How good was Giannis' MVP season?

Moderators: ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, zimpy27, bwgood77, BombsquadSammy, Yuri Vaultin, PockyCandy, Prez

Rate his regular season MVP

GOAT
8
6%
Top 10
16
11%
Top 20
48
34%
Top 30
26
18%
Outside top 30
44
31%
 
Total votes: 142

User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 61,659
And1: 67,918
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#21 » by Kabookalu » Wed Oct 9, 2019 9:43 am

He just had one of the most efficient volume scoring seasons of all tome, and was also second in voting for DPOY (I thought he should have won it). I think a lot of people are held back giving Giannis more props because of how sourly the ECF series went for him (even though this is a regular season award), and also the optics of his game, namely his lack of shooting. When a player has an easily identifiable flaw people tend be harsher on them. By all means Ben Simmons has been fantastic in his first two years in the league, yet he's the butt of many jokes because he can't shoot. It wasn't as bad but LeBron was also criticized for not being able to shoot early on in his career. He was even made fun of for his catapult like mechanics.

I'm pretty sure if Giannis traded some of his paint dominance for a more well rounded game and a nicer form he'd be more hailed.
Read on Twitter
User avatar
ken6199
Forum Mod - Rockets
Forum Mod - Rockets
Posts: 10,398
And1: 13,574
Joined: Jan 05, 2015
Location: St James' Park
   

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#22 » by ken6199 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 3:56 pm

Post #12. Top 20 replies of all time.
RealGM loves you, Melissa.
User avatar
Plain Old Josh
Freshman
Posts: 87
And1: 103
Joined: Oct 27, 2018

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#23 » by Plain Old Josh » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:00 pm

On a per-minute basis, it's a great MVP season. But I'd take a season like 2000 Shaq over 2019 Giannis. On a per-minute basis, Giannis might have been slightly better. But Shaq just played way more minutes per-game, appeared in 7 more games, and was worth 4.2 extra win shares.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 17,329
And1: 6,593
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: China cancels NBA stuff / Silver issues statement (pg1) /Ongoing discussion... 

Post#24 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:44 pm

sikma42 wrote:We disagree on the goal of the regular season. I have no agenda against Giannis, i really like him as a player and talent. But i believe the goal of the regualar season is to put yourself in the best possible position to win a chanpionship. Oftentimes that will coincide with the #1 seeds, but it doesnt have to be the case.

There are a lot of players throughout history that could have taken on a similar offensive role and resulted in better stats. They could have also had a great team record as well. But they knew what was needed to adapt in the playoffs and used the regular season to prepare.




Please list the players and seasons that could have been better statistically, please note when discussing stats you need to assume impact stats as well and thus include defense.

Please list EXACTLY what Giannis did that did not prepare his team of the playoffs. Please be detailed and specific. Please also cite the difference in what a player does vs. what a coach does to assure we don't confuse the two.
Ambrose
Rookie
Posts: 1,154
And1: 933
Joined: Jul 05, 2014
Contact:
 

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#25 » by Ambrose » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:44 pm

I'd say top 20 MVP season for sure.
ShotCreator
Starter
Posts: 2,164
And1: 1,500
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#26 » by ShotCreator » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:46 pm

Kabookalu wrote:He just had one of the most efficient volume scoring seasons of all tome, and was also second in voting for DPOY (I thought he should have won it). I think a lot of people are held back giving Giannis more props because of how sourly the ECF series went for him (even though this is a regular season award), and also the optics of his game, namely his lack of shooting. When a player has an easily identifiable flaw people tend be harsher on them. By all means Ben Simmons has been fantastic in his first two years in the league, yet he's the butt of many jokes because he can't shoot. It wasn't as bad but LeBron was also criticized for not being able to shoot early on in his career. He was even made fun of for his catapult like mechanics.

I'm pretty sure if Giannis traded some of his paint dominance for a more well rounded game and a nicer form he'd be more hailed.

He’d be better.

He is honestly like the ultimate representation of how the league has gone with all the box score inflation. Spamming slashes on constant 4 shooter lineups with optimal spacing.

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

Defensively though, he is impressive.
Swinging for the fences.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 17,329
And1: 6,593
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#27 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:46 pm

Plain Old Josh wrote:On a per-minute basis, it's a great MVP season. But I'd take a season like 2000 Shaq over 2019 Giannis. On a per-minute basis, Giannis might have been slightly better. But Shaq just played way more minutes per-game, appeared in 7 more games, and was worth 4.2 extra win shares.


