The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#221 » by lakerz12 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:47 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:Why wouldn't you think that? Lets say the top 2 are a wash (essentially 2 top 10 players on both sides), 3-12 is such a massive difference in favour of the Clippers.

Harrell, Beverley, Lou Will, Zubac, harkless
vs
Kuzma, Danny green, rondo (?), KCP, Bradley (?)


-Beverley is a good defender but bad on offense. He averages 9 points for his career (7.6 last year) on 41% shooting.
-Lou Will is going to be 33 going on his 15th season. Good offensive punch but not a great player. Liability on defense.
-Zubac was considered garbage on the Lakers. He's supposed to be good now? He should be a backup center.
-Harkless is a mediocre role player.
-Harrell is the only guy with potential to be an above average/great player out of this whole group.

What are we supposed to be impressed by?

The Lakers supporting cast is not great either but you can throw in Caruso, McGee and Howard. Pretty equal overall IMO.

Neither team has a clear 3rd star. Kuzma could emerge as 3rd star and Harrell could emerge as a 3rd star.


how are you using "role player" as an insult? each team has two stars, not run of the mill stars either, actual super stars. The rest of the team should be solid role players. Beverely, Lou, Harrell, Harkless all know how to play their roles and do it very well.

Rondo and Howard aren't good anymore. Was KCP ever good? Kuzma is ok but mad overrated.


? I did not use "role player" as an insult. What are you talking about?

I said "Harkless is a mediocre role player". Some role players are better than others. He is a mediocre one in my opinion.

I was responding to someone who claimed that the Clippers supporting cast is far better than the Lakers. So I am giving a brief critique of each player that was listed and asking what it is about these guys that is so much better than the Laker cast.

He said "such a massive difference in favour of the Clippers." Where is the "massive difference" is what I'm asking.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#222 » by zimpy27 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:26 am

TheNewEra wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
TheNewEra wrote:
Most of the players on the team are defense first hustle guys that can shoot or score. Besides Kawhi and PG if had to put the rest of the guys into one category

Defenders
Green
Harkless
Beverly
McGruder
Zubac
Mann

Scorers or shooters
Lou
Harrell
Shamet
Robinson
Kabengele

Good thing is all of the guys on the team are two way players. Shamet and Robinson showed growth and Lou can get some steals if needed. Robinson and Kabengele unlikely to play at all this season


Yeah there perimeter defense will be great. I prefaced in the original post that we are talking regular season. I'm fully prepared for clippers to get much better defensively when guy like Kawhi and PG13 engage 100%.

Still defense really depends upon interior defense and shot blocking threats. Clippers would have to play Zubac more minutes than Harrell to be a strong defensive team. Who is going to be the shot blocks at PF and C?


Well Doc liked what he saw from JaMychal on both sides and Harrell is a capable shot blocker. Noah is also doing workouts and combinations of PG and Kawhi at the 4. It’s really going to be based on matchups if everyone is healthy

Noah is a potentially big addition if he still has the ability. JaMychal was also an underrated re-signing.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#223 » by SF_Warriors » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:46 am

Official wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Official wrote:Patrick Beverly is one of the most overrated players in the league. He averaged 7.6ppg/3.8appg/ 5rpg and is making 12 million per year now. And he has never had a great defensive DBPM. In no world is that a starting point guard caliber player. I would give him one thing - he has brilliantly made himself relevant in circles and made bank this summer from the following:

Injured Westbrook
Pushed Lonzo
Fouled the hell out of Lebron and KD until they got annoyed and destroyed him.

Think of it like this - Freaking Rondo averages the below and everyone thinks he is washed up:

9.2ppg, 8apg, and 5.3rpg and only makes 2.6 million.


I wouldn't go that far. He's not a top tier PG by any means, but he is a great fit with this roster in particular, and is better than you're giving him credit for. He's got a +8 net rating, is a positive in almost every lineup. He's also #11 among PG's in the NBA in RPM at 2.71 ahead of guys like Westbrook, Fox, Russell, Rubio, Murray, Hill. He's 6th in DRPM among PG's trailing only CP3, Hill, Lowry, Joseph and Derrick White. He's a specialist. He's basically a guy who's going to make decently smart reads, hit open 3's and get after it on D. He's also really good at not turning the ball over, so he's not killing you there. Based on the contracts we've seen recently he's still a relative bargain. I wouldn't go with counting stats for Rondo who hemorrhages teams on both ends in terms of metrics.


