RealGM

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:58 pm**

What do y'all think of his defense now?

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:04 pm**

His reputation as a bad defender was always poorly applied to him. Harden is an excellent defender. He just takes possessions off.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:07 pm**

He is just like any high usage offensive guy, they rest on defense.

See Kawhi's plummeting defense and Kobe in in the 2000s.

Guys that go 100% all the time have short careers and get injured. The human body just can't handle that.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:55 pm**

ellobo wrote:Steph Curry and James Harden (NOT meant sarcastically).

In another thread, I posted the Synergy Sports playtype defensive stats from NBA.com for Harden this past season:
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 81.6th percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

I just looked up Curry's numbers, and they are more pedestrian, but still above average across the board:
Post up: 53.4th percentile (6% of possessions)
Isolation: 59th percentile (9.6% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 52nd percentile (32% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 75.5th percentile (2.4% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 72nd percentile (29.3% of possessions)
Off screen: 51st percentile (5.4% of possessions)
Off handoff: 57th pecentile (11.3% of possessions)

Both guys are routinely lambasted for not playing defense, hence they are underrated.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1861095#p76817397

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 pm**

He’s above average at some aspects (such as in the post) and awful at others (being beat off the dribble and perimeter defense).

Overall he’s turned from a complete liability on defense to average which is a huge jump considering how good he is on the offensive end.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:48 pm**

ken6199 wrote:
ellobo wrote:Steph Curry and James Harden (NOT meant sarcastically).

In another thread, I posted the Synergy Sports playtype defensive stats from NBA.com for Harden this past season:
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 81.6th percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

I just looked up Curry's numbers, and they are more pedestrian, but still above average across the board:
Post up: 53.4th percentile (6% of possessions)
Isolation: 59th percentile (9.6% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 52nd percentile (32% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 75.5th percentile (2.4% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 72nd percentile (29.3% of possessions)
Off screen: 51st percentile (5.4% of possessions)
Off handoff: 57th pecentile (11.3% of possessions)

Both guys are routinely lambasted for not playing defense, hence they are underrated.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1861095#p76817397

Just to add some eye test context to the 90th percentile post up defense, Harden's post defense is not just good by the numbers, it's spectacular to watch. When he switches onto a bigger player, as he does on many possessions, he is almost impossible to exploit in the post. He doesn't just hold his position and contest well, he gets tons of deflections and steals and forces bad shots. He consistently makes opposing bigs look silly. Any opposing team trying to pound the ball into the post because their big has a "mismatch" with Harden is just shooting itself in the head (not the foot).

Like any offensive star, he's not always going to be locked in, but he defends the post like that's the only thing earning him minutes.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:03 pm**

ellobo wrote:
ken6199 wrote:
ellobo wrote:Steph Curry and James Harden (NOT meant sarcastically).

In another thread, I posted the Synergy Sports playtype defensive stats from NBA.com for Harden this past season:
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 81.6th percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

I just looked up Curry's numbers, and they are more pedestrian, but still above average across the board:
Post up: 53.4th percentile (6% of possessions)
Isolation: 59th percentile (9.6% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 52nd percentile (32% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 75.5th percentile (2.4% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 72nd percentile (29.3% of possessions)
Off screen: 51st percentile (5.4% of possessions)
Off handoff: 57th pecentile (11.3% of possessions)

Both guys are routinely lambasted for not playing defense, hence they are underrated.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1861095#p76817397

Just to add some eye test context to the 90th percentile post up defense, Harden's post defense is not just good by the numbers, it's spectacular to watch. When he switches onto a bigger player, as he does on many possessions, he is almost impossible to exploit in the post. He doesn't just hold his position and contest well, he gets tons of deflections and steals and forces bad shots. He consistently makes opposing bigs look silly. Any opposing team trying to pound the ball into the post because their big has a "mismatch" with Harden is just shooting itself in the head (not the foot).

Like any offensive star, he's not always going to be locked in, but he defends the post like that's the only thing earning him minutes.

Harden made Towns look positively silly in the playoffs a while ago when the wolves were trying to isolate him in the post

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:08 am**

It's weird how much he declined on defense after he had a reputation as a solid defender when he was with OKC.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:23 am**

ken6199 wrote:
ellobo wrote:Steph Curry and James Harden (NOT meant sarcastically).

In another thread, I posted the Synergy Sports playtype defensive stats from NBA.com for Harden this past season:
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 81.6th percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

I just looked up Curry's numbers, and they are more pedestrian, but still above average across the board:
Post up: 53.4th percentile (6% of possessions)
Isolation: 59th percentile (9.6% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 52nd percentile (32% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 75.5th percentile (2.4% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 72nd percentile (29.3% of possessions)
Off screen: 51st percentile (5.4% of possessions)
Off handoff: 57th pecentile (11.3% of possessions)

Both guys are routinely lambasted for not playing defense, hence they are underrated.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1861095#p76817397

The difference is that the second player has consistently graded out as a positive defensively and the first player has consistently made his team's defense worse. Probably has something to do with the fact that one is hid in the post, while the other is actually used in a variety of settings.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:24 am**

Young gun 6 wrote:He’s above average at some aspects (such as in the post) and awful at others (being beat off the dribble and perimeter defense).

Overall he’s turned from a complete liability on defense to average which is a huge jump considering how good he is on the offensive end.

What?

How does a player whose above average at the least valuable part of perimiter defense and "horrible" at the most important part of perimiter d grade out as "average" to you?

