Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz?

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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#41 » by KqWIN » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:21 pm

NCHeels2008 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Gobert is clearly the best player on the Jazz. It's not particularly close. Conley has been better than Mitchell, but it's close. With development and age related regression I think it's likely that Mitchell will be better than him this upcoming season. The Jazz are going to need Mitchell to breakout into a top 15 player like Gobert to make a finals run.


Rudy is better against 25 teams, the fact he can be played off the floor by some of the top teams is a fatal flaw in calling him your best player IMO. I'd take Mitchell as the best player from a title aspirations perspective.


The fatal flaw in your statement about Gobert getting played off he court is false and that Donovan Mitchell was actually the worse player in both HOU series.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#42 » by erudite23 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:54 pm

The narrative that Gobert can be "played off the floor" is a false one. There's no team in the league who pushes the boundaries of what's possible than the Rockets, and they weren't able to force him off, despite pushing to isolate him against Harden and Paul, successfully at times, playing a 6'6" forward at the center position and dragging him out to the corner and all other manner of tricks. Rudy stayed on the court and was extremely effective, forcing Harden into some truly God awful shooting performances and locking down everything within 15 ft of the rim.

If the Jazz had simply made their wide open shots at a decent clip (their offense produced the most open looks of any 1st round playoff team) then the Jazz win that series and this thread is much different.

The Jazz' failures in the playoffs each of the last two seasons have been offensively, and not due to a clogged lane, but because of players who haven't been able to hit open shots and/or beat their man and break the paint.

If you put Rudy on the Rockets team, he'd be a universally regarded top 10 player.

Mitchell has been a bit overrated the last couple seasons, but he's also been forced into a role that almost no young guard has ever been capable of fulfilling (maybe a couple exceptions). With more playmakers around him, he can focus on hitting open jumpers and beating closeouts far more and attacking a set defense late in the shot clock far less. He'll probably be far more effective in that role and score less, leading people to believe that he's "declined."

Donovan is not the best player, but, as other Jazz fans have pointed out already, he's the most important. Going to be fun watching him grow.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#43 » by wutevahung » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Gooner wrote:He is the best, someone needs to carry a scoring load.


was he a top 20 players last year? Gobert is arguably in the top 10, and definitely is in top 15.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#44 » by jazzfan1971 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:08 pm

Crives wrote:No Gobert... no chance to make playoffs...
No Mitchell.... decent chance to make playoffs...


Seems about right. Jazz depth behind Gobert is not great since Favors is gone. Jazz will be forced into some pretty awkward lineups if Gobert goes down.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#45 » by Danny1616 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:17 pm

Offensively he's their best player, but Gobert is overall the best player in terms of impact.

You can make the case for Conley over Mitchell as well.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#46 » by Lexluthor » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:39 pm

If The Jazz want to be a contender in the West it has to be Donovan Mitchell team . The team is heading nowhere if Gobert is your best player.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#47 » by mudsak » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:14 pm

kio80 wrote:
KqWIN wrote:Gobert is clearly the best player on the Jazz. It's not particularly close. Conley has been better than Mitchell, but it's close. With development and age related regression I think it's likely that Mitchell will be better than him this upcoming season. The Jazz are going to need Mitchell to breakout into a top 15 player like Gobert to make a finals run.


We all hope Mitchell to take that extra leap next season.
Just realizing from this recent FIBA tournament, Ingles is a much better playmaker and leader than I thought he was, if he was given more of an opportunity to take the lead along with Conley.... Mitchell is probably the best scorer, but according to the current Jazz roster, is a score first, high usage ball dominate guard a good fit?


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How did you not realize Ingles was the GOAT?

In all seriousness though... Ingles is not a better player than Mitchell is. I'm a huge fan of Ingles, he's got to be one of my favorite players in the league. I've also watched him play a hell of a lot because I'm a Jazz fan. He's got a high BBIQ, and doesn't particularly have any weaknesses in his game. He knows his limitations, and he knows how to utilize his abilities to maximum potential.

All that said... the intangibles that Joe has are more refined than Mitchell. I'd argue that a lot of that comes with time/experience. Mitchell is far and away the much more talented player. This coming season will only be his 3rd year in the league, and he has been at the helm leading this Jazz team into the Playoffs 2 years in a row. He in fact broke some rookie playoff records in his first campaign.

Gobert is the best player on the Jazz. However, I think Mitchell is very likely to develop to the point that he shares that crown with Gobert. They'll be best player A and B... and the complimentary aspect will be ideal because they possess such drastically different skill sets.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#48 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:16 pm

3rd going into the season, but he'll probably establish himself as #2 this year
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#49 » by erudite23 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:39 pm

Lexluthor wrote:If The Jazz want to be a contender in the West it has to be Donovan Mitchell team . The team is heading nowhere if Gobert is your best player.



Not nowhere....just not likely to the NBA Finals. The Jazz could absolutely make it to and win a couple games in the WCF with Gobert as their best player. And that's pretty f**king good.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#50 » by Dominater » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:05 am

Bum Adebayo wrote:Seeing how well Embiid and Jimmy played in playoffs, and the addition of Horford combined with the increased role Harris will have, is Simmons as important as we thought he was for the team?
I’d say he’s probably the 3rd or 4th most important player in the currently Sixers roster.

Well Jimmy is no longer a Sixer and Josh is a huge downgrade imo. And Harris is not more important than Simmons not a chance. Will be a top 3 worst contract very soon.

