue there was a year when he was the NBA's best player. His best argument would be when he won the title in 2006 or his best MVP voting year was 2009 when he finished a close 3rd after Kobe (Lebron won). Kobe, Nash and Dirk can all make completely credible arguments to having 1-2 year stretches as the NBA's best player. To deny that is to oversimply for the purpose of pumping up a certain players legacy.

We like to look back imagine a simple universe where the league went Bird to Magic to Jordan to Shaq to Kobe to Lebron. But when you go into the details, not all those guys had these massive stretches as the league's no brainer best player.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#78 » by jamaalstar21 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:35 pm

audiosway wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:Arguably the greatest offensive power forward ever vs. arguably the greatest defensive power forward ever.

KG's doomed never-ending slog on awful Timberwolves teams ended by immediately winning a title as soon as he got shipped to a talented team. Screaming anything is possible, winning DPOY while captaining one of the greatest defenses ever. KG is the most versatile and ferocious front court player to ever play. Despite being a 20+ppg scorer most of his career, what made him special was his elite defense, incredible passing, solid shooting, elite rebounding. He did it all like almost no one else has.

vs.

Dirk's 2011 mega alpha dog title where he took down every big boss the decade had in one legendary playoff run. Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Bosh, Gasol, Aldridge... all lay in ruin at the big german's feet. Regardless of that run, I feel like casual fans dont understand that Dirk is one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. His humiliating loss to the we believe warriors makes people think that Dirk was soft and needed to toughen up, or needed to figure some stuff out. This guy was unstoppable in the playoffs pretty much every year. He went to the WCF as a 24 year old and went to the finals twice. His team was just never quite as good as Duncan's Spurs or Shaq's Lakers. He played in the West his whole career. It's not crazy to think that if Dallas was an Eastern Conference team, they might have played in 9 finals or something crazy like that. Dirk's playoff stats are insane. Look em up. I've even heard very convincing research that Dirk is a top 3 all-time playoff scorer (Ben from Thinking Basketball)

Pretty good layout of it. What people miss is that Dirk led that Mavs team that never truly had a 2nd star to the playoffs and 50 wins for 11 years straight. 3 WCF, 2 Finals appearances, and taking out all of those teams/superstars in the process of winning a title. Phil Jackson was only ever swept 1 time. 2011 by Dirk after winning back to back titles and being heavy favorites to come out of the West.

KG was a great defensive player but never could really lead those Minny teams to anything more than a 1st round sweep to...Dirk.

Dirk was simply unguardable. He was an average defender but very good rebounder and simply clutch. When the team needed points Dirk got them. He was able to drag some pretty average teams of role players to the playoffs time after time. KG did get his title. However, he needed Pierce, Rondo, and Ray Allen to do it. Dirk did it with Tyson Chandler, a 38 year old Kidd, and 34 year old Jason Terry as his best players. 6th all time scorer and redefining the position of a 4. The stretch big exists because of Dirk. That alone is enough to make him a legend bigger than KG.

KG was a great player and a legend himself. Tim Duncan was just a better version of him.


Ya I don't agree with the equation of Dirk and KG's supporting casts. Dirk might not have quite played with the talent level that Lebron or Kobe enjoyed at their peaks, but Dirk played on some very talented teams. Not having a second star? Nash made all-nba alongside Dirk (before becoming back to back MVPs after leaving). Dirk was surrounded by lots of depth and talent for most of his career (until Cuban went star chasing after the title). Finley, Nash, Nick the Quick, Jamison, Kidd, Terry, Marion, Chandler, Devin Harris, old Stackhouse and Vince, a few good years of Josh Howard. KG's squads were absolute trash. His best teammates were an injured Terrell Brandon, a 19 year old Stephon Marbury, Wally Szerbiak, and one final magic year of goodness from Sprewell and Sam Cassell (they went to the WCF that year even though that roster was still trash). I think the KG vs. Dirk argument is a good one, but saying that Dirk dragged bad teams and KG didn't isn't fair.
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#79 » by C-Melo Man » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:52 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Well both players are about equal but Dirks career was more unique so I take him as far as being more legendary.

However, Dirk's 2011 run gets slightly overrated, it wasn't on the level of 1994 Hakeem or 2003 Duncan or 2019 Kawhi.

His best series was vs nick freaking Collison. Nick collison really? Any top 50 player ever can light his ass up. Heat LeBron and Wade didn't figure out how to co exist yet, Pau Gasol was having personal issues and was playing soft as hell. Dirk was great but the circumstances of his opponents made the run slightly overrated.

You can make a case for 94 Hakeem Rockets (my favorite team at the time) & 2003 Duncan Spurs, but Dirk's 2011 run blows 2019 Kawhi run out of the water & I love Kawhi. Kawhi had Kyle Lowry (All-Star PG), Danny Green (amazing 3&D player), Pascal Siakam (rising star), Serge Ibaka, Marc Gasol (former DPOY & All-Star), & a deep bench. Dirk had bench scorer Jason Terry & experienced vets Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, etc. Dirk didn't face an easy opponent during his run like Kawhi did with the Orlando Magic :lol: (he definitely wouldn't have allowed the Magic to win the first game on the road). Dirk had to go through the reigning champion Lakers, a young talented OKC club, the Trailblazers, & LBJ (who choked)/D-Wade/Bosh led Heat. Before the 2011 run, I wasn't a fan of Dirk because I thought he didn't have the physical & mental toughness to lead a team to the championship. When I saw him play that playoff run, I immediately became a fan as I watched him play unbelievable basketball showing toughness I didn't see earlier in his career (he had to overcome that terrible first round loss to the We Believe Warriors years prior).
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Re: Who's a more "legendary" player, Dirk or KG? 

Post#80 » by freethedevil » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:25 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:Arguably the greatest offensive power forward ever vs. arguably the greatest defensive power forward ever.

KG's doomed never-ending slog on awful Timberwolves teams ended by immediately winning a title as soon as he got shipped to a talented team. Screaming anything is possible, winning DPOY while captaining one of the greatest defenses ever. KG is the most versatile and ferocious front court player to ever play. Despite being a 20+ppg scorer most of his career, what made him special was his elite defense, incredible passing, solid shooting, elite rebounding. He did it all like almost no one else has.
)

This is a pretty decent case actually. Dirk's 11 run was themore compelling narrative, but at broad strokes kg was the next big thing in the nba, fell into obscurity, and finallly got the ring that redeemed him.

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