People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree...

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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#61 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:31 pm

The_Hater wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Sure, but he’s coming off the best season of his career so perhaps some Laker fan assuming that he’s already hot garbage is a bit of an overkill.


I mean his RPM was negative last year as he gave back pretty much everything he did on offense on defense. I'd hardly consider last year a career year due to his decline defensively. I know RPM is noisy but that seems to pass my all be it VERY limited eye test on him last year. Given his age I'd expect him to keep declining.

Worse for the clippers but while a good team can hide bad point guards, the clippers don't to my knowledge have anyone who can protect the rim when his man beats him. That just compounds the problem.

Hot garbage is over kill, but seeing him as a clear positive come playoff time is pretty questionable.


Most people would argue that you’re grossly underrating him. Apparently Sports Illustrated agrees, they just placed him 53rd in their list which was well ahead of Harrell and pretty much every other bench player in the league.


I'm not sure I'd use SI as an argument for anything, lol. I mean his defense was awful...I'm not sure how you can makeup for that if you're supposed to be an impact playoff guy on a team that doesn't look like it will need scoring.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#62 » by Jadoogar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:33 pm

I agree the Clippers should be the favourites but the Warriors had 2 MVPs + 2 more all-nba players, all in their prime and perfect fits together. They were a different level than the rest of the league.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#63 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:34 pm

Clippers are the favourites but Lakers, Bucks, Rockets are all right there. Anything could happen in the playoffs.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#64 » by The_Hater » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:35 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
I mean his RPM was negative last year as he gave back pretty much everything he did on offense on defense. I'd hardly consider last year a career year due to his decline defensively. I know RPM is noisy but that seems to pass my all be it VERY limited eye test on him last year. Given his age I'd expect him to keep declining.

Worse for the clippers but while a good team can hide bad point guards, the clippers don't to my knowledge have anyone who can protect the rim when his man beats him. That just compounds the problem.

Hot garbage is over kill, but seeing him as a clear positive come playoff time is pretty questionable.


Most people would argue that you’re grossly underrating him. Apparently Sports Illustrated agrees, they just placed him 53rd in their list which was well ahead of Harrell and pretty much every other bench player in the league.


I'm not sure I'd use SI as an argument for anything, lol. I mean his defense was awful...I'm not sure how you can makeup for that if you're supposed to be an impact playoff guy on a team that doesn't look like it will need scoring.


Well of course your opinion doesn’t jive with SI, your opinion here doesn’t agree with a huge majority of people. Just sayin.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#65 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:05 pm

The_Hater wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Most people would argue that you’re grossly underrating him. Apparently Sports Illustrated agrees, they just placed him 53rd in their list which was well ahead of Harrell and pretty much every other bench player in the league.


I'm not sure I'd use SI as an argument for anything, lol. I mean his defense was awful...I'm not sure how you can makeup for that if you're supposed to be an impact playoff guy on a team that doesn't look like it will need scoring.


Well of course your opinion doesn’t jive with SI, your opinion here doesn’t agree with a huge majority of people. Just sayin.


Haha, with rating offensive focused players, I find it's best to be in the minority.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#66 » by SeniorWalker » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:28 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
SeniorWalker wrote:I think Paul George has never been in a position where he's played with a clearly reliable true #1 option. Westbrook might have been briefly, but by the time George got there he was already post surgery and on a slight athletic decline. Still a top 15-20 player but not what he was 2-3 years ago. And that's if you even believe peak Westbrook was a true #1 in the first place. Theres certainly some debate to be had there, although I gave him credit for being a weak #1, someone who could have done better with stronger leadership fo rein him in.

George now plays behind Kawhi, who has consistently been in the top 5 for the last 3 years. His superstar level offense is rather new to most of us but assuming he is still capable of what he just did a few months ago, George now has a true #1 to play behind and does not have to worry about taking the pressure shots.

I think the clippers look the best overall on paper but they dont have a clear gap over the rest of the league or even their conference. They have a front court weakness as many have noted and need a little more playmaking.


PG before the shoulder injury was heads and shoulders better than Leonard last year. We'll see if he can both repeat his outlier season AND recover from shoulder surgery (both are highly questionable), but if he comes back like last year, he'll give Leonard more than a run for best player on the clippers.