He is a point guard who cant score or pass and is merely good at threes but is more of the completely wide open type. He isn't letting it fly near a defender.


I do agree bev has been overrated. I have seen when he was younger and fans of the team he was on would give him tons of credit as a starter when he is basically a mediocre one at best.

With that said, the clips need a 3&D guy which is exactly what pat bev is. He shoots about 39% from three and as a small guard has always had a positive DBPM which is tough to achieve for a guy that size.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#224 » by Official » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:20 am

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
He's an elite rebounder for his position and steals O rebounds (averaged 8 rpg in the playoffs), has a 3 to 1 A/TO ratio. He doesn't force any shots, which is why most of it is spot up, open shots. I'm not sure why that's a negative. I wouldn't say he "can't score", so much as I'd say he's not a great scorer and is treated as more of a 5th option type on offense. He has had games where he catches fire from deep and gets some layups mixed in. Again, he's far from a star player but he's a positive on both ends. That's all you can expect from your 6th best player.


Being an elite rebounder at PG is a relatively low value proposition. And no he cant score or create. He has pretty much has the lowest USG rate of any point guard in the NBA and that is for good reason. He essentially stands in the corner and shoots a low volume of threes. The guy only scored over 20 points in a game 1 TIME last year. Again 1 TIME - you are not a good scorer - end of discussion.

They also have ZUBAC in the starting lineup. ZUBAC who couldn't even start over McGee on the Lakers. Those that go around acting like ZUBAC showed promise would be no different than saying Alex Caruso showed promise. Hell he had more 20 point games than Patrick Beverly last year.

My whole point in this is I just don't see this great depth on the Clippers. I see the media and fan base overrating their entire team.

Lou Williams - great six man....Kuzma inefficient scorer. Like WTH - Lou Williams is just as inefficient.

Montrezl Harrell - 16ppg/6rg - great six man.....Dwight Howard last full season - 16.6 and 12rpg - team killer and sucks.

It is just comical at this point.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#225 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:36 am

Depth is a real issue for the Lakers as it is for GSW. In a league where guys are playing fewer and fewer min (if not games) the Lakers are going to need an aging superstar and a oft brittle front court player to carry a LOT of weight during the RS. Meanwhile, GSW only really have 3-4 surefire NBA players and Curry is going to have to hold up to a burden that he probably won't be able to handle. Dame likewise. People don't get that 5 of the top 7 min getters for Port aren't there any more. If Dame buckles they end up as a 12 seed.

The west is going to be a war of attrition. Injuries will occur and they will shape the standings.

LAC are no surefire winners here either. PG had surgery on BOTH shoulders. That's no small thing. He will probably miss 2 mos. And that's just to start. Kawhi started "load management" and with his degenerative condition (I'm confident Spurs docs were right about that) isn't going to be carrying RS load. The notion that they joined a 48 win team is disingenuous at best. The two best players on that team were Gallo and Tobias. They gone. Sure, Trezz, Lou Will, and Bev are nice but Lou and Trezz are problems defensively and Bev is the walking wounded. I think they will be fine but it's hard to start a season battered and expect to get better when you have a lot of guys who have historically missed a lot of time.

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#226 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:37 am

Yogatti wrote:
mademan wrote:...as does Paul George.


Paul George was going toe to toe against prime Lebron/Big 3 Heat in the ECFs. He's made the playoffs most of his career

AD's only been in the playoffs twice his entire career. One ended up getting swept. The other he only managed to win 1 playoff game before getting eliminated.
I mean they swept Port just 1 year ago.

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#227 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:42 am

Jcity08 wrote:
Forte IV wrote:Paul George last 5 playoff stats:

14: 22.6 ppg 7.6 rpg 3.8 apg
16: 27.3 ppg 7.6 rpg 4.3 apg
17: 28.0 ppg 8.8 rpg 7.3 apg
18: 24.7 ppg 6.0 rpg 2.7 apg
19: 28.6 ppg 8.6 rpg 3.6 apg

Oh but please keep telling me how Paul George doesn't show up.


Okay, I'll be honest in saying I did not know PG nearly averaged a triple double in the playoffs, thats impressive. Playing in OKC really took a hit on his assist production.
He shot 38.6% and got swept in the first round. Let's not pretend it was something special.

