China and the NBA/day 10/Harden staying out of it, Curry doesn't know enough, Pop still has no direct comment

Moderators: ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, zimpy27, bwgood77, BombsquadSammy, Yuri Vaultin, PockyCandy, Prez

The feud is dying. How do you feel?

Relieved. Beyond bored with the China stuff.
2
12%
I don't think it's dead. Someone else will speak out and create new waves.
10
59%
I'm sad man. What will I write about on realgm when this topic dies completely?
5
29%
 
Total votes: 17

Coachcavplaya23
Senior
Posts: 662
And1: 523
Joined: Aug 17, 2015
     

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#321 » by Coachcavplaya23 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:22 pm

Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:https://youtu.be/FRLLW0BSa84

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app

There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.


As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


Honestly you think China's reactions is a just a "bit extreme"? It is more like the biggest overreaction this planet has ever witnessed. They are throwing the biggest temper tantrum. Someone tweeted from another country then go ahead and suspend all Rocket's games, people are cancelling subscriptions and suspending ties to the NBA. No offense but China needs to calm the **** down here and stop overreacting because it got its feeling hurt over a simple tweet.

You are talking about China's culture and values when its government is attacking people with tear gas, beating people and arresting people on a daily basis in HK. That country and the culture you love so much needs a wake up call buddy. Your goverrment and its people are soft as hell. You may not like it but China is in the wrong here and the entire world knows it.
User avatar
durka
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,850
And1: 336
Joined: Jun 26, 2008

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#322 » by durka » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:22 pm

The NBA loses here either way. Theyve painted themselves as the morally conscious league and at this point, whether it's right too or not, people look to guys like LBJ and Kerr to speak on these sorts of issues. Once it switches from domestic problems to international, though, there are more consequences to their words. I dont blame them for not pushing this topic any further than Morey already has, but there's no way for them not to look bad. In general I think on an individual level all these guys are genuine with their activism and beliefs, they were just ignorant on some degree to how much they were benefiting from the economy of a country who's government is the antithesis of everything they claim to stand for. On a corporate level, organizations like the NBA, ESPN and Nike knew what they were getting into with China and try to pander to the left for business purposes. The end result now is all involved, individuals and corporations, look like hypocrites.

If the NBA took the same stance the NFL, MLB or NHL do on political issues(stay out of it) they would never have found themselves looking as bad as they do. The NFL would have Kaepernick'd Morey the second that tweet was brought to their attention. I'm not saying it's wrong for these guys to speak up on issues, its their right as human beings (or at the very least Americans). They're aren't entitled to the 10s of millions that come with doing business with China, though, and when you watch a guy like Kerr bumble his way through that interview it really shows how much these guys are selling out their values that they love to talk about when there aren't any financial consequences.
Czarking
Ballboy
Posts: 15
And1: 5
Joined: Mar 26, 2019

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#323 » by Czarking » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:25 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.


As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


Criticizing government violates a cultural norm?


See, this is why I said what's okay in your culture, doesn't mean is okay in my culture.

Have you ever stopped to consider that US culture isn't the same as Chinese culture?

In the US, it's an us vs the government mentality. Most people view the government and its politicians with suspicion, just look at how divided your country is towards the Trump administration. Heck, the US constitution exists to protect the people from the government, such as the right to bear arms to 'overthrow' the government and prevent state intrusion into individual lives. Essentially, it's a document that tells the federal government to leave people the F alone.

Now in China, the culture is different. Our society is modeled after Confucian values. The head of the family is the father, who provides for his wife and his children. The head of our government is the Communist party, who provides for the Chinese population and ensures their prosperity.

In China, family and the government are indistinguishable. Even the Chinese word for country is called '国家', which translates as 'Country home'. There is a saying, 'Without our country, there is no home'.

In the US, the individual is the individual, and the state is the state. The individual keeps the state at arm's length as much as possible, in case the state tries to intrude on the individual's civil liberties.

We don't have that 'Us vs them' mentality in China. Which is why when you make ignorant and irresponsible remarks about Hong Kong, you are commenting on our country's national sovereignty, which is a direct jab to our government, home, and our national pride.

