Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup?

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Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup?

Coaching stuff being outcoached
64
11%
Players playing ISO ball
92
15%
Superstars refusing to represent their own country
240
40%
No one. They're just not good enough
95
16%
No one cares about FIBA world cup
105
18%
 
Total votes: 596

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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#261 » by Sixerscan » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:38 am

Mirotic12 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Just not realistic to expect the top American players to play in a tournament like this 11 months before the olympics with a full nba season in between.

The U23 (or U25 or whatever) for the WC is an interesting angle. Eliminates the need to ask guys to commit two straight summers.


The opposite is what is going to happen. The Olympics is going to become the under 23 tournament, and the World Cup is going to be the only world tournament for senior men. The NBA and FIBA have been planning that for a long time, and even people associated to FIBA have said it is happening soon.

The latest talk is that the 2028 Olympics basketball will be an under-23 only tournament.

Nate505 wrote:To the US players though it isn't. The Olympics is the major tournament they care about, as and as they are the best players in the world, it makes that tournament the most prestigious.


FIBA is going to make the Olympics an under-23 tournament. This has been known for several years now. So the USA players will have to get with the rest of the world, whether they like it or not.


Or they just don't play international ball at all. Olympics are fun, this world cup thing is barely more than a cash grab.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#262 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:46 am

Sixerscan wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Just not realistic to expect the top American players to play in a tournament like this 11 months before the olympics with a full nba season in between.

The U23 (or U25 or whatever) for the WC is an interesting angle. Eliminates the need to ask guys to commit two straight summers.


The opposite is what is going to happen. The Olympics is going to become the under 23 tournament, and the World Cup is going to be the only world tournament for senior men. The NBA and FIBA have been planning that for a long time, and even people associated to FIBA have said it is happening soon.

The latest talk is that the 2028 Olympics basketball will be an under-23 only tournament.

Nate505 wrote:To the US players though it isn't. The Olympics is the major tournament they care about, as and as they are the best players in the world, it makes that tournament the most prestigious.


FIBA is going to make the Olympics an under-23 tournament. This has been known for several years now. So the USA players will have to get with the rest of the world, whether they like it or not.


Or they just don't play international ball at all. Olympics are fun, this world cup thing is barely more than a cash grab.

But isn't this the means of qualifying for Olympics?
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#263 » by OzThunder » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:56 am

GREY 1769 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
The opposite is what is going to happen. The Olympics is going to become the under 23 tournament, and the World Cup is going to be the only world tournament for senior men. The NBA and FIBA have been planning that for a long time, and even people associated to FIBA have said it is happening soon.

The latest talk is that the 2028 Olympics basketball will be an under-23 only tournament.



FIBA is going to make the Olympics an under-23 tournament. This has been known for several years now. So the USA players will have to get with the rest of the world, whether they like it or not.


Or they just don't play international ball at all. Olympics are fun, this world cup thing is barely more than a cash grab.

But isn't this the means of qualifying for Olympics?


Yeah it is. USA qualified by being a top 2 americas finisher (with Argentina).
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#264 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:01 am

OzThunder wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Or they just don't play international ball at all. Olympics are fun, this world cup thing is barely more than a cash grab.

But isn't this the means of qualifying for Olympics?


Yeah it is. USA qualified by being a top 2 americas finisher (with Argentina).

Thank you, I knew that but it reinforces the point - you can't skip the international play entirely if you want to play in the Olympics.

I understand that there are other tournaments for countries that do not qualify via the WC, but it looks as if teams try to do it this way first. It would make no sense to get into secondary do or die situations if they can be avoided.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#265 » by Sixerscan » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:08 am

GREY 1769 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
The opposite is what is going to happen. The Olympics is going to become the under 23 tournament, and the World Cup is going to be the only world tournament for senior men. The NBA and FIBA have been planning that for a long time, and even people associated to FIBA have said it is happening soon.

The latest talk is that the 2028 Olympics basketball will be an under-23 only tournament.



FIBA is going to make the Olympics an under-23 tournament. This has been known for several years now. So the USA players will have to get with the rest of the world, whether they like it or not.


Or they just don't play international ball at all. Olympics are fun, this world cup thing is barely more than a cash grab.

But isn't this the means of qualifying for Olympics?


If they're not allowed to play in the Olympics what's the point of qualifying for the Olympics?
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#266 » by TheFinishSniper » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:09 am

players who quited. remember their names when Olympics come and want to be on roster
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#267 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:11 am

Sixerscan wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Or they just don't play international ball at all. Olympics are fun, this world cup thing is barely more than a cash grab.

But isn't this the means of qualifying for Olympics?


If they're not allowed to play in the Olympics what's the point of qualifying for the Olympics?

