If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 30?

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If Tom Brady get's a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan?

Yes ranked above Jordan
129
41%
No still below Jordan
184
59%
 
Total votes: 313

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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#261 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:12 pm

kaulkhara15 wrote:The reason Brady will never, ever surpass MJ is because people can only bring up team accomplishments as his argument.

Or his argument for greatest peak.

Or his argument for greatest longetivty.

Or the fact that he is simultaneously the russell, jordan, kareem and lebron of football?
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#262 » by Cal And Jay » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:29 pm

Didn't vote on the poll because Brady is already farrrr above MJ. Football is crazy hard to win rings. Single elimination playoffs. Plus Brady didn't have a top 10 player alongside him for all the success. Brady's been winning rings for the past twenty years regardless of teammates. Watching him vs other QBs, it's not close. Mj is arguably not even the greatest basketball player all time, nevermind overall athlete. Brady is the unquestionable GOAT
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#263 » by Sark » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:06 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Sark wrote:Jordan detractors when comparing Jordan to Lebron: team success doesn't matter.


Jordan detractors when comparing Jordan to Brady: team success matters.

Read the thread title.

It's not "greatest", it's "most successful/winning". Didn't you quote me to tell me that earlier?



Yea, the goal posts are always moving when it comes to Jordan haters.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#264 » by gorz » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:37 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:Another important factor, in my opinion it is easier to win an NFL MVP than it is to win an NBA MVP, and MJ has Brady doubled up there. In the NFL it's pretty much almost always a QB who wins, so in his best days Brady really only had to compete with a handful of players for this award, and the truth is that he wasn't really considered to be the best in the league, never mind ever. That came with the 5th ring, probably, and the truth is that he won some Super Bowls recently where he wasn't even close to being the best player on his team. I think Brady is massively overrated, and I don't think MJ is. A little bit, probably, but not nearly as much as Brady. Also, Gretzky > both.


Brady is a 3 time MVP. Jordan has 5.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#265 » by BallSacBounce » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:50 am

Duke4life831 wrote:6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.

I get your point but it's way more of a team sport. One guy doesn't have the same impact as in the NBA.

I give the credit to the coach and the organization, then to Brady for keeping them at such a high level for so long.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#266 » by JimmerAllStar » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:10 am

Look, Tom Brady has had the easiest road to rings for any athlete in any sport.

First, the Patriots play in the AFC East. That's the Bills, the Jets, and the Dolphins. That means a guaranteed spot in the playoffs every year. That is like 3/4ths the battle. The Dolphins are rebuilding for the next 3 years, the Jets lost Darnold, and the Bills have had 2 winning seasons in the last 14 years.

Then once you're in the playoffs, its a 50/50 chance to get to the Superbowl. But with all the little cheats that the Patriots do, it gives them an edge for maybe 60/40.

Second, Tom has had Belichick who is a defensive guru. I mean Brady won a ring in his 2nd year as a backup QB. The defense is responsible for all of Brady's wins. I remember when Brady was suspended, and the Pats still had a winning record without him.

Third, Kraft runs the NFL. He changed the rules to protect Brady. Brady is immobile as f8ck. So what did the NFL do? Changed the rules so Brady could play into his 50s. If the rules weren't changed, then Brady would be in a wheelchair right now after having played 4 seasons in the NFL.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#267 » by pmart123 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:22 pm

levon wrote:
Dominater wrote:
IgorK wrote:
Brady's 6 is already greater than Jordan's 6. It's more difficult to win in football for many reasons - 1-and-done playoff format, less control (Brady only plays offense, so he has no say on the defensive end, unlike basketball players), and the fact that you have 50+ teammates you need to rely on (whereas in basketball you're playing with a 12-man roster which shrinks to about 8 during playoffs).

I agree with the 1st part, every game being game 7 makes it much more random and theres zero margin for a bad day in the NFL playoffs, whereas in the NBA you see the better team lose game 1 alot and just shake it off and adjust for game 2 and so on.

But the 2nd part could be a counter agrument.... That he only impacts one side of the ball, and needs to rely on others moreso than in basketball

Yeah that makes no sense to me. He needs like 30 other people to get things right yet he's somehow credited individually with someone that won titles in a team that went maybe 8 deep in playoff runs?