So we're now criticizing Giannis for his team letting him rest while getting the 1 seed vs playing more minutes to get the same accomplishment?
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 17,329
And1: 6,593
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#28 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:47 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:He just had one of the most efficient volume scoring seasons of all tome, and was also second in voting for DPOY (I thought he should have won it). I think a lot of people are held back giving Giannis more props because of how sourly the ECF series went for him (even though this is a regular season award), and also the optics of his game, namely his lack of shooting. When a player has an easily identifiable flaw people tend be harsher on them. By all means Ben Simmons has been fantastic in his first two years in the league, yet he's the butt of many jokes because he can't shoot. It wasn't as bad but LeBron was also criticized for not being able to shoot early on in his career. He was even made fun of for his catapult like mechanics.

I'm pretty sure if Giannis traded some of his paint dominance for a more well rounded game and a nicer form he'd be more hailed.

He’d be better.

He is honestly like the ultimate representation of how the league has gone with all the box score inflation. Spamming slashes on constant 4 shooter lineups with optimal spacing.

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

Defensively though, he is impressive.


You mean how the league promotes good offense?
ShotCreator
Starter
Posts: 2,164
And1: 1,500
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#29 » by ShotCreator » Wed Oct 9, 2019 5:00 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:He just had one of the most efficient volume scoring seasons of all tome, and was also second in voting for DPOY (I thought he should have won it). I think a lot of people are held back giving Giannis more props because of how sourly the ECF series went for him (even though this is a regular season award), and also the optics of his game, namely his lack of shooting. When a player has an easily identifiable flaw people tend be harsher on them. By all means Ben Simmons has been fantastic in his first two years in the league, yet he's the butt of many jokes because he can't shoot. It wasn't as bad but LeBron was also criticized for not being able to shoot early on in his career. He was even made fun of for his catapult like mechanics.

I'm pretty sure if Giannis traded some of his paint dominance for a more well rounded game and a nicer form he'd be more hailed.

He’d be better.

He is honestly like the ultimate representation of how the league has gone with all the box score inflation. Spamming slashes on constant 4 shooter lineups with optimal spacing.

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

Defensively though, he is impressive.


You mean how the league promotes good offense?

Yes? But even Giannis’ approach came at the expense of players with more skills(Brogdon, Bledsoe, Middleton, even Hill).

Optimally Giannis would’ve been a much better screener, offensive rebounder and passer than he was last year so he could’ve set guys up in more ways than kickouts against teams athletic enough to get those guys out of rhythm.

Every talented player Giannis played with played better offensively in every way without him on the court. All of them. Lopez only played slightly better. The rest of the guys had massive gaps in production.

This is not what happens when you play with an elite offensive player. Volume might lower, efficiency won’t plummet with it. And it definitely won’t happen to every player.

I’ve never seen a supposed elite offensive option, crater everyone around him to play his game.

Milwaukee consistently had a great offense without him in the RS and PS. He carried absolutely nothing on that end, even if it took a huge load to make his impact.

Essentially, the basic(and exploitable)way Milwaukee played with Giannis oversold his impact through the boxscore. Because with his skill set it it was the only way to optimize him.

Ironically if Giannis was more skilled he wouldn’t have had as many points and assists. But even then his assist/TOV ratio was bad anyway. And he is visibly not adept at make passes with the right timing, and anticipating defensive coverages, which Toronto heavily exploited.

Bucks favs wondered for an entire summer why Bud used to same losing offensive strategy for 4 games in a row but it was the only way can play.
Swinging for the fences.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 17,329
And1: 6,593
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#30 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 5:10 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:He’d be better.

He is honestly like the ultimate representation of how the league has gone with all the box score inflation. Spamming slashes on constant 4 shooter lineups with optimal spacing.

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

Defensively though, he is impressive.


You mean how the league promotes good offense?

Yes? But even Giannis’ approach came at the expense of players with more skills(Brogdon, Bledsoe, Middleton, even Hill).

Optimally Giannis would’ve been a much better screener, offensive rebounder and passer than he was last year so he could’ve set guys up in more ways than kickouts against teams athletic enough to get those guys out of rhythm.

Every talented player Giannis played with played better offensively in every way without him on the court. All of them. Lopez only played slightly better. The rest of the guys had massive gaps in production.

This is not what happens when you play with an elite offensive player. Volume might lower, efficiency won’t plummet with it. And it definitely won’t happen to every player.

I’ve never seen a supposed elite offensive option, crater everyone around him to play his game.

Milwaukee consistently had a great offense without him in the RS and PS. He carried absolutely nothing on that end, even if it took a huge load to make his impact.

Essentially, the basic(and exploitable)way Milwaukee played with Giannis oversold his impact through the boxscore. Because with his skill set it it was the only way to optimize him.

Ironically if Giannis was more skilled he wouldn’t have had as many points and assists. But even then his assist/TOV ratio was bad anyway. And he is visibly not adept at make passes with the right timing, and anticipating defensive coverages, which Toronto heavily exploited.

Bucks favs wondered for an entire summer why Bud used to same losing offensive strategy for 4 games in a row but it was the only way can play.