Well they are, just the under-23-year-olds at some point, so presumably they'd still have to go through the process. But if the NBA decides they don't want in in this type of rule, then of course, it would be even less incentive than it seems to be now.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#268 » by zgope1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:26 am

The blame lies with the selection committee. They sent a bad roster over. Fundamentally the US lineup was a crumby passing lineup at all times. All of the playmaking came down to pick and rolls. The ball stops with so many of these guys. The international defences throw a lot of schemes at you and you need to flick the ball around until they break down. All of these Americans hotwire in those circumstances and can’t run complex offence. A passing big would’ve made a huge difference but the best of them is Plumlee who got chewed up by heavy motion offences.

The other reason is the choking from Smart and Kemba at the line when it counted
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#269 » by MeestR » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:35 am

Team USA organization.

The team needs cohesion. And a multiyear commitment. Perhaps the NBA (and/or other pro leagues) and FIBA should compromise their rules a bit more so they could play more similar games. So in a way, maybe NBA players are a bit behind the 8-ball with them playing a more dissimilar game? But no one will feel that sorry considering they are supposed to be the most skilled players in the world.

Maybe Pop? Maybe Pop's boss? Maybe the nba players who quit on the team? Maybe it's a whole culture thing that doesn't value the FIBA world cup as much as the Olympics or even FIFA. These games were on practically in the middle of the night sometimes with no replay. When I tried talking about it at work, (based on what i read when i woke up) people either shrugged it off because it was summer basketball, or they legitimately thought i was talking about soccer. And this is in Utah.

I think it is a value and commitment thing. The lackadaisical approach to the competition and the marketing by TEAM USA and by the sponsors and by the networks compound the problem.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#270 » by Darth Celtic » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:37 am

og15 wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
OzThunder wrote:
Why can Australia get away with a big rotation of Baynes/ Bogut/ Landale? Is that not comparable to Turner/ Lopez/ Plumlee?

System and coaching. I don't think anyone before this tournament would've entertained that Baynes and Bogut were in the same stratosphere as Turner and Lopez. Now they're trash low quality big men? Turner lead the lead in blocks... and now he's not good enough to be on the court with Gobert? Something isn't clicking for you guys.


Turner is an average player. Lots of teams here have better centers than him, in terms of skills and what they can do on offense. Lopez is one of the the softest bigs on the planet. This style of play is too physical for him. If he can't make 3s, he's pretty much a totally useless player. I don't think he's shooting that well at all. Plumlee.......I'm not even sure where to begin, but I really doubt if he could even make the rotations of the other good teams in the tournament.
This is actually pretty funny considering the guy didn't shoot three's until three seasons ago and was a post / face-up guy averaging around 19-20 ppg from his 2nd season until his last season with the Nets, about 8 seasons. He didn't magically forget all those skills just because his NBA role was changed.

Have you watched Lopez try and score in the post the last 3 years? He absolutely forgot those skills. He was overrated when he did it, and is terrible at it now.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#271 » by Spens1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:47 am

The NBA and the teams that didn't want their players going to play in the world cup. You aren't winning anything with a team that has Joe freaking Harris in the lineup and little to no chemistry.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#272 » by Mikistan » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:50 am

This team needed Fred van Vleet so badly, oh well
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#273 » by Greyhound » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:09 am

THE J0KER wrote:
ZemGOAT wrote:Rudy Gobert

Coaches which used NBA players way too different than their role is in NBA make big mistakes. Jokic as forward and Middleton as center are bad ideas.

Using a small-ball option as plan-A USA Afroamericans even clearly outrebounded their taller opponents, thanks to great athleticism, speed, and competitive NBA experience. But it is obvious that the only team in China aginst it will not works so well is physically superior French team with DPOY center Gobert which will not give you cheap rebounds, but the USA still insists on small-ball strategy. That said, if Kemba was less terrible today and/or Tatum was healthy, I see a different outcome for this match.

But for Americans, this is actually a great result for their chances to win Olympic Gold in Tokyo 2020, because after this disaster I guess at least starting five at OG will be all-star level players and more than 3 preparation games before the tournament. The biggest mistake would be to mock in disgrace players which sacrifice this summer to play for National Team.


I bet it is.

That is probably what USA Basketball was betting on with this god awful roster. Hopefully the players do what is in their best interest individually (and not get shamed into playing).

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College coaches are better for Team USA then NBA coaches. Pop (Just like Larry Brown before him) needs to be handed his pink slip.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#274 » by simonbampfield » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:22 am

OzThunder wrote:People say they didn't have enough talent, but compare them to Australia for example:

Delly (NBA bench) / Sobey (NBL)
Mills (Good NBA bench) / Goulding (Fringe NBA chance) / Gliddon (NBL)
Ingles (Decent NBA starter) / Creek (Fringe NBA chance)
Landale (Fringe NBA chance) / Kay (NBL) / Barlow (NBL role player)
Baynes (Good NBA bench) / Bogut (NBA bench)

Compare that to a team of NBA allstars and starters....... and i think you have to start to realise it comes down to coaching, style, culture and fit.