I agree that he played better than regular season Kawhi, but has PG ever played at the level Kawhi did during the playoffs? Kawhi also deliberately played below his level during the regular season and talked about it openly. I think these things matter.
I could be wrong but I dont recall ever seeing PG play at Kawhi's 2019 playoffs level.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#67 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:31 pm

SeniorWalker wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
SeniorWalker wrote:I think Paul George has never been in a position where he's played with a clearly reliable true #1 option. Westbrook might have been briefly, but by the time George got there he was already post surgery and on a slight athletic decline. Still a top 15-20 player but not what he was 2-3 years ago. And that's if you even believe peak Westbrook was a true #1 in the first place. Theres certainly some debate to be had there, although I gave him credit for being a weak #1, someone who could have done better with stronger leadership fo rein him in.

George now plays behind Kawhi, who has consistently been in the top 5 for the last 3 years. His superstar level offense is rather new to most of us but assuming he is still capable of what he just did a few months ago, George now has a true #1 to play behind and does not have to worry about taking the pressure shots.

I think the clippers look the best overall on paper but they dont have a clear gap over the rest of the league or even their conference. They have a front court weakness as many have noted and need a little more playmaking.


PG before the shoulder injury was heads and shoulders better than Leonard last year. We'll see if he can both repeat his outlier season AND recover from shoulder surgery (both are highly questionable), but if he comes back like last year, he'll give Leonard more than a run for best player on the clippers.


I agree that he played better than regular season Kawhi, but has PG ever played at the level Kawhi did during the playoffs? Kawhi also deliberately played below his level during the regular season and talked about it openly. I think these things matter.
I could be wrong but I dont recall ever seeing PG play at Kawhi's 2019 playoffs level.


Defensively PG certainly has been better than leonard last year. Offensively no, though it's hard to judge offense when Leonard had 4 guys who could shoot, knew how to space the floor, and frankly teams couldn't really game plan him like they can on most teams with a star driven player.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#68 » by paulbball » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:41 pm

Kawhi Leonard is the biggest player of circumstances in the history of professional sports.

Good all-star, sure. MVP, generational franchise player, not even close.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#69 » by Johnny Bball » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:10 pm

One injury to the Warriors and you would still think they win. It isn't the same for the Clippers.

And I don't think they are the favorite or most likely to win fwiw.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#70 » by JonFromVA » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:21 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:I still feel like the Clippers should be a heavy favorite versus the field to win it all....


That's on paper, though. Until they show they're the team you think they are, it's fine to hope the West (if not the league) is wide open.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#71 » by Pennebaker » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:18 pm

BloodNinja wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:The problem is that Paul George is not actually that good. He's kind of a mirage, as he has been his entire career. A tier below the elite.

In the playoffs the Clippers will discover that Paul George is not enough as a #2 and they will look to add another big name in the offseason. We can start talking about Clipper dominance when they have a Big 3.

As it stands right now I dont think the Clippers can beat the Lakers in a series. LeBron and AD are both so much better than Paul George that the gap in talent (especially in terms of efficiency) will become painfully obvious.

Another reason to check the unbridled optimism...

Kawhi Leonard career averages:

17.7 pts, 6.3 reb, 2.4 ast

Paul George career averages:

19.8 pts, 6.3 reb, 3.3 ast

You've completely forgotten about the other side of these two players.


George is most definitely a good enough second option. He averaged 28ppg last season and should be good for 22+ppg with a reduced scoring load this season. And his defending was amazing. In any case the Clippers have a 3rd 20ppg scorer on the team in Lou Williams who is also a closer in crunch time.

I'm not worried about the Clippers duo talent wise. George and Leonard were 1st & 2nd All-NBA last season - they proved their worth. LeBron only managed 3rd team and AD was nowhere to be found.


George has never been an adequate first option so therefore he isnt an adequate second option - great second options should be able to be franchise players on their own and George has never been a franchise player.

Yes, we know George averaged 28 last season, but his efficiency was meh and his career average is 19, which means you're probably not going to see 28 from him again - he is not a guy that averages 26, 27, 28 points as a matter of course. In fact, last season was likely the pinnacle of George's career, and it's not great when the best you've ever done is a 23.3 PER.

So, yes you're right, you'll probably get something like 22 points on 43% shooting from PG, which is exactly my point because that is not good enough.

And Kawhi has a similar issue in that he also is not known for stringing together dominant seasons. In fact, Kawhi hasn't even had one single dominant season, let alone two in a row, or three, or five, etc.

And what the Clippers want from Kawhi he already gave to Toronto last year. So that's done. But Clippers fans are like, "Yeah just do that again, but here. Easy money." That's delusional. LAC will have to wait for his next run, whenever that may be, but it's unlikely that it will happen again this season (he is a Spur after all and they don't repeat).