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#228 » by XxIronChainzxX » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:47 am

HurricaneKid wrote:
Jcity08 wrote:
Forte IV wrote:Paul George last 5 playoff stats:

14: 22.6 ppg 7.6 rpg 3.8 apg
16: 27.3 ppg 7.6 rpg 4.3 apg
17: 28.0 ppg 8.8 rpg 7.3 apg
18: 24.7 ppg 6.0 rpg 2.7 apg
19: 28.6 ppg 8.6 rpg 3.6 apg

Oh but please keep telling me how Paul George doesn't show up.


Okay, I'll be honest in saying I did not know PG nearly averaged a triple double in the playoffs, thats impressive. Playing in OKC really took a hit on his assist production.
He shot 38.6% and got swept in the first round. Let's not pretend it was something special.

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George is a great second option if healthy. I certainly wouldn't knock him anymore than AD on that front. If LeBron is healthy and able to recapture even his 2018 peak you'd have to favour AD / LeBron over Kawhi / PG, but I have a hard time looking at the rest of that LA roster and seeing a competent NBA roster.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#229 » by hoosierdaddy34 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:20 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:
hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Depends. Are you parking his wheel chair near the basket for his frequent locker room trips so he can come back out in the 2nd half?


Yeah I don’t think either team can exactly talk much about injury risk. Kawhi is a year removed from playing 6 games and officially changed his middle name to “load management”. While PG had surgery on BOTH of his shoulders. LeBron is 72 years old. Hell AD may be the least injury risk of them all. This category is a wash.


AD has as many regular season games played as Kawhi, and more minutes, despite being drafted a year later.


Great point. But people will say AD is the fragile one. Go figure.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#230 » by ClipsFanSince98 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:23 am

Official wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
He's an elite rebounder for his position and steals O rebounds (averaged 8 rpg in the playoffs), has a 3 to 1 A/TO ratio. He doesn't force any shots, which is why most of it is spot up, open shots. I'm not sure why that's a negative. I wouldn't say he "can't score", so much as I'd say he's not a great scorer and is treated as more of a 5th option type on offense. He has had games where he catches fire from deep and gets some layups mixed in. Again, he's far from a star player but he's a positive on both ends. That's all you can expect from your 6th best player.


Being an elite rebounder at PG is a relatively low value proposition. And no he cant score or create. He has pretty much has the lowest USG rate of any point guard in the NBA and that is for good reason. He essentially stands in the corner and shoots a low volume of threes. The guy only scored over 20 points in a game 1 TIME last year. Again 1 TIME - you are not a good scorer - end of discussion.

They also have ZUBAC in the starting lineup. ZUBAC who couldn't even start over McGee on the Lakers. Those that go around acting like ZUBAC showed promise would be no different than saying Alex Caruso showed promise. Hell he had more 20 point games than Patrick Beverly last year.

My whole point in this is I just don't see this great depth on the Clippers. I see the media and fan base overrating their entire team.

Lou Williams - great six man....Kuzma inefficient scorer. Like WTH - Lou Williams is just as inefficient.

Montrezl Harrell - 16ppg/6rg - great six man.....Dwight Howard last full season - 16.6 and 12rpg - team killer and sucks.

It is just comical at this point.


"I don't see" isn't an argument. The Clippers had the #1 bench efficiency rating in NBA history last year. Their bench scored nearly as much as their starting 5 at 54 ppg. Then now they may be adding Shamet to that bench+added Harkless. Whether you or I feel they are underrated or overrated is irrelevant. Bottom line is statistically they are a historic force with the bench. Lou+Harrell alone combined for more points than most team's entire benches. They ran the 2nd best PNR combo in the NBA and obliterated many teams starters.

Whatever we feel doesn't affect the data.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#231 » by ClipsFanSince98 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:24 am

HurricaneKid wrote:Depth is a real issue for the Lakers as it is for GSW. In a league where guys are playing fewer and fewer min (if not games) the Lakers are going to need an aging superstar and a oft brittle front court player to carry a LOT of weight during the RS. Meanwhile, GSW only really have 3-4 surefire NBA players and Curry is going to have to hold up to a burden that he probably won't be able to handle. Dame likewise. People don't get that 5 of the top 7 min getters for Port aren't there any more. If Dame buckles they end up as a 12 seed.

The west is going to be a war of attrition. Injuries will occur and they will shape the standings.