This kind of stuff may fly in your country, but it's not cool in ours. This is our culture, respect it and understand that what isn't offensive to the average American citizen, may be offensive to other cultures.
scrabbarista
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,944
And1: 2,281
Joined: May 31, 2015
 

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#324 » by scrabbarista » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm

I was trying to play 2K, but this topic dragged me back in. I just wanted to say that I've noticed a few people throwing out the opinion that nothing any NBA player or personality says is going to change anything in Hong Kong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Speech is powerful. When the writers of the constitution wanted to form a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, the very first thing they did was give the people freedom of speech. Why? Because speech is power.

And second, just use your common sense. If the speech of NBA players (or execs: after all, this whole mess is about a single tweet from a GM) had no power to change anything in China, why would the CCP have reacted as it did? Why react at all? It's just ineffectual speech, no? Wrong. Speech doesn't always reveal its consequences immediately or obviously, but it is deeply and profoundly effective.
the sea duck
Junior
Posts: 492
And1: 346
Joined: Jun 27, 2007

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 5)... 

Post#325 » by the sea duck » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:28 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
the sea duck wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
I think that applies even to Kerr, and he was born in Beirut to a prominent father who was later murdered by terrorists.


Feeling personally connected to or being knowledgeable about certain issues has not been the prerequisite for speaking out until now it seems.

Example?


Oh sorry I can't think of any. Nvm.

Or just think.
AZNKidd
Freshman
Posts: 77
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 29, 2016
 

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#326 » by AZNKidd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:32 pm

Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:
As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


Criticizing government violates a cultural norm?


See, this is why I said what's okay in your culture, doesn't mean is okay in my culture.

Have you ever stopped to consider that US culture isn't the same as Chinese culture?

In the US, it's an us vs the government mentality. Most people view the government and its politicians with suspicion, just look at how divided your country is towards the Trump administration. Heck, the US constitution exists to protect the people from the government, such as the right to bear arms to 'overthrow' the government and prevent state intrusion into individual lives. Essentially, it's a document that tells the federal government to leave people the F alone.

Now in China, the culture is different. Our society is modeled after Confucian values. The head of the family is the father, who provides for his wife and his children. The head of our government is the Communist party, who provides for the Chinese population and ensures their prosperity.

In China, family and the government are indistinguishable. Even the Chinese word for country is called '国家', which translates as 'Country home'. There is a saying, 'Without our country, there is no home'.

In the US, the individual is the individual, and the state is the state. The individual keeps the state at arm's length as much as possible, in case the state tries to intrude on the individual's civil liberties.

We don't have that 'Us vs them' mentality in China. Which is why when you make ignorant and irresponsible remarks about Hong Kong, you are commenting on our country's national sovereignty, which is a direct jab to our government, home, and our national pride.

This kind of stuff may fly in your country, but it's not cool in ours. This is our culture, respect it and understand that what isn't offensive to the average American citizen, may be offensive to other cultures.


Haha...I guess what you’re trying to say is that ppl from HK and Taiwan are not Chinese because they sure are free to criticize their government. Y’all are just conditioned to believe everything criticizing the CCP as a sovereign issue. No, the HK issue is an issue of autonomy and not sovereignty. It’s an issue about HK ppl ability to exercise their own high degree autonomy (高度自治) as promised to them by the sino British declaration. Truth is, this whole HK thing blew up is because the Chinese government just doesn’t have the slightest clue to govern a territory that has the democratic principal of freedom of expression. The only method they know to quash dissent is through forceful measures and violence and it ain’t working so well.
User avatar
GREY 1769
Forum Mod - Spurs
Forum Mod - Spurs
Posts: 16,150
And1: 14,068
Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Location: Silver and Black; Blue and White
   

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 5)... 

Post#327 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:36 pm

milkii wrote:James Harden, Steve Kerr, Pop and Steph Curry has bent the knee to China.

Who else shall bend the knee?

Each of them have a had a different reaction, so how are they lumped together as bending a knee to China? Harden flat out puckered up. Steph and Kerr went the 'need to find more info' route (as I've seen Lonnie Walker and Patty Mills say in interviews about it, this from two guys who are vocal about domestic issues - indicates a closing of ranks by the NBA. Teams quickly got the memo). Pop went the full support of Silver for the amended second statement - which resulted in further anger and actions against the NBA - that backs all NBA employees' right to voice their opinions route. You can make a stance without antagonizing.