Just because superbowls are somehow more "difficult" to attain doesn't make Brady the better individual player in his respective sport. I mean he may be, I just don't know if that's an argument. Also wasn't he kind of meh in his last superbowl?


Well, it is because Brady and Belichick have been the two constants throughout the process similar to Jordan, Pippen and Jackson. Antonio Brown, Moss, etc. are the Grant's, Rodman's, etc.

It's a tough argument either way though as Brady isn't a classic athlete and his stats don't rival Manning's. Meanwhile, winning six Superbowls is tougher due to the schedule, injuries, and playoff format. I would say that after watching Tom Brady's offseason video a year or two ago, I doubt there are few athletes outside of Jordan or Brady who approach their sport with such a drive and obsession.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#268 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:17 pm

The argument that Bill Belichick should be credited with all of the Patriots' success, and that Tom Brady is just a system player and nothing more, and any other decent quarterback would have won the same amount or more Super Bowls with the Patriots, is ridiculous.

Bill Belichick's NFL head coaching career without Tom Brady as his starting quarterback is very mediocre.

In 6 seasons as an NFL head coach without Tom Brady as his starting quarterback, Bill Belichick only had 1 winning season, and only made the playoffs once. He only had one total playoff win. He had an overall losing record.

As the Patriots head coach, Belichick was 5-13 before Brady became the team's starter. Several Patriots former assistant coaches from that time, have said that they knew Belichick was close to being fired by the Patriots, before Brady fell like manna from heaven, and suddenly got in the starting lineup, after Drew Bledsoe got injured. It's amazing how much people will change the actual history, to make it seem like Belichick made Brady, when all objective evidence shows it was the other way around. Belichick is incredibly lucky he got Brady, not the other way around.


Bill Belichick's career as a head coach without Tom Brady as his starting QB:

Cleveland Browns:

36 wins - 44 losses (.450) in the regular season
1 win - 1 loss (.500) in the playoffs
37 wins - 45 losses (.451) total

New England Patriots:

18 wins - 19 losses (.486) in the regular season
0 wins - 0 losses (.000) in the playoffs
18 wins - 19 losses (.486) total

Bill Belichick's overall NFL head coaching record without Tom Brady as his starting QB:

54 wins - 63 losses (.462) in the regular season
1 win - 1 loss (.500) in the playoffs
55 wins - 64 losses (.462) total


Bill Belichick's career as a head coach with Tom Brady as his starting QB:

208 wins - 60 losses (.776) in the regular season
30 wins - 10 losses (.750) in the playoffs
238 wins - 70 losses (.773) total


So, without Tom Brady as his starting quarterback, Bill Belichick in 6 seasons, had 5 losing seasons, made the playoffs once, and was 1-1 in the playoffs. His record as a head coach without Brady starting at QB is 55-64 (.462). With Tom Brady as his starting QB, Belichick has won 30 playoff games, 9 conference championships, 6 Super Bowls, and has a record of 238-70 (.773).

Objectively speaking, it is very clear and evident that Tom Brady made Bill Belichick, and not the other way around.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#269 » by Myth » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:51 pm

IgorK wrote:
levon wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.

as someone who doesn't watch football, why do you say that? my understanding is that individual NBA players influence the outcome in basketball more than individuals in football?


Brady's 6 is already greater than Jordan's 6. It's more difficult to win in football for many reasons - 1-and-done playoff format, less control (Brady only plays offense, so he has no say on the defensive end, unlike basketball players), and the fact that you have 50+ teammates you need to rely on (whereas in basketball you're playing with a 12-man roster which shrinks to about 8 during playoffs).

That is kind of an argument for Jordan. It indicates that Brady's success is more dependent on his team.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#270 » by chrisab123 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:18 pm

kaulkhara15 wrote:The reason Brady will never, ever surpass MJ is because people can only bring up team accomplishments as his argument. And he plays in the ultimate team sport.


I mean not for nothing but he's very close to breaking the record for all time TDs thrown and might end up catching Brees for passing yards. But yes pure team accomplishments.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#271 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:38 pm

This argument that Tom Brady has no stats, and that Peyton Manning has better stats is completely incorrect.

