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Ontario wrote:

Joerezz7 wrote:He allowed younger star players like Steph and Klay to catch him in rings and they are younger. If KD played against the Raptors they would have more rings than him and KD would have the same amount of rings as him.

This is why Lebron will never be in the same tier as Kobe and MJ. MJ went 6-0 in the Finals and Kobe went 5-2 in the Finals. Kobe would never allow younger star players to catch him in rings in his era. Same with MJ.

How can you be the GOAT when younger star players catch you in rings basically forming a dynasty in your era? Let’s not forget Dirk getting a ring in his era and he lost to a bum like Dwight Howard in 2009. Lakers manhandled that same Magic team.

Unless Lebron wins another ring you can’t put him in the same tier as lethal offense players like Kobe and MJ.

Probably because 'rings' is the most foolish way to measure a player.

In this thread, I've seen finals losses listed as a barometer for greatness. I guess anything goes.

If there's ANYONE that should be complaining about the Warriors dominance, it should be Rockets or the Spurs...Western Conference teams that were DIRECTLY effected by the Warrior's dominance. Rockets literally had the win in the palm of their hands. But its not. It's Lebron fans crying and whining instead.

Its a true testament to how numb fans of Western Conference teams are to competition. It's second nature to us and just a part of the journey.
And the players STILL stay in the conference without jumping ship and playing in the JV conference.

Competition matters...and thats why you barely hear Rockets fans, whose team came the closest to beating the Warriors, complain daily about this day in and day out.

If anything this just proves that Lebron actually isn't controlling the shadowy cabal of NBA overseers behind the scenes that determine the results of seasons and playoffs before they happen.

NeutralObserver wrote:If there's ANYONE that should be complaining about the Warriors dominance, it should be Rockets or the Spurs...Western Conference teams that were DIRECTLY effected by the Warrior's dominance. Rockets literally had the win in the palm of their hands. But its not. It's Lebron fans crying and whining instead.

Its a true testament to how numb fans of Western Conference teams are to competition. It's second nature to us and just a part of the journey.
And the players STILL stay in the conference without jumping ship and playing in the JV conference.

Competition matters...and thats why you barely hear Rockets fans, whose team came the closest to beating the Warriors, complain daily about this day in and day out.

With the exception of Kawhi players don't just choose where they want to play each year. The stars in the western conference got drafted in the West and then stayed there because there was a massive financial incentive for them to remain with the same team. If you think that guys are choosing to stay in the west because of the "competition" and not the dollars then you're insane.

Pg81 wrote:

HEKTOR wrote:Lebron isn't on MJ's level, enough of this nonsense. No shame in being 2nd best to the GOAT.

Except MJ isn't the "GOAT".

If Pg81 on RealGM says so

He maybe the best player of all time. But being the GOAT puts a high value on championships

I dislike LeBron and I hate the way that he built the Heatles but this is a pretty poor argument. Basketball is a team game. No single player "allows" another player to win. It's just one team beating another. Personally, seeing LeBron's team lose always made me happy so I hope that it happens some more in the future

NeutralObserver wrote:If there's ANYONE that should be complaining about the Warriors dominance, it should be Rockets or the Spurs...Western Conference teams that were DIRECTLY effected by the Warrior's dominance. Rockets literally had the win in the palm of their hands. But its not. It's Lebron fans crying and whining instead.

Its a true testament to how numb fans of Western Conference teams are to competition. It's second nature to us and just a part of the journey.
And the players STILL stay in the conference without jumping ship and playing in the JV conference.

Competition matters...and thats why you barely hear Rockets fans, whose team came the closest to beating the Warriors, complain daily about this day in and day out.

Oh, please. Western Conference fans complain just as much as Eastern Conference fans. No one is above complaining.

76ciology wrote:He maybe the best player of all time. But being the GOAT puts a high value on championships

Now, that's an opinion worthy of respect.
For me personally, Bird was the best and most complete player i've seen. Not the GOAT but maybe the best.
That's why i can get what you're saying agree or not.

The mods should really start banning posters who bump the dumbest threads.

KGtabake wrote:

76ciology wrote:He maybe the best player of all time. But being the GOAT puts a high value on championships

Now, that's an opinion worthy of respect.
For me personally, Bird was the best and most complete player i've seen. Not the GOAT but maybe the best.
That's why i can get what you're saying agree or not.

Most complete is bron.

At his peak he can play every position at an elite level. This ranges from being a PG to a center.