We're expecting NBA employees suddenly thrust into a geopolitical powderkeg whose commish has already released two statements and from which the repercussions are happening in real time, to respond in a concrete way, in a way we'd like, this when the NBA itself is trying to figure it out having never faced such a circumstance. Sure it's a money issue. But it's also a responsibilities to one's team and employer and league values issue. It's way more complex than we'd like to admit else we'd have to give up the self-satisfaction when there's nothing at stake for any of us.

clyde21 wrote:
milkii wrote:James Harden, Steve Kerr, Pop and Steph Curry has bent the knee to China.

Who else shall bend the knee?


they are all gonna bend the knee, they only pretend to be woke and care about human rights when it's easy like the charlotte trans bathroom nonsense.

It's nonsense to you. That doesn't make it nonsense. Not speaking up about everything we want the NBA to doesn't take away from whatever steps it does take. The NBA is of course more familiar with domestic issues and has more time to decide how to respond to them. And yes it's a money issue, but it's also a leverage issue and the NBA exerts it when it can, and in this case, for an actual good.

Leverage with China is still being negotiated - they've cancelled NBA Cares events, G-League games, and pre-season broadcasting, but not the games themselves, interesting, isn't it? - and a business versus a government with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake - for both sides. NBA took a stronger stance and is losing more - for now - and Morey still has a job.

The point is that in an evolving situation, the NBA has rallied and taken a stronger stance and is willing to pay the price for it while being willing to work with China to move forward. If China wanted a complete break on principle, it would have broken away from the financial benefit.

And if the worst case scenario of that 15%-20% drop in profit affects the NBA, then it can and should make plans to make a stronger push into other markets to mitigate it as much as they can. Where are the shirts made? Where are the bball camps established? Where are the games shown? It goes both ways. This would affect China, too, and they know it.

Imagine if the upcoming Olympic games were in China. Awkward. As they'll be in Japan, it's a good opportunity to see how the NBA reaches out to and strengthens relationships with other global partners.
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
The Spurs Way
Thinking of you, Pop :hug:
Dry_Fish
RealGM
Posts: 41,571
And1: 6,814
Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Location: San Tan, AZ
Contact:

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#328 » by Dry_Fish » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:
As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


Criticizing government violates a cultural norm?


See, this is why I said what's okay in your culture, doesn't mean is okay in my culture.

Have you ever stopped to consider that US culture isn't the same as Chinese culture?

In the US, it's an us vs the government mentality. Most people view the government and its politicians with suspicion, just look at how divided your country is towards the Trump administration. Heck, the US constitution exists to protect the people from the government, such as the right to bear arms to 'overthrow' the government and prevent state intrusion into individual lives. Essentially, it's a document that tells the federal government to leave people the F alone.

Now in China, the culture is different. Our society is modeled after Confucian values. The head of the family is the father, who provides for his wife and his children. The head of our government is the Communist party, who provides for the Chinese population and ensures their prosperity.

In China, family and the government are indistinguishable. Even the Chinese word for country is called '国家', which translates as 'Country home'. There is a saying, 'Without our country, there is no home'.

In the US, the individual is the individual, and the state is the state. The individual keeps the state at arm's length as much as possible, in case the state tries to intrude on the individual's civil liberties.

We don't have that 'Us vs them' mentality in China. Which is why when you make ignorant and irresponsible remarks about Hong Kong, you are commenting on our country's national sovereignty, which is a direct jab to our government, home, and our national pride.

This kind of stuff may fly in your country, but it's not cool in ours. This is our culture, respect it and understand that what isn't offensive to the average American citizen, may be offensive to other cultures.
I understand why you have the re-education camps now. The uighurs just didn't appreciate Chinese Confucius values.
scrabbarista
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,944
And1: 2,281
Joined: May 31, 2015
 

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#329 » by scrabbarista » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Czarking wrote:In the US, it's an us vs the government mentality. Most people view the government and its politicians with suspicion, just look at how divided your country is towards the Trump administration. Heck, the US constitution exists to protect the people from the government, such as the right to bear arms to 'overthrow' the government and prevent state intrusion into individual lives. Essentially, it's a document that tells the federal government to leave people the F alone.

Now in China, the culture is different. Our society is modeled after Confucian values. The head of the family is the father, who provides for his wife and his children. The head of our government is the Communist party, who provides for the Chinese population and ensures their prosperity.

In China, family and the government are indistinguishable. Even the Chinese word for country is called '国家', which translates as 'Country home'. There is a saying, 'Without our country, there is no home'.

