The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#201 » by Official » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:21 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Official wrote:Patrick Beverly is one of the most overrated players in the league. He averaged 7.6ppg/3.8appg/ 5rpg and is making 12 million per year now. And he has never had a great defensive DBPM. In no world is that a starting point guard caliber player. I would give him one thing - he has brilliantly made himself relevant in circles and made bank this summer from the following:

Injured Westbrook
Pushed Lonzo
Fouled the hell out of Lebron and KD until they got annoyed and destroyed him.

Think of it like this - Freaking Rondo averages the below and everyone thinks he is washed up:

9.2ppg, 8apg, and 5.3rpg and only makes 2.6 million.


I wouldn't go that far. He's not a top tier PG by any means, but he is a great fit with this roster in particular, and is better than you're giving him credit for. He's got a +8 net rating, is a positive in almost every lineup. He's also #11 among PG's in the NBA in RPM at 2.71 ahead of guys like Westbrook, Fox, Russell, Rubio, Murray, Hill. He's 6th in DRPM among PG's trailing only CP3, Hill, Lowry, Joseph and Derrick White. He's a specialist. He's basically a guy who's going to make decently smart reads, hit open 3's and get after it on D. He's also really good at not turning the ball over, so he's not killing you there. Based on the contracts we've seen recently he's still a relative bargain. I wouldn't go with counting stats for Rondo who hemorrhages teams on both ends in terms of metrics.


He is a point guard who cant score or pass and is merely good at threes but is more of the completely wide open type. He isn't letting it fly near a defender.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#202 » by Uncle Dave » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:50 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
KingFox wrote:The lakers defense will be better?! Lmao


Look at the numbers.

I'm sure even Clipsfan will admit this.

Clippers will be amazing offensively but people are.overratingntheir defense majorly.
Yea, we agree here. They won't be bad on D but their offense will be the stronger suit and people are overrating their D like it's the classic Bulls or Pistons. I predict #1 offense and maybe 10th best D or so.


Nuggets, Rockets, Portland, Milwaukee and even Lakers (Warriors and Nets when healthy) would have something to say about that. Although, I don't think there will be 9 better teams on defence than the Clippers.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#203 » by Liminy » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:10 pm

7footMONSTER wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do NBA execs get these jobs?

The fit on the Lakers is better than the Clippers but the Clippers have more talent from 1 to 8. The Lakers defense will be better, the Clippers offense will be better. I would say Clippers are slight favorites because they are younger.


How is the fit better on the Lakers when their 3 best players play the same position?


Did you watch LeBron on Cleveland? He is a point guard on offense. PG and Kawai also play the same position.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#204 » by KingFox » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:17 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
KingFox wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do NBA execs get these jobs?

The fit on the Lakers is better than the Clippers but the Clippers have more talent from 1 to 8. The Lakers defense will be better, the Clippers offense will be better. I would say Clippers are slight favorites because they are younger.

The lakers defense will be better?! Lmao


Look at the numbers.

I'm sure even Clipsfan will admit this.

Clippers will be amazing offensively but people are overrating their defense majorly.

the lakers perimeter defense will not be very good IMO

i can see their interior D being pretty good
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#205 » by ClipsFanSince98 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:22 pm

Official wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Official wrote:Patrick Beverly is one of the most overrated players in the league. He averaged 7.6ppg/3.8appg/ 5rpg and is making 12 million per year now. And he has never had a great defensive DBPM. In no world is that a starting point guard caliber player. I would give him one thing - he has brilliantly made himself relevant in circles and made bank this summer from the following:

Injured Westbrook
Pushed Lonzo
Fouled the hell out of Lebron and KD until they got annoyed and destroyed him.

Think of it like this - Freaking Rondo averages the below and everyone thinks he is washed up:

9.2ppg, 8apg, and 5.3rpg and only makes 2.6 million.


I wouldn't go that far. He's not a top tier PG by any means, but he is a great fit with this roster in particular, and is better than you're giving him credit for. He's got a +8 net rating, is a positive in almost every lineup. He's also #11 among PG's in the NBA in RPM at 2.71 ahead of guys like Westbrook, Fox, Russell, Rubio, Murray, Hill. He's 6th in DRPM among PG's trailing only CP3, Hill, Lowry, Joseph and Derrick White. He's a specialist. He's basically a guy who's going to make decently smart reads, hit open 3's and get after it on D. He's also really good at not turning the ball over, so he's not killing you there. Based on the contracts we've seen recently he's still a relative bargain. I wouldn't go with counting stats for Rondo who hemorrhages teams on both ends in terms of metrics.


