If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 30?

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If Tom Brady get's a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan?

Yes ranked above Jordan
125
41%
No still below Jordan
178
59%
 
Total votes: 303

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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#181 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:16 am

Sark wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Sark wrote:

Reward is for efficiency.

Effiency doesn't help teams win, volume does



We're not comparing teams, we're comparing players.

Yes, and players are signed to help teams win more. Not to be "effecient" with winning. :lol:
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#182 » by NZB2323 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:17 am

Michael Jordan won Defensive Player of the Year and Tom Brady doesn't even play defense. Jordan has 6 Finals MVPS and Brady has 4 Superbowl MVPs.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#183 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:17 am

Drygon wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
TheNG wrote:I saw what you did there :nonono:

Lebron has a peak that can easily be argued against mj’s And significantly greater longetivity. People are getting defensive now, but in 4 years lebron will be viewed in the same light as Messi while Jordan is viewed like a pele or a maradona. Being a combination of Jordan and Kareem is gonna make “rings erneh” less and less important as time goes on.


If stats matters, then Wilt Chamberlain is the undisputed GOAT.

:lol:
Wilt's "stats" aren't on par with russell outside of maybe a few seasons. Unless by "stats" you mean the ones that don't measure how much you lift your team.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#184 » by Effigy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 am

Danny1616 wrote:
Effigy wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
You realize that Brady actually has a better record against other divisions outside of the AFC east, right?



This is pure domination, it's not a product of playing in a "weak" division.


Not according to the stat you just provided. According to that, he's 78.2 against the AFC East and 75.3 against everyone else....


Lol, the difference is minimal but here is a more detailed analysis.

This updated from May, 2018. Against the AFC the Patriots have a 74.2% winning percentage and against the NFC the Patriots have a 74.1% winning percentage.

In order against each division this is the Patriots winning percentage:

AFC North: 75%

AFC South: 80%

AFC East: 74%

AFC West: 67%.

NFC North: 74%

NFC South: 77%

NFC East: 70%

NFC West: 75%

So Brady has a higher winning percentage against the AFC North, AFC South, NFC South and NFC West than the AFC East.

So the argument that Brady takes advantage of a weak division is BS.

In fact Brady's worst record against any team in the NFL with at least 10 games are the Dolphins, surprisingly.

https://patriotsdynasty.info/blog/2018/05-11/debunking-myth-easy-afc-east


That proves my point, actually. It’s unarguable that the rest of the AFC east has been dog crap for 19 years and the worst division in football. But even with that, with rivalries being what they are, they win more games than they should against the Patriots. Now imagine he played in the AFC West or North all that time and had heated rivalries with Denver, KC, Baltimore, Pitt and/or he Chargers. Adding rivalry motivations to better teams would result in more losses.

Don’t get it twisted though, Brady is the goat, whatever division he’s in, it’s just infuriating that he hasn’t had any actual nfl teams In His division for basically his whole career. It’s sort of like them getting Antonio Brown. He’s so good, he doesn’t even NEED that advantage.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#185 » by tosi » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:18 am

Well Jordan didnt cheat.
fart wrote:I agree. get over it people. MJ is ridicoulsly overrated that people have developed this perception that no one can challenge him for GOAT.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#186 » by IgorK » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:30 am

Edrees wrote:
IgorK wrote:
levon wrote:as someone who doesn't watch football, why do you say that? my understanding is that individual NBA players influence the outcome in basketball more than individuals in football?


Brady's 6 is already greater than Jordan's 6. It's more difficult to win in football for many reasons - 1-and-done playoff format, less control (Brady only plays offense, so he has no say on the defensive end, unlike basketball players), and the fact that you have 50+ teammates you need to rely on (whereas in basketball you're playing with a 12-man roster which shrinks to about 8 during playoffs).


I mean, from an individual perspective, that actually make Brady sounds less impressive. It highlights that he needed the organization to be as great as it was to support him and allow for the accomplishment to happen. Whereas Jordan's feels more like it was all him. Brady was on the sideline effectively as a cheerleader in some of those most key moments of the Patiots 6 rings, where Jordan always played some kind of active role in every key moment.

I think from a *team* perspective the Patriots winning 6 is far more impressive than the Bulls winning 6, but from any 1 player perspective, Jordan's performance in those 6 rings is more Impressive than Brady's performance in his 6.

I think that by saying team success being harder to achieve in the NFL is in itself is admission that one player can't really have that much impact on the game which suggests Brady didn't have as much impact as Jordan. It's simply the nature of their sports.

This is further supported by the fact that Brady wasn't even the MVP of the Superbowl in 2 of his Finals. And Brady was only the league MVP 3 times vs Jordan's 6s. BOTH of thse strongly support that Brady had to rely on his team more than Jordan did. Tom brady stats in his most recent superbowl win: 21-35, 262 YDS, 1 INT For a QB those are worse than Lebron game 6 vs mavs in 2011 level stats, except his defense bailed him out for the win.