In the US, the individual is the individual, and the state is the state. The individual keeps the state at arm's length as much as possible, in case the state tries to intrude on the individual's civil liberties.

We don't have that 'Us vs them' mentality in China. Which is why when you make ignorant and irresponsible remarks about Hong Kong, you are commenting on our country's national sovereignty, which is a direct jab to our government, home, and our national pride.

This kind of stuff may fly in your country, but it's not cool in ours. This is our culture, respect it and understand that what isn't offensive to the average American citizen, may be offensive to other cultures.


That argument cuts both ways. In your culture, it's not okay to criticize the government father. Fair enough. In our culture, government fathers aren't off limits. And we're not in your culture. We're in ours. When you tell an American/Westerner to stop speaking his mind, you're telling him to stop being an American/Westerner. So you can't really act like you're standing on the high ground when you ask us to respect your culture of conformity and harmony while we're all the way on the other side of the world - because that would amount to denying our own values.

EDIT: AZNKidd's response was ten times better than mine. I'm tempted to just erase this comment, his was so good. I'll leave it here, though, since I meant what I said.
Brofessor24
Freshman
Posts: 72
And1: 32
Joined: Sep 06, 2018

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#330 » by Brofessor24 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:40 pm

G35 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:With this debacle, the bug of self-censorship, specifically the suppression of public criticism of the PRC within the NBA, has peered its ugly head into the public square.

It needs to be crushed like a cockroach, immediately, impeccably, and without hesitation. Freedom of speech is too important.

If Adam Silver condones the recent blocking reporters when they ask legitimate questions, or kicking out fans with signs in support of Hong Kong protesters, he should resign.


You really want to pay 100 bucks for a ticket to a game to have someone protesting next to you?

Look, I have the right to say a heck of a lot of things. I however self censor myself at work (maybe not as much as I should but still). I'm not going to common a female co worker's body or clothing. I'm not going to discuss if I went out drinking till 3am the night before. I'm also not going to shove my politics down their throats either. If someone asks, sure I might offer it up and sure I might make less aggressive and adamant statements, but again I'm going to be tactful.

This is how adults act. The reason so many people get annoyed with politics in sports is simply because people don't want politics in their entertainment. The nba should be aware of this and hopefully players and coaches keep their views limited. While sure some have been more expressive on issues they felt passionately about, I'm not sure where most athletes stand on any issue. I have zero idea where Pop stands on how to price metro area parking, how he wants to address taxes for roads with more and more cars going electric, is views on the 3 tier alcohol distribution system in most states, the illegality of shipping alcohol to Texas (he's a big wine guy so I'm rather sure he's got an opinion). It's ok I don't know these views from him and it's also OK that he has expressed his thoughts on our current president. He felt that was an issue he needed to speak on, great. He doesn't feel the need to discuss other issues, maybe he's just not as passionate about them? We're all allowed to be more or less passionate about some topics right? If I want to end AIDs am I a jerk for not talking as much about ending cancer or ALS?




The only problem I have with Kerr, Pop, Curry, Lebron, or whoever is that if you start talking politics don't back off when it gets to a topic that you are uncomfortable talking about.

The internet never forgets.

So once you start down a path, there's no turning back.

That is why politics should not be a part of sports. Sports (and to a lighter extent) entertainment should not have politics in them. We use to know that in this country. I was just watching Terminator and Terminator 2 and you could see there were some social justice themes in the movie, but they made the movie in a way that it did not detract from the entertainment.

Now, politics are the main theme, and it seems like sports and entertainment are the sidebars. Its a turn off as a fan, just because you are talented in one aspect of life does not make you an expert or your opinion the guide for society.

When I was a teenager I was influenced by entertainers, now as an adult, I would rather form my own opinions without all the rhetoric......


I wonder if the NBA would ever consider removing the national anthem before games. If it (and any other sports league for that matter) wants to remove politics 100% from its context, that would be a good start IMO.
User avatar
Illmatic12
General Manager
Posts: 9,568
And1: 7,916
Joined: Dec 20, 2013
 

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 5)... 

Post#331 » by Illmatic12 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:41 pm

the sea duck wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
the sea duck wrote:
Feeling personally connected to or being knowledgeable about certain issues has not been the prerequisite for speaking out until now it seems.

Example?


Oh sorry I can't think of any. Nvm.

Or just think.