LAC are no surefire winners here either. PG had surgery on BOTH shoulders. That's no small thing. He will probably miss 2 mos. And that's just to start. Kawhi started "load management" and with his degenerative condition (I'm confident Spurs docs were right about that) isn't going to be carrying RS load. The notion that they joined a 48 win team is disingenuous at best. The two best players on that team were Gallo and Tobias. They gone. Sure, Trezz, Lou Will, and Bev are nice but Lou and Trezz are problems defensively and Bev is the walking wounded. I think they will be fine but it's hard to start a season battered and expect to get better when you have a lot of guys who have historically missed a lot of time.

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If I hear one more person say PG is out two months based on completely unfounded sources.. I'm going to lose my ****. PG is suiting up for the opener.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#232 » by DarthTeufel » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:00 am

The Lakers have a bigger chance at missing the playoffs than making the Finals.

this is going to be very lulzworthy and all the smart people know it. It's the former player types and low IQ fans that just see the names "LeBron" "Anthony Davis" and think they are an actual contender.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#233 » by Official » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:02 am

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
Official wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
He's an elite rebounder for his position and steals O rebounds (averaged 8 rpg in the playoffs), has a 3 to 1 A/TO ratio. He doesn't force any shots, which is why most of it is spot up, open shots. I'm not sure why that's a negative. I wouldn't say he "can't score", so much as I'd say he's not a great scorer and is treated as more of a 5th option type on offense. He has had games where he catches fire from deep and gets some layups mixed in. Again, he's far from a star player but he's a positive on both ends. That's all you can expect from your 6th best player.


Being an elite rebounder at PG is a relatively low value proposition. And no he cant score or create. He has pretty much has the lowest USG rate of any point guard in the NBA and that is for good reason. He essentially stands in the corner and shoots a low volume of threes. The guy only scored over 20 points in a game 1 TIME last year. Again 1 TIME - you are not a good scorer - end of discussion.

They also have ZUBAC in the starting lineup. ZUBAC who couldn't even start over McGee on the Lakers. Those that go around acting like ZUBAC showed promise would be no different than saying Alex Caruso showed promise. Hell he had more 20 point games than Patrick Beverly last year.

My whole point in this is I just don't see this great depth on the Clippers. I see the media and fan base overrating their entire team.

Lou Williams - great six man....Kuzma inefficient scorer. Like WTH - Lou Williams is just as inefficient.

Montrezl Harrell - 16ppg/6rg - great six man.....Dwight Howard last full season - 16.6 and 12rpg - team killer and sucks.

It is just comical at this point.


"I don't see" isn't an argument. The Clippers had the #1 bench efficiency rating in NBA history last year. Their bench scored nearly as much as their starting 5 at 54 ppg. Then now they may be adding Shamet to that bench+added Harkless. Whether you or I feel they are underrated or overrated is irrelevant. Bottom line is statistically they are a historic force with the bench. Lou+Harrell alone combined for more points than most team's entire benches. They ran the 2nd best PNR combo in the NBA and obliterated many teams starters.

Whatever we feel doesn't affect the data.


Of course they had strong bench scoring if two of your best scorers and higher minutes played last year come off the bench and the players they are replacing average around 10ppg or less. Hey I start PB who scores like 7ppg and his replacement is Lou William's who scores 20ppg - no duh you have strong bench scoring. That is just a rotation design that makes your bench scoring look better. No other team dones that so of course their bench scoring is high - like what the spurs did with Manu.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#234 » by Uncle Dave » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:21 am

DarthTeufel wrote:The Lakers have a bigger chance at missing the playoffs than making the Finals.

this is going to be very lulzworthy and all the smart people know it. It's the former player types and low IQ fans that just see the names "LeBron" "Anthony Davis" and think they are an actual contender.
Lol nice try at a strongman , and framing yourself as a smart man... Too bad for your dumbass comment tho

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#235 » by hoosierdaddy34 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:16 am

DarthTeufel wrote:The Lakers have a bigger chance at missing the playoffs than making the Finals.

this is going to be very lulzworthy and all the smart people know it. It's the former player types and low IQ fans that just see the names "LeBron" "Anthony Davis" and think they are an actual contender.


Who are these smart people? I haven’t seen one basketball person that is smart predict them to miss the playoffs. Name one that does.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#236 » by Not Suave Rico » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:05 am

Official wrote:
Of course they had strong bench scoring if two of your best scorers and higher minutes played last year come off the bench and the players they are replacing average around 10ppg or less. Hey I start PB who scores like 7ppg and his replacement is Lou William's who scores 20ppg - no duh you have strong bench scoring. That is just a rotation design that makes your bench scoring look better. No other team dones that so of course their bench scoring is high - like what the spurs did with Manu.