He is a point guard who cant score or pass and is merely good at threes but is more of the completely wide open type. He isn't letting it fly near a defender.


He's an elite rebounder for his position and steals O rebounds (averaged 8 rpg in the playoffs), has a 3 to 1 A/TO ratio. He doesn't force any shots, which is why most of it is spot up, open shots. I'm not sure why that's a negative. I wouldn't say he "can't score", so much as I'd say he's not a great scorer and is treated as more of a 5th option type on offense. He has had games where he catches fire from deep and gets some layups mixed in. Again, he's far from a star player but he's a positive on both ends. That's all you can expect from your 6th best player.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#206 » by LKN » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:27 pm

Liminy wrote:
7footMONSTER wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do NBA execs get these jobs?

The fit on the Lakers is better than the Clippers but the Clippers have more talent from 1 to 8. The Lakers defense will be better, the Clippers offense will be better. I would say Clippers are slight favorites because they are younger.


How is the fit better on the Lakers when their 3 best players play the same position?


Did you watch LeBron on Cleveland? He is a point guard on offense. PG and Kawai also play the same position.


I don't get the bolded... it's very common to play multiple wings in the NBA. Heck, it's been going on since the 90s
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#207 » by TheNewEra » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:42 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
TheNewEra wrote:
Official wrote:Patrick Beverly is one of the most overrated players in the league. He averaged 7.6ppg/3.8appg/ 5rpg and is making 12 million per year now. And he has never had a great defensive DBPM. In no world is that a starting point guard caliber player. I would give him one thing - he has brilliantly made himself relevant in circles and made bank this summer from the following:

Injured Westbrook
Pushed Lonzo
Fouled the hell out of Lebron and KD until they got annoyed and destroyed him.

Think of it like this - Freaking Rondo averages the below and everyone thinks he is washed up:

9.2ppg, 8apg, and 5.3rpg and only makes 2.6 million.


Beverly is a bit overrated as a player but his fire and leadership goes a long way. The culture begins with Beverly and has been amazing in taking young guys under his wing and connecting with vets. He’s not afraid of the dirty work and can rally his team and unlike the Lob City teams he’s persistent about staying on a teams throat.

Even with Kawhi and PG on the team front office still has him showcased as a leader. He was a big influence on SGA last year and seems he’s forming a bond with Zubac and they are getting closer and pushing Zubac to have more of a push back edge.


For a contender he’s going to play the Iggy-PJ Tucker-Lowry(2019) and etc type super glue guy


Lowry is one of the best floor generals, outside shooters, and facilitators in the NBA that can put up 20 a night if needed...not a great comparison.



I’ll give him floor general with is facilitators imo but we just need him to be decent in the other aspects. Beverly being a pest and drawing fouls and hustling hard. If we need Beverly to drop 20 to win something went wrong on the team. A big scoring role won’t be needed
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#208 » by Jadoogar » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:43 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:Why wouldn't you think that? Lets say the top 2 are a wash (essentially 2 top 10 players on both sides), 3-12 is such a massive difference in favour of the Clippers.

Harrell, Beverley, Lou Will, Zubac, harkless
vs
Kuzma, Danny green, rondo (?), KCP, Bradley (?)


-Beverley is a good defender but bad on offense. He averages 9 points for his career (7.6 last year) on 41% shooting.
-Lou Will is going to be 33 going on his 15th season. Good offensive punch but not a great player. Liability on defense.
-Zubac was considered garbage on the Lakers. He's supposed to be good now? He should be a backup center.
-Harkless is a mediocre role player.
-Harrell is the only guy with potential to be an above average/great player out of this whole group.

What are we supposed to be impressed by?

The Lakers supporting cast is not great either but you can throw in Caruso, McGee and Howard. Pretty equal overall IMO.

Neither team has a clear 3rd star. Kuzma could emerge as 3rd star and Harrell could emerge as a 3rd star.


how are you using "role player" as an insult? each team has two stars, not run of the mill stars either, actual super stars. The rest of the team should be solid role players. Beverely, Lou, Harrell, Harkless all know how to play their roles and do it very well.

Rondo and Howard aren't good anymore. Was KCP ever good? Kuzma is ok but mad overrated.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#209 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:55 pm

Metallikid wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do NBA execs get these jobs?

The fit on the Lakers is better than the Clippers but the Clippers have more talent from 1 to 8. The Lakers defense will be better, the Clippers offense will be better. I would say Clippers are slight favorites because they are younger.


Really? I'm pretty sure like 90% of people think it's going to be the opposite with the Clippers having the better defense by far, but LeBron's Lakers will be fantastic offensively.