If people are going to hold it against Kobe in the Kobe vs Lebron debate that Kobe wasn't the best player in the finals in 3 of his finals, why doesn't Brady get the same treatment when he wasn't the MVP of 2 of his finals? Same goes for Steph Curry. When you compare Lebron and steph curry, they both have 3 rings, but then you realize Lebron was Finals MVP 3 times. You have to think the same way when comparing Brady in superbowls and Jordan in Finals.

Drygon wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:The issue I have with that is Brady has had a couple of Superbowls "he" won where he was actually pretty mediocre to dare I say bad (gasp) but the Pats' TEAM DEFENSE was really what won them the game but hey he's the GOAT so he gets the narrative of all the credit...

For that reason, Jordan is still ahead for me.


Michael Jordan was pretty bad against SuperSonics in NBA Finals 1996 and got bailed out by Dennis Rodman in that series.

Nobody cares or even remembers. Same will happened with Brady even if he was poor in some of those SuperBowls wins.



Jordan still had 27.3, 5.3, 4.2, 1.7, 0.2. He was fairly inefficient but everything else measures up, including his D. Those are still great stats for an NBA player and not nearly as bad as the stats brady has put up in some superbowls.



Actually.. anyone who knows at least a little bit about football knows that without a great quarterback, you don't win Superbowls.
"You want me to own a team and deal with these rich, spoiled stubborn athletes, and try to get them to perform? No thank you." - Kobe Bryant

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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#187 » by Pg81 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:03 am

freethedevil wrote:
Drygon wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Lebron has a peak that can easily be argued against mj’s And significantly greater longetivity. People are getting defensive now, but in 4 years lebron will be viewed in the same light as Messi while Jordan is viewed like a pele or a maradona. Being a combination of Jordan and Kareem is gonna make “rings erneh” less and less important as time goes on.


If stats matters, then Wilt Chamberlain is the undisputed GOAT.

:lol:
Wilt's "stats" aren't on par with russell outside of maybe a few seasons. Unless by "stats" you mean the ones that don't measure how much you lift your team.


:crazy:
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#190 » by LKN » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:51 am

Duke4life831 wrote:6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.


For an individual player? No way - individual NBA players have FAR, FAR more impact than any individual football player - even QBs.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#191 » by LKN » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:00 pm

Brady is the GOAT QB (although it's really hard to compare modern QBs to guys from say the 90s and before due to all the rule changes)... best best NFL player ever? Um, that's not at all a cut and dry argument. Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, etc. etc. etc.

Football just isn't a sport where anyone guy can be crowned the "GOAT". At best we can look at positional rankings.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#192 » by LKN » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:13 pm

Jabroni Lames wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Jabroni Lames wrote:
lol. Yeah, I know. Lebron didn't even make it into the on-deck circle last year. Unlike Gobert & Simmons. But if you read closely, I'm actually giving Lebron more credit than Jordan for having to go up against tougher competition.

I read it. It's an absolute joke of a statement made much more laughable by including names like Doncic, Gobert and Simmons while ommiting Curry and the Warriors.


Again, you just illustrate the point that the NBA talent pool is massive in compared to the NFL and keeps getting bigger, while the NFL is still confined to the US. The real joke of a statement was that you tried to prove your point by mentioning Shaq and Barkley - 2 guys who wouldn't be superstars in this era. Maybe Duncan too. Still, I'm mostly agreeing with you.


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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#193 » by LKN » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:23 pm

SkyHookFTW wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Lol how is this a question. Jordan doesn't have a clearly better case than kaj, russell, or lbj. Brady literally has the best longetivty, the most winning, and the highest peak.

Brady>>>>>>>jordan and honestly might have a case vs gretsky when we consider orr.

Like seriously, make a case against brady for goat, try to. He's the best/arguably the best at everything.

Jerry Rice is still the GOAT NFL player. Relative to position, he is untouchable. I could make a case for Joe Montana over Brady if I really wanted to argue the point right now. Would love to see Marino and Elway with today's rules.

Having said that, Brady>>>>Jordan, simply because in the NFL you are not allowed to have a bad game...one and done is a lot of pressure that Jordan never had to face.


Marino is the one that I always come back to....they had to change A LOT of rules until anyone approached/surpassed his peak passing numbers. His 1984 season in particular was completely insane at that time and would still be impressive now
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#195 » by Mirotic12 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:50 pm

To this hater argument of [paraphrasing]: "Tom Brady played since the rules changes, so he isn't as good as quarterbacks from previous eras. Put Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Joe Montana, etc. in today's league, with today's rules, and they all have 7,000 yards passing and 70 touchdown passes a season"...................

Yeah, well Brady won 3 Super Bowls and 2 Super Bowl MVPs under the old rules. He also had seasons in which he led the NFL in yards passing (2005), and touchdown passes (2002), under the old rules. So he was a first ballot hall of fame guy and one of the 2-3 greatest quarterbacks ever, just counting what he did under the old rules.