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:59 am**

Horrible.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:17 am**

freethedevil wrote:
ken6199 wrote:
ellobo wrote:Steph Curry and James Harden (NOT meant sarcastically).

In another thread, I posted the Synergy Sports playtype defensive stats from NBA.com for Harden this past season:
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 81.6th percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

I just looked up Curry's numbers, and they are more pedestrian, but still above average across the board:
Post up: 53.4th percentile (6% of possessions)
Isolation: 59th percentile (9.6% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 52nd percentile (32% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 75.5th percentile (2.4% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 72nd percentile (29.3% of possessions)
Off screen: 51st percentile (5.4% of possessions)
Off handoff: 57th pecentile (11.3% of possessions)

Both guys are routinely lambasted for not playing defense, hence they are underrated.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1861095#p76817397

The difference is that the second player has consistently graded out as a positive defensively and the first player has consistently made his team's defense worse. Probably has something to do with the fact that one is hid in the post, while the other is actually used in a variety of settings.

Curry is always trying you have to give him credit for that. Curry gets over zealot on his defense therefore he often got himself into foul trouble. Have you ever seen Harden got into foul trouble? lol. I haven't. Same for Westbrook who is always hounding his man. People tend to give extra credit for effort (rightfully so). Harden on the opposite, has a lukewarm defensive style often seen chilling on the weak side and giving up fastbreak chase downs, which is large part to his Shaq'tin fool MVP.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:26 am**

Kobblehead wrote:His reputation as a bad defender was always poorly applied to him. Harden is an excellent defender. He just takes possessions off.

I agree with some of your assessment except I wouldn’t call him an excellent defender. He’s better than his rep but not that good.

He has some underrated strengths but some glaring weaknesses too. He struggles at times staying in front of quicker guards and you’re rarely going to use his as a stopper against a top wing opponent, but he is really underrated against bigger players and defending the post. His team defense skills, when engaged, are underrated because he has long arms, plays passing lanes well and has great instincts but the taking plays off issue shouldn’t be ignored either although the YouTube videos do make it look worse than it is.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:27 am**

ken6199 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
ken6199 wrote:viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1861095#p76817397

The difference is that the second player has consistently graded out as a positive defensively and the first player has consistently made his team's defense worse. Probably has something to do with the fact that one is hid in the post, while the other is actually used in a variety of settings.

Curry is always trying you have to give him credit for that./quote]
Effort is one thing, but what separates them here is speed. Curry can be used on smalls(check his defense on lou williams in the first round), can rotate off of bad matchups and can deter bigs towards help. So while his lack of size prevents him from protecting the rim or being a significant needle pusher defensively, he can avoid being aliability and has the oppurtunity to provide extravalue. Harden has size, but he doesn't have the leap to protect the rim and he doesn't have the quickness to shift onto bigs, so his size ends up being a deterrence rather than a strength except for post defense.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:56 am**

ThumbsUpBaby wrote:It's weird how much he declined on defense after he had a reputation as a solid defender when he was with OKC.

He did?

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:17 am**

He’s no where near Giannis on defense.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:09 pm**

Did anyone watch game 5 or 6 of the conference semifinals? Harden is still a huge liability on defense and completely unreliable. He almost single handedly lost both of those games for Houston with major defensive gaffes. His effort and awareness in game 6 were especially horrid and as bad as it's ever been advertised for the entire time he was on the court. A team like the Warriors is acutely aware of his tendencies and seeks to exploit them, it's blatantly obvious when you go back and watch that game. A key part of their game plan was to rely on Harden to make little league mistakes. Go count how many times he completely loses Klay, Steph, Iggy and others for WIDE open looks and his utter lack of interest in fighting for crucial rebounds. If you can't be counted on to make simple plays when it matters, none of the analytics are relevant.

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:03 pm**

Jordan was one of the league's premier defenders, at age 33-35, despite being nowhere near his peak physically.
Kawhi and Harden are just not manly enough

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:22 pm**

Why do people keep quoting post up defense like that actually matters?How many guards actually post up and how often?You just do it to make him look good.Same thing with that crap stat "deflections".

Had a good laugh with the first reply too.Harden's an excellent defender that chooses to take possessions off.Yeah and i am actually better at basketball than Harden,i just choose not to show it. :roll:

Posted: **Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:51 pm**

As the synergy stats show, he can be a very good or at least neutral individual defender, but shows no real defensive awareness or care from a team defense standpoint and that’s why his team’s defense is usually worse with him on court although in 2017 and 2018, the Rockets were much better defensively with him on court in the playoffs.

Take a look at how he did guarding KD, Curry, and Klay in last year’s playoffs.https://stats.nba.com/player/201935/matchups/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&Matchup=Defense

KD—Harden defended him on 88 total possessions, KD shot 8/24, 24 total points, 45% TS (nba.com gives the number of FTs made but not attempted—dig around and figure it out, but this is assuming he made all 6 FTs)

Curry—Harden defended him on 54 total possessions, Curry shot 4/19, 13 total points, 31.3% TS

His is amazing individual defense on two of the most difficult players to defend in NBA history. Curry shot 9% from three with Harden defending him.

Meanwhile, he didn’t do as against Klay, but still Klay scored only 19 of his total 115 points in the series directly against Harden.

Klay—Harden defended him on 52 total possessions, Klay shot 8/11, 19 total points, 86.4% TS.

BUT, the problem was when he missed assignments, switched late, rotated later, ball watched, etc., and even with this great individual defense, the Rockets were worse defensively with him on court than off vs, the Warriors and in the playoffs as a whole.

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