I don't know where that is coming from. What are people basing that on?
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#210 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Uncle Dave wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Look at the numbers.

I'm sure even Clipsfan will admit this.

Clippers will be amazing offensively but people are.overratingntheir defense majorly.
Yea, we agree here. They won't be bad on D but their offense will be the stronger suit and people are overrating their D like it's the classic Bulls or Pistons. I predict #1 offense and maybe 10th best D or so.


Nuggets, Rockets, Portland, Milwaukee and even Lakers (Warriors and Nets when healthy) would have something to say about that. Although, I don't think there will be 9 better teams on defence than the Clippers.


Clippers offense is going to be number 1, the only way they aren't is injury or because the lack of a floor general hurts them (but that shouldn't happen in the modern game).
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#211 » by ClipsFanSince98 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:02 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
Uncle Dave wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Yea, we agree here. They won't be bad on D but their offense will be the stronger suit and people are overrating their D like it's the classic Bulls or Pistons. I predict #1 offense and maybe 10th best D or so.


Nuggets, Rockets, Portland, Milwaukee and even Lakers (Warriors and Nets when healthy) would have something to say about that. Although, I don't think there will be 9 better teams on defence than the Clippers.


Clippers offense is going to be number 1, the only way they aren't is injury or because the lack of a floor general hurts them (but that shouldn't happen in the modern game).


Yep. Some numbers from last year for point of reference.

#6 ranked halfcourt offense, #10 offense overall (with no superstars), 4th ranked offense+5th ranked defense post all star break after adding Zubac+Shamet to starting 5, subtracting Bradley+Harris+Gortat.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#212 » by Uncle Dave » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:06 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Uncle Dave wrote:
Nuggets, Rockets, Portland, Milwaukee and even Lakers (Warriors and Nets when healthy) would have something to say about that. Although, I don't think there will be 9 better teams on defence than the Clippers.


Clippers offense is going to be number 1, the only way they aren't is injury or because the lack of a floor general hurts them (but that shouldn't happen in the modern game).


Yep. Some numbers from last year for point of reference.

#6 ranked halfcourt offense, #10 offense overall (with no superstars), 4th ranked offense+5th ranked defense post all star break after adding Zubac+Shamet to starting 5, subtracting Bradley+Harris+Gortat.
This isn't last year. They're working in some major changes

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#213 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:10 pm

KingFox wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
KingFox wrote:The lakers defense will be better?! Lmao


Look at the numbers.

I'm sure even Clipsfan will admit this.

Clippers will be amazing offensively but people are overrating their defense majorly.

the lakers perimeter defense will not be very good IMO

i can see their interior D being pretty good


The impact stats would suggest you are right at first glance. There is more nuance to this.

KCP and Bradley earned their defensive reputation on teams with shot blocking interior defense. The same can be said for Kawhi and PG13. Kawhi is a great example, look at his DRPM drop through the floor when Duncan reduced minutes and retire. Look at how PG13's DRPM went up when Noel joined OKC and Grant became a starter.

Defense is a team game but KCP, Bradley, Kawhi, PG-13 take a lot of attention. They get on a defensive player and rattle them and ultimately get them to turn it over. Its aggressive defence and your eye can see direct cause and effect. But that type of defense leaves the back of you vulnerable to cuts and leaves you vulnerable to blow-bys if you go for a steal and miss. Both of these things are counteracted by great interior defenders that shot block. If you don't have that then the aggressive defense is average or even below average in terms of impact.

This probably deserves an article written about it, to me this is one of the most important misjudgements people make about perimeter defenders.

How is it relevant? Well the great interior defense on the Lakers will make KCP and bradley look like great impact defenders again. Commentators will talk about how they turned back the clock and brought it together, but I'll know that this is the reason. Conversely the defensive impact of Kawhi and PG13 will be affected negatively by the lack of interior defense. Clippers may need to end up playing Zubac more than Harrell at C just to mitigate that.

Anyway, you will see if I'm right or wrong pretty soon.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#214 » by TheNewEra » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:16 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do NBA execs get these jobs?

The fit on the Lakers is better than the Clippers but the Clippers have more talent from 1 to 8. The Lakers defense will be better, the Clippers offense will be better. I would say Clippers are slight favorites because they are younger.


Really? I'm pretty sure like 90% of people think it's going to be the opposite with the Clippers having the better defense by far, but LeBron's Lakers will be fantastic offensively.


I don't know where that is coming from. What are people basing that on?