Tom Brady has the NFL passing records for:

1. Most touchdown passes in the Super Bowl

2. Most yards passing in the Super Bowl

3. Most completions in the Super Bowl

4. Most touchdown passes in conference championships games

5. Most yards passing in conference championship games

6. Most completions in conference championship games

7. Most touchdown passes in the playoffs

8. Most yards passing in the playoffs

9. Most completions in the playoffs

10. Most touchdown passes in regular season and playoffs combined

11. Most yards passing in regular season and playoffs combined

12. Most completions in regular season and playoffs combined


In addition to that:

1. Brady is tied with Drew Brees for 2nd all time in touchdown passes in the regular season. He will pass both Brees (who is inured) and P. Manning this season. Brady will be first all time in regular season touchdown passes before this season is over.

2. Brady is fourth all time in yards passing in the regular season. He will pass both Brett Favre and P. Manning this season, and will be 2nd all time in yards passing, only behind Brees.

3. Brady is fourth all time in completions in the regular season. He will pass both Brett Favre and P. Manning this season, and will be 2nd all time in completions, only behind Brees.


Tom Brady has the best stats of any quarterback ever. He has better stats than P. Manning. Tom Brady is the GOAT in stats.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#272 » by Wooderson » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:40 pm

IgorK wrote:
levon wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.

as someone who doesn't watch football, why do you say that? my understanding is that individual NBA players influence the outcome in basketball more than individuals in football?


Brady's 6 is already greater than Jordan's 6. It's more difficult to win in football for many reasons - 1-and-done playoff format, less control (Brady only plays offense, so he has no say on the defensive end, unlike basketball players), and the fact that you have 50+ teammates you need to rely on (whereas in basketball you're playing with a 12-man roster which shrinks to about 8 during playoffs).


How is the fact he doesn't influence defense a positive for Brady considering the Patriots have generally had good defenses?
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#273 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:47 pm

Wooderson wrote:How is the fact he doesn't influence defense a positive for Brady considering the Patriots have generally had good defenses?


The Patriots have not had a top 10 defense in defensive ratings, since 2006.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27626049/party-2007-barnwell-case-16-0-again-new-england

The defense might not be as good as it seems. The Patriots finished 16th in defensive DVOA last season and then lost their best pass-rusher, Trey Flowers, to Detroit in free agency. They traded for defensive end Michael Bennett, brought back linebacker Jamie Collins, and drafted pass-rusher Chase Winovich in the third round, but Belichick didn't make any other significant additions on defense.

New England has now allowed three points through two weeks. It is the best defense in football after two games, and it has even chipped in 14 points on interception returns. Given that the Pats are relatively talent-neutral with a defense that was middle of the pack last season and haven't fielded a top-10 defense by DVOA since 2006


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's just a popular hater talking point that Brady only won because of Belichick and defense. It's not at all based in fact and reality though.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#274 » by Danny1616 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:47 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:Look, Tom Brady has had the easiest road to rings for any athlete in any sport.

First, the Patriots play in the AFC East. That's the Bills, the Jets, and the Dolphins. That means a guaranteed spot in the playoffs every year. That is like 3/4ths the battle. The Dolphins are rebuilding for the next 3 years, the Jets lost Darnold, and the Bills have had 2 winning seasons in the last 14 years.

Then once you're in the playoffs, its a 50/50 chance to get to the Superbowl. But with all the little cheats that the Patriots do, it gives them an edge for maybe 60/40.

Second, Tom has had Belichick who is a defensive guru. I mean Brady won a ring in his 2nd year as a backup QB. The defense is responsible for all of Brady's wins. I remember when Brady was suspended, and the Pats still had a winning record without him.

Third, Kraft runs the NFL. He changed the rules to protect Brady. Brady is immobile as f8ck. So what did the NFL do? Changed the rules so Brady could play into his 50s. If the rules weren't changed, then Brady would be in a wheelchair right now after having played 4 seasons in the NFL.


Patriots have a better record against other divisions over Brady's career.

Also the Jets were pretty damn good in the 2000s, especially between 2009-2012.

The AFC had some of the best teams in the league in the 2000s including the Steelers (won two Super Bowls), the Colts, the Chargers (with Rivers and LD), the Ravens (with Ray Lewis).

In the 2010s, Brady still had to go through the Broncos with Manning, the Chiefs with Mahomes, the Ravens with Ray Lewis, the Steelers with Big Ben...
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#275 » by 25centsandwich » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:52 pm

I have Tom Brady as the 4th greatest player in NFL history (behind Brown, Rice, and LT).