The bucks had the number 4 offense last year and were 5.1 points per 100 better with Giannis on the floor than without. They struggled in the playoffs to score against the raptors because they put out a lineup of 5 guys who are all-nba level defenders when locked in.
Infinite Llamas
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,123
And1: 11,150
Joined: Jul 22, 2006
Location: Land of Llamas
   

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#31 » by Infinite Llamas » Wed Oct 9, 2019 5:13 pm

I personally don’t find his game appealing. Explosive drives to the rim are fun but guys like Kawhi are 1000x more fun to watch imo. Guys who can kill you from several ways and pick apart a defense. In the leagues haste to try and promote him as the next face of the league, it spit in the face of those who value mastered skills over raw energy. It is the same reason I valued Hakeem over Shaq back in the day despite seeing Shaq’s face everywhere. Though, by 2000, Shaq’s game was more multifaceted and he was an absolute feared player. There’s still time for Giannis to expand his game.
Gerald Green Loves LLamas!
Maze
Junior
Posts: 361
And1: 271
Joined: Jan 20, 2018

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#32 » by Maze » Wed Oct 9, 2019 5:47 pm

Giannis is crazy overrated at this point.Maybe if he had actual go to moves/ISO skills, this level of hype would be warranted.He's a phenomenal athlete with a shiny stat sheet, but I wouldn't consider him a #1 option.Great 2nd option.When the games really count(Playoffs), he's not all that hard to scheme against because his offensive repertoire's limited.I'm only this critical of him because people act like he's the best player in the league.He might have the best stats, but he's not the best player.He's built for the regular season.In the playoffs, I can think of plenty players I'd rather have on my team.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 17,329
And1: 6,593
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#33 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:07 pm

Maze wrote:Giannis is crazy overrated at this point.Maybe if he had actual go to moves/ISO skills, this level of hype would be warranted.He's a phenomenal athlete with a shiny stat sheet, but I wouldn't consider him a #1 option.Great 2nd option.When the games really count(Playoffs), he's not all that hard to scheme against because his offensive repertoire's limited.I'm only this critical of him because people act like he's the best player in the league.He might have the best stats, but he's not the best player.He's built for the regular season.In the playoffs, I can think of plenty players I'd rather have on my team.


You know their are 30 teams right?
skones
RealGM
Posts: 26,270
And1: 5,832
Joined: Jul 20, 2004
Location: Milwaukee
     

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#34 » by skones » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:14 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.



LOL, PLEASE show me the rest of the all-star guards that are around this level. "Just around all-star guard level" is comical.

But hey, coming from the axe to grind guy that said this outrageous thing:

ShotCreator wrote:Giannis scoring does not come in a vacuum. Its not that additive to a team because he skill set stinks and he isnt versatile.


I can't say I'm much surprised.

HyPeReFfIcIeNt 30 pOiNtS pEr GaMe Is NoT aDdItIvE cUz He DoEsN't ShOoT 3s U gUys
HBK_Kliq_33
Analyst
Posts: 3,415
And1: 1,459
Joined: Jul 05, 2018

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#35 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:24 pm

Leonard was the man and made Giannis look like just another guy in the playoffs. Giannis became the best player by default because Kawhi was on load management. Think of it like when Hakeem became the best player because Jordan wanted to go play baseball.
Maze
Junior
Posts: 361
And1: 271
Joined: Jan 20, 2018

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#36 » by Maze » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:30 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:He’d be better.

He is honestly like the ultimate representation of how the league has gone with all the box score inflation. Spamming slashes on constant 4 shooter lineups with optimal spacing.

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

Defensively though, he is impressive.


You mean how the league promotes good offense?

Yes? But even Giannis’ approach came at the expense of players with more skills(Brogdon, Bledsoe, Middleton, even Hill).

Optimally Giannis would’ve been a much better screener, offensive rebounder and passer than he was last year so he could’ve set guys up in more ways than kickouts against teams athletic enough to get those guys out of rhythm.

Every talented player Giannis played with played better offensively in every way without him on the court. All of them. Lopez only played slightly better. The rest of the guys had massive gaps in production.

This is not what happens when you play with an elite offensive player. Volume might lower, efficiency won’t plummet with it. And it definitely won’t happen to every player.

I’ve never seen a supposed elite offensive option, crater everyone around him to play his game.

Milwaukee consistently had a great offense without him in the RS and PS. He carried absolutely nothing on that end, even if it took a huge load to make his impact.

Essentially, the basic(and exploitable)way Milwaukee played with Giannis oversold his impact through the boxscore. Because with his skill set it it was the only way to optimize him.

Ironically if Giannis was more skilled he wouldn’t have had as many points and assists. But even then his assist/TOV ratio was bad anyway. And he is visibly not adept at make passes with the right timing, and anticipating defensive coverages, which Toronto heavily exploited.

