RealGM

I was thinking about who the best skilled big man of all time was, so I thought I would bring it to RealGM to discuss.
You've got guys like Dirk, Wilt, and KG that could be added to the list, but I didn't think they made the cut because Wilt couldn't shoot fts at all, and Dirk and KG didn't have the same low post skill set of the selected bigs.

It left me with KAJ, Olajuwon, and Duncan competing for the best skilled big man of all time.

I'd probably give it to Duncan. He had more in his bag than anyone.

Are we agreeing that Duncan is a center in this context? Because if not and seven foot power forwards count, Dirk would certainly be up there even though he didn't do his work in the low post. He was impressively skilled, especially when young.

Between the three you listed, I chose Hakeem, but really could have happily chose any. I didn't watch Kareem, but I just finished 70sfan's excellent edit so am even higher on him at the moment. Duncan is obviously amazing in a million ways, large and small. I gave it to Hakeem though, which might be just because of his apparent fluidity, though I wouldn't sat he was more effective than the other two.

Definitely Olajuwon, he is the example for footwork in the post. He had a nice handle aswell, and great mid range shot.

Among these choices it's probably Kareem. His hook shot is pretty crazy and the range is great, he had a lot of other moves also. Hakeem's moves look prettier, but that has more to do with athleticism than pure skill.

MarcusBrody wrote:Are we agreeing that Duncan is a center in this context? Because if not and seven foot power forwards count, Dirk would certainly be up there even though he didn't do his work in the low post. He was impressively skilled, especially when young.

Between the three you listed, I chose Hakeem, but really could have happily chose any. I didn't watch Kareem, but I just finished 70sfan's excellent edit so am even higher on him at the moment. Duncan is obviously amazing in a million ways, large and small. I gave it to Hakeem though, which might be just because of his apparent fluidity, though I wouldn't sat he was more effective than the other two.

Dirk is obviously great and high up there on the list, but I don't think his toolbox is diverse as the other guys. He is elite in certain things like his fade away which makes him unstoppable.

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

First Step wrote:

MarcusBrody wrote:Are we agreeing that Duncan is a center in this context? Because if not and seven foot power forwards count, Dirk would certainly be up there even though he didn't do his work in the low post. He was impressively skilled, especially when young.

Between the three you listed, I chose Hakeem, but really could have happily chose any. I didn't watch Kareem, but I just finished 70sfan's excellent edit so am even higher on him at the moment. Duncan is obviously amazing in a million ways, large and small. I gave it to Hakeem though, which might be just because of his apparent fluidity, though I wouldn't sat he was more effective than the other two.

Dirk is obviously great and high up there on the list, but I don't think his toolbox is diverse as the other guys. He is elite in certain things like his fade away which makes him unstoppable.

I think that his perimeter toolbox (esp. when younger) was much more developed than any of the guys in the poll. Olajuwon got a lot of attention for his ability to face up and take his defender off the dribble, but this was generally against slower centers who would back off him a good bit. Younger Dirk was a genuine outside ball handler as well as having an outside shot none of those guys could match. That's impressively skilled for a big man, if not a "big man" skill.

First Step wrote:I was thinking about who the best skilled big man of all time was, so I thought I would bring it to RealGM to discuss.
You've got guys like Dirk, Wilt, and KG that could be added to the list, but I didn't think they made the cut because Wilt couldn't shoot fts at all, and Dirk and KG didn't have the same low post skill set of the selected bigs.

It left me with KAJ, Olajuwon, and Duncan competing for the best skilled big man of all time.

I'd probably give it to Duncan. He had more in his bag than anyone.

Offensively, Duncan would rank 3rd on this list for me. Hakeem had by far the best post game and KAT has the ability to play the game down low, 25 feet out and off the bounce. His biggest problems are his effort is very inconsistent and his defense isn’t even close to the other 2.

Well considering that Abdul-Jabbar had a move that nobody in the entirety of his career could stop, and no one has replicated since, or even tried to replicate, it's KAJ by a mile. But everyone here is going to point to Olajuwon's footwork as being "more skilled".

Probably Tim Duncan,there's a reason why he's called as "The Big Fundamental".