The thing that stopped Bron from being the GOAT was his circumstance.

First, he was drafted and obligated to win for Cleveland. Nobody wants to go to Cleveland, and you can ask for Joakhim Noah’s opinion about this.

Second, Dirk going HAM, Spurs shooting at an alltime great level in 2014, 73 team Warriors and Warriors + KD happened. With all due respect, MJ faced weak competition overall and specially the teams he faced in the finals won’t even be a top 5 team in today’s league. Specially if you consider a healthy Warriors squad.

Most evident of how unlucky he was is this year’s season stopping when his team was the favorite to win it all.

But again, being a GOAT puts a high value on championship and winning one requires a big factor in luck.

I mean.. just watch how the Raps won last season when every top player from the Warriors pretty much went down.

Overall, i think fans care about this goat issue more than the players that are involved in the debate.

While the players who were asked to give opinion about who’s the GOAT tries to spin it to make their legacy sound nice.

Like how Chauncey tried to show off his championship by emphasizing that LeBron let them won a championship at his watch.

While Pierce tries to make the list of his top 5 NBA players a Lakers vs Celtics rivalry.

Embiid says shouldnt it be Wilt, when wilt plays the same position as him.

IfJeremy Lin is asked who should be in his top 5 best players, it’s likely he’ll dropped Yao’s name or Kawhi to emphasize that he won a ring with the raps.

KGtabake wrote:

Pg81 wrote:

HEKTOR wrote:Lebron isn't on MJ's level, enough of this nonsense. No shame in being 2nd best to the GOAT.

Except MJ isn't the "GOAT".

If Pg81 on RealGM says so

Yeah I am for sure the only one who said it.
but I guess because a large portion of a certain demographic says something that makes it automatically the truth, right?

76ciology wrote:

KGtabake wrote:

76ciology wrote:He maybe the best player of all time. But being the GOAT puts a high value on championships

Now, that's an opinion worthy of respect.
For me personally, Bird was the best and most complete player i've seen. Not the GOAT but maybe the best.
That's why i can get what you're saying agree or not.

Most complete is bron.

At his peak he can play every position at an elite level. This ranges from being a PG to a center.

The thing that stopped Bron from being the GOAT was his circumstance.

First, he was drafted and obligated to win for Cleveland. Nobody wants to go to Cleveland, and you can ask for Joakhim Noah’s opinion about this.

Second, Dirk going HAM, Spurs shooting at an alltime great level in 2014, 73 team Warriors and Warriors + KD happened. With all due respect, MJ faced weak competition overall and specially the teams he faced in the finals won’t even be a top 5 team in today’s league. Specially if you consider a healthy Warriors squad.

Most evident of how unlucky he was is this year’s season stopping when his team was the favorite to win it all.

But again, being a GOAT puts a high value on championship and winning one requires a big factor in luck.

I mean.. just watch how the Raps won last season when every top player from the Warriors pretty much went down.

To me these are excuses. We can make hundreds of them for any player.
MJ played for Chicago. Who wanted to play for Chicago back then? Where were the Bulls at the time?
Dirk going crazy is one thing. LeBron underperforming is another thing.
Spurs should have won in 2013 as well. Ray Allen had a different opinion. Not LeBron.

The competition MJ faced in the East was much stronger than LeBron's and that is a fact.
The Pacers, the Heat, the Cavaliers, the Magic, the Knicks, the Hawks, the Pistons, the Celtics. Hornets had their best team ever.
You have to play 3 rounds before making it to the Finals.

Jazz in today's league would have been among the top seeds. Barkley's Suns and Drexler's Blazers as well.
Magic's Lakers? The Sonics? Please.
Not liking something is one thing. Trying to discredit it is another.

And no, the Lakers were not the clear favorite to win it all this year.
If LeBron says he's unlucky, then what Giannis should say? The Bucks?
One of the most dominant individual seasons in history and a certain 2nd consecutive MVP season(possibly DPOY as well).
The Clippers? The reigning Finals MVP and most complete player in the league plays in LA but it's not LeBron anymore.
It's Kawhi.

Being the GOAT is not about championships only.
It's a combo.
MJ has 11 MVPs(RS + Finals). LeBron has 7.
MJ has a DPOY. LeBron has none.
MJ has made 9 all defense teams. LeBron has made 5.
MJ at 18 without even being in the NBA yet, lead USA to a gold medal in the Olympics. LeBron at 18 end up 3rd in the Olympics as a bench guy.

