RealGM

In the context of a GOAT debate, can Kobe even be considered in light of the following statistical shortcomings:

1. 2000 nba finals - 16 PPG, 5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.4 BPG, 36% FG%, 33/90

2. 2004 nba finals - 22 PPG, 3 RPG, 4 APG, .6 BPG, 43/113 38% FG

3. 2008 nba finals - 25 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5 APG, .16 BPG, 53/131 40% FG.

4. Game winners in last 5 seconds of a playoff game - 8/27

5. Career fg - 44.7. Career high fg single season 46.7

6. Career 3fg 32.7 on 4.1 attempts

7. Excluding his rookie season, seasons of 15/3/2.5, 42.8 fg, and 20/5/4

8. 6 years in playoffs shooting 43 fg or worse

I guess we needed a Kobe slander thread before the season started. And no, I don't consider Kobe in the GOAT discussion, I am a rational human being.

Funcrusher wrote:I guess we needed a Kobe slander thread before the season started. And no, I don't consider Kobe in the GOAT discussion, I am a rational human being.

then you are not a rational human being..

Kawhi Hands wrote:

Funcrusher wrote:I guess we needed a Kobe slander thread before the season started. And no, I don't consider Kobe in the GOAT discussion, I am a rational human being.

then you are not a rational human being..

No, i'm thinking I am.

I’ve pulled back the reigns on Kobe hating after it became so trendy, but the fact remains that he simply doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation. Even if you’re a sucker for “mamba mentality”, volume scoring and championship success, he’s clearly a worse player than MJ.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I’ve pulled back the reigns on Kobe hating after it became so trendy, but the fact remains that he simply doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation. Even if you’re a sucker for “mamba mentality”, volume scoring and championship success, he’s clearly a worse player than MJ.

A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Kobe doesn't belong in the GOAT conversation. Putting him in it just brings unnecessary hate. Compare him to the top 10-15 players where he belongs.

"LeBron better."

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

IBFL.

Kobe was a chucker. A taller AI with a better supporting cast.

triple_threat wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I’ve pulled back the reigns on Kobe hating after it became so trendy, but the fact remains that he simply doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation. Even if you’re a sucker for “mamba mentality”, volume scoring and championship success, he’s clearly a worse player than MJ.

A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Sure but playing with peak Shaq played a part in that. He averaged 30+ 3 seasons and 25+ 12 seasons, which is as good as anyone not named Jordan post merger.

I'm not big on ppg though, which is why Kobe is roughly #15 in my all-time rankings.

He won 5 chips and averaged 28, 6, 5 on good overall percentages with extremely good defense.

Name players that have done more in terms of winning and stats combined?

I can think of very few

- Kobe is clearly not a GOAT candidate... but I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. He was a great player and belongs in the 10-15 discussion (which is insanely good). One thing that gets overlooked with Kobe (and with other players like MJ and Lebron to some extent) is that he generally maintained a low TOV%. For whatever reason, people just ignore TOV% and focus on TS%.

triple_threat wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I’ve pulled back the reigns on Kobe hating after it became so trendy, but the fact remains that he simply doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation. Even if you’re a sucker for “mamba mentality”, volume scoring and championship success, he’s clearly a worse player than MJ.

A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Kind of lazy to only look at raw career average especially for kobe since he didn't hit his prime till year 5\6

And last 3 years were horrific

His averages we're close to 29/6/5 45%fg 33%3fg
85% ft (from memory) at his peak
01-13

I always enjoy people referencing Kobe's finals series against by far the two best defensive teams in NBA history.

I guess thats one way to eliminate him from a GOAT debate he was never in in the first place.

Heat4lyf wrote:

triple_threat wrote:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I’ve pulled back the reigns on Kobe hating after it became so trendy, but the fact remains that he simply doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation. Even if you’re a sucker for “mamba mentality”, volume scoring and championship success, he’s clearly a worse player than MJ.

A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Kind of lazy to only look at raw career average especially for kobe since he didn't hit his prime till year 5\6

And last 3 years were horrific

His averages we're close to 29/6/5 45%fg 33%3fg
85% ft (from memory) at his peak
01-13

Years 1 -4 and the last 3 years form part of the assessment

Funny how you're posting only "Finals" stats. Tell me what his 1st round/2nd round/conference finals numbers are again? Tell me what his numbers against those Kings/Spurs/Suns/Nuggets teams are again? And if you watched from the 2000's and on. You wouldn't be having this convo child.

To me, he's easily one of the most memorable players of all time, but not one of the very best (top 2-5) and that's the difference. I've seen very few players in my years who captivated the basketball public like Kobe did, and I think people tend to conflate that with how well he played basketball, and therefore place him in slightly higher tier than he's really in on an all-time level.

triple_threat wrote:

Heat4lyf wrote:

triple_threat wrote:
A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Kind of lazy to only look at raw career average especially for kobe since he didn't hit his prime till year 5\6

And last 3 years were horrific

His averages we're close to 29/6/5 45%fg 33%3fg
85% ft (from memory) at his peak
01-13

Years 1 -4 and the last 3 years form part of the assessment

I don't see how you'd judge a player post torn Achilles or when they were 17 and playing 15mpg as part of who they were as a player.

I wouldn't look at Jordan with the wizards if I'm trying to get a picture of how great Jordan was and when he was great

Lebrons greatness doesn't begin at his rookie year we see how good he is in his sophomore year

Doing the whole career just doesn't properly encapsulate a players greatness