Most of the players on the team are defense first hustle guys that can shoot or score. Besides Kawhi and PG if had to put the rest of the guys into one category

Defenders
Green
Harkless
Beverly
McGruder
Zubac
Mann

Scorers or shooters
Lou
Harrell
Shamet
Robinson
Kabengele

Good thing is all of the guys on the team are two way players. Shamet and Robinson showed growth and Lou can get some steals if needed. Robinson and Kabengele unlikely to play at all this season
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#215 » by ClipsFanSince98 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:23 pm

I think it's safe to say Lakers and Clippers fans can't wait the next 27 days for the season opener. A lot of things will be answered in terms of how each team plans to play. Obviously 1 game into the season you can really only learn so much, but it will be a preview of what the gameplan is and possibly weaknesses.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#216 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:25 pm

TheNewEra wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
Really? I'm pretty sure like 90% of people think it's going to be the opposite with the Clippers having the better defense by far, but LeBron's Lakers will be fantastic offensively.


I don't know where that is coming from. What are people basing that on?


Most of the players on the team are defense first hustle guys that can shoot or score. Besides Kawhi and PG if had to put the rest of the guys into one category

Defenders
Green
Harkless
Beverly
McGruder
Zubac
Mann

Scorers or shooters
Lou
Harrell
Shamet
Robinson
Kabengele

Good thing is all of the guys on the team are two way players. Shamet and Robinson showed growth and Lou can get some steals if needed. Robinson and Kabengele unlikely to play at all this season


Yeah there perimeter defense will be great. I prefaced in the original post that we are talking regular season. I'm fully prepared for clippers to get much better defensively when guy like Kawhi and PG13 engage 100%.

Still defense really depends upon interior defense and shot blocking threats. Clippers would have to play Zubac more minutes than Harrell to be a strong defensive team. Who is going to be the shot blocks at PF and C?
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#217 » by SK21209 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:36 pm

One big difference is that the Clippers' role guys seem to be trending up while the Lakers' aren't. Harrell, Shamet, and Zubac are young guys who have showed promise and Lou, Green, and Beverly all had arguably the best season of their career or are in the midst of the best stretch of their career.

In contrast, guys like Rondo, Howard, Bradley, and Dudley are clearly at the end of their NBA careers and really have not been good the last couple of seasons (Howard was decent two years ago but missed pretty much all of 18-19). McGee is decent but has been trending down. KCP is decent. Kuzma is young but had a worse 2nd season than his 1st. Green is being penciled in as a solid 3+D guy but I don't think that's a given. Last year was a contract year for him and his previous two seasons in SA weren't great since he struggled with the Spurs' move toward more an iso-based offense, which is much more similar to how the Lakers offense will probably look next year than the Raptors' last year.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#218 » by TheNewEra » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:40 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
TheNewEra wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
I don't know where that is coming from. What are people basing that on?


Most of the players on the team are defense first hustle guys that can shoot or score. Besides Kawhi and PG if had to put the rest of the guys into one category

Defenders
Green
Harkless
Beverly
McGruder
Zubac
Mann

Scorers or shooters
Lou
Harrell
Shamet
Robinson
Kabengele

Good thing is all of the guys on the team are two way players. Shamet and Robinson showed growth and Lou can get some steals if needed. Robinson and Kabengele unlikely to play at all this season


Yeah there perimeter defense will be great. I prefaced in the original post that we are talking regular season. I'm fully prepared for clippers to get much better defensively when guy like Kawhi and PG13 engage 100%.

Still defense really depends upon interior defense and shot blocking threats. Clippers would have to play Zubac more minutes than Harrell to be a strong defensive team. Who is going to be the shot blocks at PF and C?


Well Doc liked what he saw from JaMychal on both sides and Harrell is a capable shot blocker. Noah is also doing workouts and combinations of PG and Kawhi at the 4. It’s really going to be based on matchups if everyone is healthy
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#219 » by NO-KG-AI » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:40 pm

hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Bigfactsstackz wrote:
Bro AD is a big he frequently bangs with guys bigger then Kawhi I’m not sure if your being serious :crazy:


Depends. Are you parking his wheel chair near the basket for his frequent locker room trips so he can come back out in the 2nd half?


Yeah I don’t think either team can exactly talk much about injury risk. Kawhi is a year removed from playing 6 games and officially changed his middle name to “load management”. While PG had surgery on BOTH of his shoulders. LeBron is 72 years old. Hell AD may be the least injury risk of them all. This category is a wash.


AD has as many regular season games played as Kawhi, and more minutes, despite being drafted a year later.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#220 » by NZB2323 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:41 pm

Paul George had shoulder surgery and Kawhi looked like he was limping at the championship parade. Both teams have question marks.

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