Hakeem has a case to be most skilled big man ever.

Also considering that KAJ is the greatest scorer in league history, it's KAJ by another mile. That's two miles that KAJ has a lead over the next closest guy, FYI.

MarcusBrody wrote:

First Step wrote:

MarcusBrody wrote:Are we agreeing that Duncan is a center in this context? Because if not and seven foot power forwards count, Dirk would certainly be up there even though he didn't do his work in the low post. He was impressively skilled, especially when young.

Between the three you listed, I chose Hakeem, but really could have happily chose any. I didn't watch Kareem, but I just finished 70sfan's excellent edit so am even higher on him at the moment. Duncan is obviously amazing in a million ways, large and small. I gave it to Hakeem though, which might be just because of his apparent fluidity, though I wouldn't sat he was more effective than the other two.

Dirk is obviously great and high up there on the list, but I don't think his toolbox is diverse as the other guys. He is elite in certain things like his fade away which makes him unstoppable.

I think that his perimeter toolbox (esp. when younger) was much more developed than any of the guys in the poll. Olajuwon got a lot of attention for his ability to face up and take his defender off the dribble, but this was generally against slower centers who would back off him a good bit. Younger Dirk was a genuine outside ball handler as well as having an outside shot none of those guys could match. That's impressively skilled for a big man, if not a "big man" skill.

I'm with you. When you are talking about best ever, the margins between players are thin. When making decisions you have to look at things like how many ways can a player beat you.

No disrespect to Dirk, but there is a reason he only won 1 title, and Duncan won 5. It's not like Dirk didn't have help, but he is easier to game plan for then the other players because if his shot is off, he doesn't have as many ways to beat you. Guys like Duncan and Olajuwon have counters upon counters and a million different combinations of ways to beat you.

Yeah, if midrange and 3 are considered skills in this context, then Dirk should be up there, if no - Olajuwon.

Drygon wrote:Probably Tim Duncan,there's a reason why he's called as "The Big Fundamental".

Hakeem has a case to be most skilled big man ever.

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Drygon wrote:Probably Tim Duncan,there's a reason why he's called as "The Big Fundamental".

Hakeem has a case to be most skilled big man ever.

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

Tim Duncan's game was 100% skill based while Hakeem relied heavily on athleticism.

Even when Duncan was in decline, he was still an elite big man thanks to his fundamentals.

I cannot say the same for Hakeem.

First Step wrote:

MarcusBrody wrote:

First Step wrote:Dirk is obviously great and high up there on the list, but I don't think his toolbox is diverse as the other guys. He is elite in certain things like his fade away which makes him unstoppable.

I think that his perimeter toolbox (esp. when younger) was much more developed than any of the guys in the poll. Olajuwon got a lot of attention for his ability to face up and take his defender off the dribble, but this was generally against slower centers who would back off him a good bit. Younger Dirk was a genuine outside ball handler as well as having an outside shot none of those guys could match. That's impressively skilled for a big man, if not a "big man" skill.

I'm with you. When you are talking about best ever, the margins between players are thin. When making decisions you have to look at things like how many ways can a player beat you.

No disrespect to Dirk, but there is a reason he only won 1 title, and Duncan won 5. It's not like Dirk didn't have help, but he is easier to game plan for then the other players because if his shot is off, he doesn't have as many ways to beat you. Guys like Duncan and Olajuwon have counters upon counters and a million different combinations of ways to beat you.

I'm not saying that Dirk is the best player of the four, just that he has an argument for the most "skilled," though obviously that depends on how you define skills. None of the other guys could dribble and shoot like Dirk, but he had less post skills than any of them.

Also, Hakeem only had two rings and is running away with the poll. Dirk played in as many finals, lost one of the more controversial/conspiratorial finals of the past few decades in 2006 and won a title over the Heat Superteam that I'd certainly rank higher on the accomplishment chart than either of Hakeem's wins during Jordan's sabbatical. Again, I'm not saying that Dirk is necessarily better than Hakeem - I chose Hakeem in the poll. I just wouldn't argue that it's because of rings.