So my point is that the Clippers are not getting prime MJ and prime Pippen and the 1996 Chicago Bulls like some of their fans think they are. They're getting worse players - and players who are not known for consistent or extended domination. So the Clippers are more likely to be a mid tier seed than a 69 win powerhouse/overwhelming favorites.

As far as LeBron and AD goes, everyone knows they're 1st team All-NBA guys and that last year they were limited on votes due to injury. No one doubts their greatness or ability.

For LeBron, he had a historic statistical season (27/8/8 on 51%) and had the Lakers as the 4th seed (!!!!) before his injury on Christmas, and that squad was putrid outside of him. Replace LeBron with Paul George and those Lakers don't even touch the 8th seed, let alone 4th. So it doesnt really matter what All-NBA team George was on, some things about him will always be true.

As for AD, every GM in the league would take Davis over George without a moment's hesitation. You would too if you were in that situation and had to answer to ownership and fans.

The Clippers would trade George+picks and players for Anthony Davis right now.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#72 » by Pennebaker » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:32 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:The problem is that Paul George is not actually that good. He's kind of a mirage, as he has been his entire career. A tier below the elite.

In the playoffs the Clippers will discover that Paul George is not enough as a #2 and they will look to add another big name in the offseason. We can start talking about Clipper dominance when they have a Big 3.

As it stands right now I dont think the Clippers can beat the Lakers in a series. LeBron and AD are both so much better than Paul George that the gap in talent (especially in terms of efficiency) will become painfully obvious.

Another reason to check the unbridled optimism...

Kawhi Leonard career averages:

17.7 pts, 6.3 reb, 2.4 ast

Paul George career averages:

19.8 pts, 6.3 reb, 3.3 ast

You've completely forgotten about the other side of these two players.
Why are you posting career stats for two guys who are late bloomers of sorts? It makes no sense. Both weren't even stars until their what 5th seasons? How about we look at what's more important such as recent seasons? PG doesn't even need to lead the league again in RPM or put up 28/8/4. Small drop off to 24/8/4 ish with more engaged D and he's still an All NBA team guy. Kawhi didn't even become a full blown superstar till what 3 years ago? He just turned 28. Settle down on these weird posts plz.

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"Both weren't even stars until their what 5th seasons?"

Exactly. That's their pedigree.

And for Paul George, if you call his career high 23.3 PER from last season "blooming" then I have some bad news for you.

He's going to give you worse than a 23.3 PER this season. :o Have fun with that!
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#73 » by Edrees » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:37 pm

Clipers aren't as heavy favorites as any team in the past 30 years who were defending champs while retaining their core.

You can't ever be as confident about a new team working out as a team that has already won a championship and is fielding the same team. And in most years in the NBA, the team that has won a title retains their core.

Pretty often that you think a newly assembled team is the favorite, they end up not being the favorite 30 games in the season. It's happened way to often to not at least consider it a reasonable possibility for the Clippers.

Accounting for that possibility they aren't heavy favorites, just favorites.

The other aspect to this has nothing to do with the Clippers, and has to do with how good other teams are. There are a lot of teams with championship calibur rosters. Being "wide open" has as much to do with accounting for the fact that everything could go right for one of these other teams. In previous years there just weren't as high of quantity of teams that had all the tools to win a championship. (Rockets, Bucks, Warriors, Lakers, Nuggets, 76ers, etc) MANY teams have multiple stars on them, where in the past, not many teams had 2 top 15 players on the same team.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#74 » by lakerz12 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:48 pm

The_Hater wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
You’re just helping prove my point. They went 8-6 without Gallo and 18-9 without Harris last season. Doesn’t that just prove how good their depth is? That’s the way it looks to me.

And yes, if you remove the Clipper 2 best players that is a lottery team. As are the Lakers without their 2 best players, and the Rockets and the Warriors, and the Blazers and the Nuggets and the Jazz. I’m not exactly sure what point you think this makes but the Clippers still have excellent depth regardless. They’re one of the 3-4 deepest teams in the league.


No, that doesn't prove anything. 18-9 without Harris? Didn't they still have Gallo, SGA, and Bradley playing a ton of minutes? Those guys aren't on this team anymore. You're proving my point.

This roster is totally different to last year's, so any comparisons are meaningless.

You haven't explained how their depth is quality. If I look at the statistics of the supporting cast it is mediocre at best.

It's 2 All NBA players and a bunch of average NBA players. Harrell is the only one who's actually above average.


Lou Williams own the 6man award last year for the 3rd time. Doesn’t count in your eyes huh?