MJ is the #1 NBA player of all-time.

So Jordan.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#276 » by IgorK » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:59 pm

Wooderson wrote:
IgorK wrote:
levon wrote:as someone who doesn't watch football, why do you say that? my understanding is that individual NBA players influence the outcome in basketball more than individuals in football?


Brady's 6 is already greater than Jordan's 6. It's more difficult to win in football for many reasons - 1-and-done playoff format, less control (Brady only plays offense, so he has no say on the defensive end, unlike basketball players), and the fact that you have 50+ teammates you need to rely on (whereas in basketball you're playing with a 12-man roster which shrinks to about 8 during playoffs).


How is the fact he doesn't influence defense a positive for Brady considering the Patriots have generally had good defenses?


Because he can only control/contribute to half the game. MJ had direct influence on both ends.

Imagine if MJ could only contribute on offense, but had no chance to contribute on the defensive end - think that helps or harms his team? This isn't to say Brady would be some sort of an amazing defensive player, all I'm saying is that 6 rings while being able to contribute for half the game is pretty effing amazing.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#277 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:42 pm

Danny1616 wrote:Patriots have a better record against other divisions over Brady's career.

Also the Jets were pretty damn good in the 2000s, especially between 2009-2012.

The AFC had some of the best teams in the league in the 2000s including the Steelers (won two Super Bowls), the Colts, the Chargers (with Rivers and LD), the Ravens (with Ray Lewis).

In the 2010s, Brady still had to go through the Broncos with Manning, the Chiefs with Mahomes, the Ravens with Ray Lewis, the Steelers with Big Ben...


Exactly, the AFC has been much more stacked than the NFC was all these years. The people that argue "the Patriots had no competition" are clearly wrong. The AFC was very tough during this Patriots dynasty. They probably would have won 9 Super Bowls already in the same era, if they were in the NFC. So that whole argument is just another hater talking point.

Ravens (multiple conference title games and a Super Bowl win)
P. Manning Colts (multiple conference title games, 2 Super Bowl appearances and a Super Bowl win)
P. Manning Broncos (multiple conference title games, 2 Super Bowl Appearances and a Super Bowl win)
Steelers (multiple conference title games, 3 Super Bowl appearances, 2 Super Bowl wins)
Chargers (7 times in the playoffs and a conference title game appearance)
Jets (multiple conference title games)
Chiefs (with Mahomes)

Just from the Ravens, Steelers, and P. Manning led teams (Colts and Broncos), you have 8 Super Bowl appearances and 5 Super Bowl championships, during the Patriots run. The argument they had "no competition" might actually be the most over the top of all the hater arguments.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#278 » by pipfan » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:49 pm

I don't understand "it's harder to win a super bowl" Aren't both equally hard? There are 30 teams, and one wins? No matter what benefit one sport has over the other in a playoff format, that benefit is shared by all the teams in that sport, therefore negated-correct?
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#279 » by Infinite Llamas » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:21 pm

I'll say it again. Belichick and Brady are the Pop and Duncan of the NFL. Scattered championships. Top playoff seed every year. Duncan has a pretty decent resume, but nobody is calling him the GOAT, despite him being the cornerstone of some dominant teams. NBA season is a grind and anybody saying it's "easy" to win 16 playoff games is deceiving themselves.
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Re: If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 

Post#280 » by infintybeyond » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:47 pm

pipfan wrote:I don't understand "it's harder to win a super bowl" Aren't both equally hard? There are 30 teams, and one wins? No matter what benefit one sport has over the other in a playoff format, that benefit is shared by all the teams in that sport, therefore negated-correct?

For one, NFL playoffs are single game eliminations (best out of 1). If you lose, you are out. You cannot have an off night. There are no game 2 adjustments because there is not a game 2. It is similar to the college basketball tournament.

MLB, NHL, NBA all have 7 game series (best out of 7). It is ok to lose game 1 because you can make necessary adjustments for game 2,3,4,5,6,7.

It's harder to win a super bowl for teams that go against the Patriots. They cheat. The refs help them cheat. The league helps them cheat ie the BS "tuck rule". It's tough to beat the NFL Patriots.

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