And Bird at his peak won 3 consecutive MVPs. Complete on both ends. One of the brightest minds ever.

LeBron is NOT the GOAT so premise is wrong already.

Pg81 wrote:

KGtabake wrote:

Pg81 wrote:
Except MJ isn't the "GOAT".

If Pg81 on RealGM says so

Yeah I am for sure the only one who said it.
but I guess because a large portion of a certain demographic says something that makes it automatically the truth, right?

No you are not the only one saying it.
You are among the ones who think they are funny trying in every MJ related thread to discredit someone who is considered one of the greatest sports figures in history and you end up getting ridiculed. Now that's funny

76ciology wrote:

KGtabake wrote:

76ciology wrote:He maybe the best player of all time. But being the GOAT puts a high value on championships

Now, that's an opinion worthy of respect.
For me personally, Bird was the best and most complete player i've seen. Not the GOAT but maybe the best.
That's why i can get what you're saying agree or not.

Most complete is bron.

At his peak he can play every position at an elite level. This ranges from being a PG to a center.

The thing that stopped Bron from being the GOAT was his circumstance.

First, he was drafted and obligated to win for Cleveland. Nobody wants to go to Cleveland, and you can ask for Joakhim Noah’s opinion about this.

Second, Dirk going HAM, Spurs shooting at an alltime great level in 2014, 73 team Warriors and Warriors + KD happened. With all due respect, MJ faced weak competition overall and specially the teams he faced in the finals won’t even be a top 5 team in today’s league. Specially if you consider a healthy Warriors squad.

Most evident of how unlucky he was is this year’s season stopping when his team was the favorite to win it all.

But again, being a GOAT puts a high value on championship and winning one requires a big factor in luck.

I mean.. just watch how the Raps won last season when every top player from the Warriors pretty much went down.

Can we really blame it on bad luck for the most part though? I mean, in the history of the game, has there ever been any player that has controlled his destiny more than Lebron? He has chosen his teams, his teammates, his coaches, and so much beyond that. Did he think about fit when he got Dwade and Bosh together and they were declaring themselves as a dynasty? Did he think about how durable Kyrie would be and how Love would be as a lower usage player? Did he ever think that maybe he would evolve more as a team player if he had a coach that challenged him more and that he could defer to?

Jordan, Dirk, Curry, the Spurs all won with teams that were built over time, organically, without a roster full of headline names at the beginning. Lebron never committed to that sort of build, he just wanted plug and play, and plug and play teams never become dynasties, because the teams never have the time to build that chemistry and familiarity and trust. No one though Klay and Draymond would be foundations of a dynasty, but they became that because along with Steph, they knew exactly where and what they would be doing on the court at all times. Same with Timmy, Parker and Manu.

People could say its about the era of player movement and its not his fault, and I get that. But look at the teams with sustained success in the recent eras, the Lakers, the Spurs, the Warriors. Those were teams that stayed together for the most part, and achieved titles when they did. Lebron, for very understandable personal goals and reasons, never committed in such a way. And that could have been the difference between 3 titles total, and multiple 3peats. But that still wasnt bad luck, that was his decision.

Who were the young stars players who threatened Jordan in the 90s?

I mean the 90s were so less talented that a worst Utah Jazz with Stockton and Malone old af were looking like they were better than 8-10 years earlier.

nfmos wrote:Jordan, Dirk, Curry, the Spurs all won with teams that were built over time, organically, without a roster full of headline names at the beginning. Lebron never committed to that sort of build, he just wanted plug and play, and plug and play teams never become dynasties, because the teams never have the time to build that chemistry and familiarity and trust. No one though Klay and Draymond would be foundations of a dynasty, but they became that because along with Steph, they knew exactly where and what they would be doing on the court at all times. Same with Timmy, Parker and Manu.

People could say its about the era of player movement and its not his fault, and I get that. But look at the teams with sustained success in the recent eras, the Lakers, the Spurs, the Warriors. Those were teams that stayed together for the most part, and achieved titles when they did. Lebron, for very understandable personal goals and reasons, never committed in such a way. And that could have been the difference between 3 titles total, and multiple 3peats. But that still wasnt bad luck, that was his decision.

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Fn Kevon Looney still has a whole decade to win another and catch Queen Bron, jeesh. Top 50 play all time maybe but Paul Pierce was onto something.