That is a hater talking point, and it is completely irrelevant, since Brady won half of his Super Bowls and Super Bowl MVPs under the old rules.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#196 » by Danny1616 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:20 pm

Effigy wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Effigy wrote:
Not according to the stat you just provided. According to that, he's 78.2 against the AFC East and 75.3 against everyone else....


Lol, the difference is minimal but here is a more detailed analysis.

This updated from May, 2018. Against the AFC the Patriots have a 74.2% winning percentage and against the NFC the Patriots have a 74.1% winning percentage.

In order against each division this is the Patriots winning percentage:

AFC North: 75%

AFC South: 80%

AFC East: 74%

AFC West: 67%.

NFC North: 74%

NFC South: 77%

NFC East: 70%

NFC West: 75%

So Brady has a higher winning percentage against the AFC North, AFC South, NFC South and NFC West than the AFC East.

So the argument that Brady takes advantage of a weak division is BS.

In fact Brady's worst record against any team in the NFL with at least 10 games are the Dolphins, surprisingly.

https://patriotsdynasty.info/blog/2018/05-11/debunking-myth-easy-afc-east


That proves my point, actually. It’s unarguable that the rest of the AFC east has been dog crap for 19 years and the worst division in football. But even with that, with rivalries being what they are, they win more games than they should against the Patriots. Now imagine he played in the AFC West or North all that time and had heated rivalries with Denver, KC, Baltimore, Pitt and/or he Chargers. Adding rivalry motivations to better teams would result in more losses.

Don’t get it twisted though, Brady is the goat, whatever division he’s in, it’s just infuriating that he hasn’t had any actual nfl teams In His division for basically his whole career. It’s sort of like them getting Antonio Brown. He’s so good, he doesn’t even NEED that advantage.


Or maybe the Patriots are that good which skews the division.

The Jets had a few very good years and made the AFC two years in a row in 2009 and 2010.

You still didn't acknowledge the fact that the Patriots have the best winning percentage against playoff teams and above .500 teams. This isn't simply them taking advantage of a 'weak' division which I think is overblown.

If they didn't have a great record against top teams or above .500 teams but simply fed on the division you would have a much stronger argument.

Also, I find it ironic that you think the Patriots are getting all this help offensively.

Brady led the Patriots to the AFC championship in 2006 with Jabbar Gaffney and David Givens as his top receivers.

Moss only played two years with Brady and was past his prime. Gronkowski has missed nearly half his games with the Patriots and Edelman has had numerous injury issues as well. There has been a revolving door of receivers in New England. Brady led the Patriots to the AFC championship in 2015 without Edelman, won the Super Bowl in 2017 without Gronk and threw for a record 505 yards in the 2018 Super Bowl without Edelman.

It doesn't matter who you give him.

Like last Sunday...no Gronk and Brady throws for 340 yard and 3 TD's in a masterful QB performance.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#197 » by lobosloboslobos » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:02 pm

The problem with these comparisons is people forget to focus on the criteria for the comparison. OP asked if Brady winning a 7th Super Bowl would make him the most successful/winningest team sports player in the last 30 years.

As far as winningest goes the OBJECTIVE answer is YES because 7 titles > 6 titles.

As far as most successful goes, this is a bit murkier, but if we define success as championships - which is the ultimate definition of sports success - then yes Brady would be more successful because 7>6.

There are other ways to define success, and in quite a few of them Brady seems likely to come out on top, such as:

- longevity of success
- achievement vs the rest of the league (NBA has many dynasties, of which Bulls is the greatest in the modern era, but NFL has had NO other dynasties during the period in which the Pats have made it to 9 super bowls.)
- i'd also also argue that Brady has had less stellar teammates with far more player turnover, which makes his success more impressive than Jordan's

though in some other ways Jordan would be called more successful, notably:

- his 6/6 record in finals
- his 3peat followed by 2 years away followed by returning for another 3peat
- him playing both sides of the ball

So I think there is no clear winner in terms of 'success', except maybe by relying on titles if you want to choose that. everything else is subjective.

And as far as the 'Brady cheats' stuff, i can't help but imagine the sad twisted pretzel brains of the posters who insist on repeating this idiocy.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#198 » by 50CalClips » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:59 am

Well...
The Brady/Jordan debate would be for -2nd place... a player from the United States.

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Well... make that Male U.S. player...

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Geezus, so many caveats... make that Male... Team Sport... U.S. player...

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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#199 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:01 am

50CalClips wrote:Well...

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Brady/Jordan, for 2nd place....


There are 4 chances each year for Federer to win a title. Just one chance each year for Brady and Jordan. Divide 20 by 4 and you get 5.

6 > 5

24 titles for Federer would actually be equal to 6 for Brady and Jordan.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#200 » by 50CalClips » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:17 am

We're only talking about "players" right?
You don't "play" Boxing...

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You don't "play" MMA...

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