Part of the beauty of the Clippers rotation is the balance between the two units. The first unit features two of the best ISO players in the league. They are good for about 50-55 points a night combined.

Then the starters rest while Lou/Trez come in and just destroy the other teams second unit.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#237 » by Toby_White » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:51 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
-Beverley is a good defender but bad on offense. He averages 9 points for his career (7.6 last year) on 41% shooting.
-Lou Will is going to be 33 going on his 15th season. Good offensive punch but not a great player. Liability on defense.
-Zubac was considered garbage on the Lakers. He's supposed to be good now? He should be a backup center.
-Harkless is a mediocre role player.
-Harrell is the only guy with potential to be an above average/great player out of this whole group.

What are we supposed to be impressed by?

The Lakers supporting cast is not great either but you can throw in Caruso, McGee and Howard. Pretty equal overall IMO.

Neither team has a clear 3rd star. Kuzma could emerge as 3rd star and Harrell could emerge as a 3rd star.


how are you using "role player" as an insult? each team has two stars, not run of the mill stars either, actual super stars. The rest of the team should be solid role players. Beverely, Lou, Harrell, Harkless all know how to play their roles and do it very well.

Rondo and Howard aren't good anymore. Was KCP ever good? Kuzma is ok but mad overrated.


? I did not use "role player" as an insult. What are you talking about?

I said "Harkless is a mediocre role player". Some role players are better than others. He is a mediocre one in my opinion.

I was responding to someone who claimed that the Clippers supporting cast is far better than the Lakers. So I am giving a brief critique of each player that was listed and asking what it is about these guys that is so much better than the Laker cast.

He said "such a massive difference in favour of the Clippers." Where is the "massive difference" is what I'm asking.


People just buy in to these narratives. This whole "they took the Warriors to 6" thing is overblown imo. This is a good supporting Cast but also a very unexperienced one. The Lakers might be older and maybe Rondo and Howard are washed. But still, they have some Championship experience wich the Clippers dont.
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#238 » by FlatearthZorro » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 am

Well, it's obvious that the Clippers are favorites, they have 2 top 5 players, great guard defender to add to that. Match-up wise playing the Clippers would be LAL's nightmare, Green will be around what 34 years old by the time the playoffs come, Avery has looked really washed up. On the other side LBJ is gonna have to play against Kawhi and George and Davis is completely dominating, I don't see how LAL can beat LAC. Overall, anything's possible, and there are many other factors outside of talent, but I give the Clippers the advantage.

Kawhi really did a number on that LAL team, made them wait till literally every good FA had already signed, then signed with LAC and LAL were left with paying Danny Green(who imo was nothing to write home about in the playoffs) 15 mils a year?
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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#239 » by manlisten » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:37 pm

The thing about the Clippers' flaws is that they're fixable. Between Beverly, Lou, Zu and Harrell there's enough to trade for whatever hole they want to patch up. My biggest question mark with them is Lou Will. He suffers from what I call "Melo syndrome" in that his game is designed to be a #1 option but your team is never going anywhere if he's your #1 option and he doesn't provide any other value. So if he's on the court with PG and Kawhi, Lou is the guy getting targeted on defense and on offense he's relegated to a 3rd option at best which he has never excelled at in his entire basketball career. I can see him averaging less than 14 ppg on his typical efficiency and being an afterthought on that roster. I also don't see PG and Kawhi both playing 70+ games so that's really what will hold them back. I've never seen Harkless get so much praise until he signed there which is... interesting.

The Lakers ceiling depends on the health of Bradley and Howard. As long as they're good to go they'll make this a complete team with their contributions on both ends. I'd feel more comfortable with Igoudala and better replacements for Dudley and KCP but given that every team has holes I think you can live with them if you're unable to improve via trade. If we're comparing the depth of both teams I would take a healthy trio of Bradley, Kuzma and Howard over Beverly, Lou and Harrell pretty easily.

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Re: The Athletic: NBA execs around the league expect the gap between Clippers and Lakers to be significant 

Post#240 » by Alonzo_Morning » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:38 pm

Yogatti wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote: almost 30 with Draymond guarding him in 2 series.


2015: Warriors swept the Pelicans

2018: Warriors beat the Pelicans 4-1.

Yeah AD sure put up a fight in both of those series :lol:


AD put up some all time stats in the second series

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