Bucks favs wondered for an entire summer why Bud used to same losing offensive strategy for 4 games in a row but it was the only way can play.


Best post in the entire thread so far.You described Giannis perfectly
Adam Stern
Pro Prospect
Posts: 951
And1: 1,032
Joined: Jun 21, 2017

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#37 » by Adam Stern » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:01 pm

Maze wrote:Giannis is crazy overrated at this point.Maybe if he had actual go to moves/ISO skills, this level of hype would be warranted.He's a phenomenal athlete with a shiny stat sheet, but I wouldn't consider him a #1 option.Great 2nd option.When the games really count(Playoffs), he's not all that hard to scheme against because his offensive repertoire's limited.I'm only this critical of him because people act like he's the best player in the league.He might have the best stats, but he's not the best player.He's built for the regular season.In the playoffs, I can think of plenty players I'd rather have on my team.


I agree. I think because people want to like Giannis they want him to be the next great thing. So they tend to overrate him and overlook the glaring holes in his game.
bronxknicksfan1
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,546
And1: 166
Joined: Feb 01, 2011
     

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#38 » by bronxknicksfan1 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:49 am

Only on RealGM will there be people calling a player that averaged 27/13/6 on elite efficiency, played DPOY defense and led his team to the ECF, overrated
Xanadu
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,383
And1: 338
Joined: Dec 30, 2014
     

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#39 » by Xanadu » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:35 am

So normally I try to avoid jumping to my favorite teams players defense on the GB. Reason being I know that I have rose colored glasses on. Also I think that opinions are just that. Something that can be disagreed with but can't be stated as being false or wrong.
Having made that statement this thread is being filled with just plain false claims. Of you want to say Giannis isn't that great because you don't get think his impact matches his stats. Ok that's a opinion that I disagree with but your free to have. However saying Giannis isn't skilled offensively because lack of a jumper and pretty step backs is just false. For example if Giannis isn't a skilled offensive player the answer me why don't all fast strong tall guys do what he does. It doesn't take skill so how come he is basically the only player to score so effectively mainly by attacking the hoop. Besides early LeBron no player has come close. If his only merits as a offensive star are length speed and strength why don't others like Javale McGee do what he can. Well because in addition to his freakish physical gifts he is stay with me here very skilled. Let's take a look at all the offense basketball skills Giannis is good to great at.
Ball handling- how is he not a skilled ball handler. This is the skill that makes ok scorers great. If you say he isn't a good ball handle then your a hater or never watched him in your life. My opinion is that he is a elite ball handler in fact. Especially when considering his size and speed. You think any player can attack the hoop at his speed well not just holding his dribble but use it to fake out defenders. But let's just say he is a good ball handler due to my bias.
Finishing ability- for some reason when a small guy splits through two defenders and double clutches a and one I always here what a guy skilled at finishing in traffic and through contact. But because Giannis is long and strong he isn't a skilled finisher. Once again I call bs. His physical gifts are definitely a factor in his historical volume and efficiency. But his skill is equally important if not more so. Otherwise why don't all big seven footers finish almost everything no matter the defenders. His ability to play through contact coupled with amazing body control is a elite skill. This has been evident from his rookie season coming off the bench. Well his power dunks are great his touch and damn near supernatural awareness when when driving are perhaps one of kind. No player including LeBron and Shaq have his number of ways to finish. He can power through guys like no one since shaq. He can power his way to the rim from the outside for a double clutch lay up like young LeBron. He can use his length and soft touch to lay in a softly as Hakeem. Despite needing to be a athlete to accomplish all these they are all skills past greats had. Shaqs power was more than just his all time strength. It was also a understanding of leverage. When to use that strength and how much to. For example I often see Giannis backing down and the defender seems to halt him. Sometimes even pushing Giannis away. But then suddenly the defender relaxes for a moment. Giannis baits defenders into this moment and then crushes them on the way to a devastating dunk. Ok I am only on my first great and second skill and this post is getting long. I have a ton more but you get the point. If you want to say that you believe Giannis offense skill isn't suited to getting last minute buckets. That's valid or that you think Hardens skills are more impactful than Giannis. Fine as well but people who are saying his isn't skilled need to step back and look at the whole picture. Just because you think a all time great needs to be able to dribble into a step back fade away doesn't make it the only measure of offensive skill.
LookToShoot wrote:

Having Jason Kidd as coach will be good for Derrick Rose's career.

?????? :banghead: :crazy: :noway:
User avatar
GusT15
Rookie
Posts: 1,083
And1: 2,450
Joined: Feb 17, 2019
   

Re: How good was Giannis' MVP season? 

Post#40 » by GusT15 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:05 am

Image

Return to The General Board