The last issue I remember Kerr speaking on was gun control, an issue which he has personal experience with (unfortunately) seeing as his father was gunned down.
the sea duck
Junior
Posts: 492
And1: 346
Joined: Jun 27, 2007

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#332 » by the sea duck » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:43 pm

Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:
As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


Criticizing government violates a cultural norm?


See, this is why I said what's okay in your culture, doesn't mean is okay in my culture.

Have you ever stopped to consider that US culture isn't the same as Chinese culture?

In the US, it's an us vs the government mentality. Most people view the government and its politicians with suspicion, just look at how divided your country is towards the Trump administration. Heck, the US constitution exists to protect the people from the government, such as the right to bear arms to 'overthrow' the government and prevent state intrusion into individual lives. Essentially, it's a document that tells the federal government to leave people the F alone.

Now in China, the culture is different. Our society is modeled after Confucian values. The head of the family is the father, who provides for his wife and his children. The head of our government is the Communist party, who provides for the Chinese population and ensures their prosperity.

In China, family and the government are indistinguishable. Even the Chinese word for country is called '国家', which translates as 'Country home'. There is a saying, 'Without our country, there is no home'.

In the US, the individual is the individual, and the state is the state. The individual keeps the state at arm's length as much as possible, in case the state tries to intrude on the individual's civil liberties.

We don't have that 'Us vs them' mentality in China. Which is why when you make ignorant and irresponsible remarks about Hong Kong, you are commenting on our country's national sovereignty, which is a direct jab to our government, home, and our national pride.

This kind of stuff may fly in your country, but it's not cool in ours. This is our culture, respect it and understand that what isn't offensive to the average American citizen, may be offensive to other cultures.


Umm.. this all started because an American posted something on his twitter. You don't want his twitter feed in your culture than block it. But trying to fire the guy for doing something that is encouraged in his culture is the same thing you're accusing the US of doing.

By watching the NBA, you're inviting American culture into your homes. Don't complain when it becomes obvious to you that there are differences.

Also, would be really curious if you could answer my previous question.
Czarking
Ballboy
Posts: 15
And1: 5
Joined: Mar 26, 2019

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#333 » by Czarking » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:47 pm

Coachcavplaya23 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.


As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


Honestly you think China's reactions is a just a "bit extreme"? It is more like the biggest overreaction this planet has ever witnessed. They are throwing the biggest temper tantrum. Someone tweeted from another country then go ahead and suspend all Rocket's games, people are cancelling subscriptions and suspending ties to the NBA. No offense but China needs to calm the **** down here and stop overreacting because it got its feeling hurt over a simple tweet.

You are talking about China's culture and values when its government is attacking people with tear gas, beating people and arresting people on a daily basis in HK. That country and the culture you love so much needs a wake up call buddy. Your goverrment and its people are soft as hell. You may not like it but China is in the wrong here and the entire world knows it.


Buddy, did you just say that the government is attacking people with tear gas, beating people and arresting people on a daily basis? Typical 'Murica' BS, and as usual, Americans telling people in Asia how to run their own society.

This just goes to show how grossly misinformed you are about what is actually happening on the ground. You need to change your diet, and stop consuming the laxative-laced crap and literal verbal diarrhea that CNN, Fox News or ABC is feeding you.

Videos and pictures speak a thousand words. This video was independently developed by a simple group of people who love our city and country. No State-run media, no biased news agencies as you so claim, just cold hard facts.

I won't say anymore on this matter, because it's pointless to explain the situation with people who don't even bother to review credible sources of information to create a fully well-informed view of the entire picture, and instead choose to make unintelligent comments and conclusions about a country they don't even live in. Also, Seaduck, this video alone sums up my views and answers your question, well part of it at least.

Because everything that is about 'freedom and democracy' is always right, and politics is so simple huh?

User avatar
seccom
Junior
Posts: 263
And1: 38
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
       

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#334 » by seccom » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:48 pm

Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:https://youtu.be/FRLLW0BSa84

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app

There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.


As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app


LOL, I found this in the constitution of the PRC:

Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

How does that different from the bill of right of the United States? Your government is NOT even following your own constitution, and you come up all kind of excuse for them.
the sea duck
Junior
Posts: 492
And1: 346
Joined: Jun 27, 2007

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 5)... 

Post#335 » by the sea duck » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:48 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
the sea duck wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:Example?