Since you refuse to concede the most obvious of points, and it appears that you’re just being spiteful because it’s the Clippers, I’m going to leave you alone now so that you can be delusional about the Clippers terrible roster by yourself. Good luck.


The most obvious of points? You didn't make a single point, let alone an obvious one. They won 48 games without KL/PG13? I and others have already explained how that's an irrelevant stat. What other points did you make? Just saying "they have a great supporting cast and have excellent depth" is not a point. You have to actually demonstrate why that is true.

Lou Williams is about to turn 33 and as you've pointed out he's a 6th man. If you look at the NBA as a whole, he might be slightly above average but not by much.

I'm not saying they don't have a good team. I'm just pointing out the obvious that they are two great players and the rest are role players.

If you want an example of more talent across the board, look at the Sixers. Simmons, Harris, Horford, Embiid, J. Richardson. That's a more talented roster. They have 3-4 All Star level players as opposed to 2.

That doesn't mean the Clippers can't be the best team if they show superior chemistry and effort on defense. I'm simply pointing out that they lack talented players outside of KL/PG13, especially offensively.

Especially if you compare them to past champions like GSW with KD, Curry, Klay, Draymond, etc. - - this clearly a much more talented roster.

Even Toronto w/ Kawhi, Siakam, Lowry, Gasol is more talented.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#75 » by bape_lovers » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:55 pm

with Demar hitting a game winner :D

Bornstellar wrote:It's not 2015-2016 any more, and Kawhi is nowhere near as good on D now as he was back then. But I agree, Clippers are definitely the favorite.

My Spurs will nab the 8th seed and play them in the 1st round and shock the world by getting our revenge on Nephew. Just wait. 8-)
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#76 » by Forte IV » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:58 pm

Feels good to be on top. People climbing over each other to prove the team you root for isn't that good and say their team belongs on top. Groveling at the mouth to nitpick here and nitpick there. The results of the finals was decided when the earthquake struck.
If you want a good laugh, read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1765067
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#77 » by Lalouie » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:53 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:I still feel like the Clippers should be a heavy favorite versus the field to win it all....


When you have


A. Kawhi Leonard who most people think is the best player in the league now, and previous finals MVP. The best defensive SF in the league hands down.

B. Paul George who win slated at the SG position can easily give you 25 PPG per night and potentially the best
defensive SG in the league.

C. Patrick Beverly not a great player but considering he's the best defensive PG in the league and you ADD that to 2 of the best defensive players.

You potentially have the best defensive team we have seen in a long time.

D. You have Lou Williams coming off the bench, the leagues best 6th

E. Montrezl Harrell who isn't elite but a very underrated part of this team who gave them 17 PPG on 61% FG.

Imo I don't think there is a team who matches up good enough BOTH on the offensive and defensive side.

* 76ers still haven't proven their offense is good enough to compete legitimately with a defense this good.

* For the Lakers Lebron is in his 18th season, and low post bigs like AD are severely limited on impact in today's league.

* Jazz maybe, but they need Conley and can he stay healthy and jive with Mitchell in the back court.

* Nuggets don't have near the balance from the defensive end.

* Rockets I don't trust Westbrook and Harden to close especially when their games overlap far too much.

* Bucks rely too much on Giannis who Kawhi basically shut down last year.

* Portland don't even get me started...

*Warriors, probably the least likely of any team considering their offense is all going to come where Clippers are best defensively.

Wide Open in regards to how heavily the Warriors were going into last season, sure yes. But Clippers should be the overwhelming Favorites considering their roster is the most balanced by a good margin assuming health is good.


forget the east forget the young teams. they're 3 years away.
this only involves the west.
when the dominant team loses two of it's best players, there will always be a regression to the pack. the loss of their wins will distribute to the other top teams.

wide open does not mean 10 teams have an equal chance. pro sports has never been that way. wide open means a new set of teams in the finals. wide open means the patriots not being in the finals. it means serena missing the finals. wide open would mean, say, bama having a bad year. it means the loss of THE DOMINANT force of the league.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#78 » by stuporman » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:09 pm

You say it's not wide open then say the Clips are the fav......if the Clips are a fav that proves how wide open it is. Self ownage.
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#79 » by mademan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:28 am

Warriors overwhelmed you with talent; Clippers arent going to do that. More importantly, that talent, allowed GSW to cover up some of their weaknesses. The Clips dont have the same luxury
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Re: People who say the NBA is more wide open this year than previous years, I disagree... 

Post#80 » by NZB2323 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:41 am

Paul George had shoulder surgery during the off season and Kawhi was limping at the championship parade.

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