The_Hater wrote:

First Step wrote:I was thinking about who the best skilled big man of all time was, so I thought I would bring it to RealGM to discuss.
You've got guys like Dirk, Wilt, and KG that could be added to the list, but I didn't think they made the cut because Wilt couldn't shoot fts at all, and Dirk and KG didn't have the same low post skill set of the selected bigs.

It left me with KAJ, Olajuwon, and Duncan competing for the best skilled big man of all time.

I'd probably give it to Duncan. He had more in his bag than anyone.

Offensively, Duncan would rank 3rd on this list for me. Hakeem had by far the best post game and KAT has the ability to play the game down low, 25 feet out and off the bounce. His biggest problems are his effort is very inconsistent and his defense isn’t even close to the other 2.

Hes taking about KAJ not KAT.

Drygon wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Drygon wrote:Probably Tim Duncan,there's a reason why he's called as "The Big Fundamental".

Hakeem has a case to be most skilled big man ever.

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

Tim Duncan's game was 100% skill based while Hakeem relied heavily on athleticism.

Even when Duncan was in decline, he was still an elite big man thanks to his fundamentals.

I cannot say the same for Hakeem.

This is a really interesting point. Though Duncan was also in a system that did really well maximizing what he still did really well.

Drygon wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Drygon wrote:Probably Tim Duncan,there's a reason why he's called as "The Big Fundamental".

Hakeem has a case to be most skilled big man ever.

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

Tim Duncan's game was 100% skill based while Hakeem relied heavily on athleticism.

Even when Duncan was in decline, he was still an elite big man thanks to his fundamentals.

I cannot say the same for Hakeem.

Tim Duncan also heavily relied on size...you do realize that Kareem, Hakeem and Duncan all had big physical advantages over their opponents on top of their skills and IQ. There is nothing that indicates Tim Duncan is a more skilled offensive player than Zach Randolph, but he is certainly more athletic and WAY bigger. (Zach is more skilled than all three guys, but no one humor it because he's not a superstar

Hakeem is one of the most athletic centers of all time, so yes, Duncan cannot compare to him there - but making it seem like Duncan was not a physical problem is insulting to players who actually were undersized or had bad athleticism. Tim Duncan had elite size and moved very well for his size. He wasn't one of the highest rated prospects of all time because he had a bank shot dude.

MarcusBrody wrote:

First Step wrote:

MarcusBrody wrote:I think that his perimeter toolbox (esp. when younger) was much more developed than any of the guys in the poll. Olajuwon got a lot of attention for his ability to face up and take his defender off the dribble, but this was generally against slower centers who would back off him a good bit. Younger Dirk was a genuine outside ball handler as well as having an outside shot none of those guys could match. That's impressively skilled for a big man, if not a "big man" skill.

I'm with you. When you are talking about best ever, the margins between players are thin. When making decisions you have to look at things like how many ways can a player beat you.

No disrespect to Dirk, but there is a reason he only won 1 title, and Duncan won 5. It's not like Dirk didn't have help, but he is easier to game plan for then the other players because if his shot is off, he doesn't have as many ways to beat you. Guys like Duncan and Olajuwon have counters upon counters and a million different combinations of ways to beat you.

I'm not saying that Dirk is the best player of the four, just that he has an argument for the most "skilled," though obviously that depends on how you define skills. None of the other guys could dribble and shoot like Dirk, but he had less post skills than any of them.

Also, Hakeem only had two rings and is running away with the poll. Dirk played in as many finals, lost one of the more controversial/conspiratorial finals of the past few decades in 2006 and won a title over the Heat Superteam that I'd certainly rank higher on the accomplishment chart than either of Hakeem's wins during Jordan's sabbatical. Again, I'm not saying that Dirk is necessarily better than Hakeem - I chose Hakeem in the poll. I just wouldn't argue that it's because of rings.

The main premise of my argument was not Duncan has more rings, therefore he is more skilled. It was just a piece of supporting evidence. I agree, Dirk is unreal. He's one of my favourite players. But I've seen him choke more than he's delivered too. His run against the Heat superteam was remarkable. But that's the level of ball he needed to play in order to win. He couldn't do that all the time. There are examples of him losing as a 65 win 1st seed in the first round too. I'll put Olajuwon's resume up against Dirks any day.