You could do the same with France, Czech Republuc, Turkey, Argentina etc etc


I can't understand why people don't realise this.
It's so glaringly obvious.

I don't think it's as easy as plugging a superstar in either. The style these guys played made it difficult. That France game would have looked a lot worse if it wasn't for Mitchell.
They took a modern NBA approach to a style that is still aligned with more traditional positioning and a game that revolves around ball movement even though teams are shooting more 3s.
Anyone can see that with the increase in physicality it is the wrong strategy to go ISO too much which the US did.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#275 » by OzThunder » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:15 am

In a physical gritty tournament, they didn't bring a single good rebounder (in any position) or a single good passer (in any position).

They then didn't adjust game style to compensate for this.

1) Bring different personal,- fit over talent. i.e: don't bring 3 non rebounding centres and no PF cos they're the best available. Someone like Jerami Grant or everyone's favourite Mitchell Robiinson would've been more valuable than Brook Lopez and Plumlee. Three non rebounding bigs and 3 score first PGs. Pretty weird choice.

2) Adjust: my biggest criticism. They have speed, length and athleticism. Double the ball, sting on balls, trap outside the key, heavily rotate on rollers. Force turnovers and run out of it. This is what the good USA teams have done, regardless of talent level. Sitting back playing one on one D with limited help just played right out of their hands.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#276 » by Usual Suspects » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:26 am

Some of their roster decisions were just mind-numbing, even with so many dropping out. Like choosing Plumlee over Adebayo, only bc you might have to face his teammate Jokic, seemed idiotic to me.

Aside from that, choosing not one true point guard, Derrick White is not in, and Kemba only plays point bc of his size. There are many issues aside from roster as well involving coaching, but they all couldve been solved with a better lineup, even with a plethora of drop outs.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#277 » by lonzo_pelota » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:27 am

at least celtic fans will understand their teams deficiencies having seen there starters collapse already during pressure situations
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#278 » by HollowEarth » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:28 am

OzThunder wrote:People say they didn't have enough talent, but compare them to Australia for example:

Delly (NBA bench) / Sobey (NBL)
Mills (Good NBA bench) / Goulding (Fringe NBA chance) / Gliddon (NBL)
Ingles (Decent NBA starter) / Creek (Fringe NBA chance)
Landale (Fringe NBA chance) / Kay (NBL) / Barlow (NBL role player)
Baynes (Good NBA bench) / Bogut (NBA bench)

Compare that to a team of NBA allstars and starters....... and i think you have to start to realise it comes down to coaching, style, culture and fit.

You could do the same with France, Czech Republuc, Turkey, Argentina etc etc
Agreed. People criticize the end of the bench guys mainly Derrick White. No he's not a star, but he started the majority of games for a NBA playoff team last year. Plumlee is the other guy I see people saying didn't belong, but was another end of the bench guy most likely brought along for experience and insight on Jokic. That's USA's 11th and 12th man. Pretty much every other team was starting at least one guy who couldn't even hang in the NBA.

Team USA could go nine men deep with solid NBA starters. It's just flat our more talent.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#279 » by Usual Suspects » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:31 am

lonzo_pelota wrote:at least celtic fans will understand their teams deficiencies having seen there starters collapse already during pressure situations


I love Kemba, but his hype this past season and off-season was just ridiculous. He's an excellent player, but not in the Kyrie tier at all.
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Re: Who is to be blamed for USA failure in FIBA world cup? 

Post#280 » by gorz » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:09 am

When the us team lost to gleague squad TWICE during scrimmage I knew we were in trouble. I still gave them the benefit of the doubt but man this was really disappointing. The defense of this team was absolutely pathetic. The bigs on this team were almost useless. mason plumlee? brook lopez? Joe Harris was barely utilized what was the point of even having him on the team? Overall team was poorly constructed and lacked toughness, athleticism and that killer instinct of us teams in the past.



THis team would have won gold.

De'Aaron Fox-playmaker/perimeter defender
Kemba Walker-playmaker
Donovan Mitchell-scorer/playmaker
D'Angelo Russell-playmaker/shooter
Devin Booker-scorer/shooter
Jayson Tatum-scorer
Brandon Ingram-scorer/perimeter defense
Jahlil Okafor-low post scorer
Julius Randle-low post scorer/rebounder
Myles Turner-shot blocker/rebounder
Mitchell Robinson-shot blocker/rebounder
Bam Adebayo-rebounder/shot blocker

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