But to stay on topic, as stated, if Mitchell doesn't catapult himself to the Jazz best player, or atleast a 1B, they aren't gonna go very far.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#51 » by Frank Dux » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:27 am

He’s a sub 54% TS guy. That’s not very good for a scorer who doesn’t do much else at a high level. He has zero argument over Gobert.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#52 » by kio80 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:36 am

Any chance Mitchell or Bojan come off the bench like Lou to give the team that extra boost while the starters rest?
Seems possible with this current stacked Jazz roster.



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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#53 » by youngthegiant » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:50 am

I would say 3rd based on last season but if Jazz want a ring he needs to be #1.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#54 » by og15 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:23 am

So far, Mitchell hasn't performed in any way for a whole season that suggests he's better than the best we've seen from Conley. That doesn't mean things aren't going to be different this coming season. It would also be very hard to argue for him over DPOY Gobert as he's only better in volume scoring and ball handing. That said, there's absolutely no argument for Ingles.

Depending on how things shake out, he very well could be the third best player. Conley as a top level creator, especially in late clock and offense break down situations should help Mitchell's shot selection though, which should make him produce better. Rubio the outgoing guy is not and has never been a good late clock / create something out of nothing scoring option, which I have mentioned before that at the top end of PG's this is a skill you want them to have and which is what always removes guys like Rubio and Rondo from that level due to lack of consistency in being able to do that for the team.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#55 » by TheBallsDeeper » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:53 am

Mitchell is an undersized shooting guard that is not very good at shooting. He lacks the BBIQ to play as a point guard, and continually takes poor contested shots. Gobert is the best defensive player in the game, and in my opinion the first centre that I would pick if putting together a team.

Mitchell has been terrible the last two years in the playoffs, he shot them out of the playoffs two years in a row with his poor volume shooting.

If Mitchell is the best player on the team the Jazz are not going far. If he is the 3rd or 4th best and can play high energy defense and take smarter shots with some scoring runs, Jazz can be a contender, especially if the team is build around Gobert.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#56 » by bebopdeluxe » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:14 am

TheBallsDeeper wrote:Mitchell is an undersized shooting guard that is not very good at shooting. He lacks the BBIQ to play as a point guard, and continually takes poor contested shots. Gobert is the best defensive player in the game, and in my opinion the first centre that I would pick if putting together a team.

Mitchell has been terrible the last two years in the playoffs, he shot them out of the playoffs two years in a row with his poor volume shooting.

If Mitchell is the best player on the team the Jazz are not going far. If he is the 3rd or 4th best and can play high energy defense and take smarter shots with some scoring runs, Jazz can be a contender, especially if the team is build around Gobert.


He may be the best defensive center in the game, but Embiid is not that far behind (looking at advanced metrics) and is the far FAR superior offensive player.

Gobert is the Jazz’s most valuable player and - right now, at least - it isn’t close. I would agree that for the Jazz to win a chip, Mitchell is going tomhave to morph into a DWade like stud. Is that possible? Yeah...but he’s not there yet...not even close.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#57 » by TheBallsDeeper » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:25 am

bebopdeluxe wrote:
TheBallsDeeper wrote:Mitchell is an undersized shooting guard that is not very good at shooting. He lacks the BBIQ to play as a point guard, and continually takes poor contested shots. Gobert is the best defensive player in the game, and in my opinion the first centre that I would pick if putting together a team.

Mitchell has been terrible the last two years in the playoffs, he shot them out of the playoffs two years in a row with his poor volume shooting.

If Mitchell is the best player on the team the Jazz are not going far. If he is the 3rd or 4th best and can play high energy defense and take smarter shots with some scoring runs, Jazz can be a contender, especially if the team is build around Gobert.


He may be the best defensive center in the game, but Embiid is not that far behind (looking at advanced metrics) and is the far FAR superior offensive player.

Gobert is the Jazz’s most valuable player and - right now, at least - it isn’t close. I would agree that for the Jazz to win a chip, Mitchell is going tomhave to morph into a DWade like stud. Is that possible? Yeah...but he’s not there yet...not even close.

At his best Embiid is a great defensive and offensive player, and in my opinion the third best player in the league (Kawhi 1st, Lebron 2nd), much better on offense than Gobert, and Gobert is slightly better defensively.

However I don't trust Embiid. There are too many instances when he struggles to play due to sickness, I think he has a low pain threshold. So if I was building a team to win a championship I would take Gobert at center.

Mitchell could morph into DWade, and Simmons could start shooting like Curry. Both about as likely as each other. Mitchell should play to his strengths and reduce his shot volume, concentrate on defense and stop playing hero ball.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#58 » by KqWIN » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:46 am

If you think Mitchell took too many shots, you've gotta name a player who was capable of increasing his usage. Number two and three were Rubio and Ingles. Everyone on the Jazz was playing at maximum or above it. Most of the rotation was hitting career high marks in usage over the last two years.

If nothing changes with Conley and Bogdanovic...then we can talk about taking too many shots.
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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#59 » by Clay Davis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:53 am

sportsyard wrote:Kind of reminds me of DeRozen on the Raptors. #1 scoring option, but wasn't the best or most important player, that was always Lowry. For Utah, that's Gobert.

I've got a sneaky feeling to get over the hump and win a title, Jazz will have to land a star via moving Mitchell. Until then, they will always be a western finals contender.

So many parallels to the the 2019 Raptors though
They're kinda like the 2018 Raptors but with 2019 Siakam and Gasol instead of JV.

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Re: Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz? 

Post#60 » by Jables » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:01 am

He is probably not even the second best player, but he's their most important player, a cop out but it's true.

However the warning signs for his career path, we've seen it so many times. When the media is hyping you up as a bit better than you really are, the downfall can be just as dramatic as the rise. If he is improving his defense like he says he is then I'll be more confident in him.

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