Oh sorry I can't think of any. Nvm.

Or just think.

The last issue I remember Kerr speaking on was gun control, an issue which he has personal experience with (unfortunately) seeing as his father was gunned down.


Sorry. I'm not talking about Kerr and Pop specifically but I now realize that that's where your comment originated. I'm talking about people in general. I think there are lessons to be learned here about how and when to speak about anything. Perhaps one lesson we might learn from this is that all situations are likely to be more nuanced than a statement or gesture can summarize. And maybe that's why a level of tact and timing is appropriate to all expression. Or maybe not.
hongdayuan
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,576
And1: 1,401
Joined: Jul 21, 2009

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#336 » by hongdayuan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:55 pm

Regardless if china’s reaction is necessary or not, they have every right to choose who to do business with. Some of you talk abt freedom of speech like if China has put morey in prison. They just decided to cut business ties with the NBA, which would cost the nba to lose billions.

It’s easy to point fingers to silver, coaches and players, when you got nothing to lose. One word come outta their mouth wrong and millions are gone. If salary cap drops next season due to this and every team is in cap hell, who do you blame? China for rightfully cutting their business ties or morey for tweeting his mind out that led to this?
User avatar
GREY 1769
Forum Mod - Spurs
Forum Mod - Spurs
Posts: 16,150
And1: 14,068
Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Location: Silver and Black; Blue and White
   

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#337 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:58 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
scrabbarista wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:With this debacle, the bug of self-censorship, specifically the suppression of public criticism of the PRC within the NBA, has peered its ugly head into the public square.

It needs to be crushed like a cockroach, immediately, impeccably, and without hesitation. Freedom of speech is too important.

If Adam Silver condones the recent blocking of reporters when they ask legitimate questions, or kicking out fans with signs in support of Hong Kong protesters, he should resign.


Man, I sympathize with the sentiment so much. I have to nitpick that NBA arenas aren't really "the public square," though. I don't think he/owners should be obligated to allow such statements within their arenas. I would just expect them to treat all political statements equally, so as to make it about the in-arena product and not the preservation of communist approval.

You're right about everything else. Self-censorship looks like the order of the day, and it should be crushed just like you say.

What's up with blocking reporters? I haven't heard about that yet.


This happened... This deserves everyone's attention. As China opens up to the world, we should welcome its trade, culture, and people, and with it, foster prosperity of all kinds. But why on earth must it come at the expense of an acritical and agnostic position - or worse- outright self-censorship - on the Chinese government and its foreign policy?

**** that.

Read on Twitter


fbalmeida wrote:
Spoiler:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
I'm not refusing to accept consequences that are attached to opinions. And there are perfectly reasonable terms for restrictions of speech, having to do with time, place, and manner. Nevertheless, I refuse to accept the expansion of the scope of censorship to a point where perfectly legitimate questions from CNN reporters are preemptively denied a response by NBA handlers.

So do you think the NBA should be forced to answer questions that would harm their business?


Reporters should be free to ask questions, however inconvenient they may be. Freedom to ask, and freedom to respond, or withhold reply. Here the NBA preempted the question from happening.


Except that wasn't NBA official, but a Rockets PR rep - a team with an owner, GM, and player in the thick of it, so the NBA hasn't silenced anyone:
Read on Twitter
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
The Spurs Way
Thinking of you, Pop :hug:
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 17,329
And1: 6,593
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 5)... 

Post#338 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:02 pm

the sea duck wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote: There’s no precedent (to my knowledge) of any of these guys regularly speaking on international geopolitics.. why would that suddenly be their area of expertise now?


I think that applies even to Kerr, and he was born in Beirut to a prominent father who was later murdered by terrorists.


Feeling personally connected to or being knowledgeable about certain issues has not been the prerequisite for speaking out until now it seems.


Sure it is. Could you discuss city hall politics of a small down you've never been to in a country you've never been to? That is of course and extreme but nobody discusses issues the have literally zero knowledge of.
scrabbarista
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,944
And1: 2,281
Joined: May 31, 2015
 

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#339 » by scrabbarista » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:03 pm

G35 wrote:There are pros/cons of allowing too much freedom compared to limiting civil liberties. I do prefer the United States approach, but I do not think the US will last as long as China since our own citizens do not believe in America......


I think you're underestimating the flexibility and adaptability of the US approach. Our freedom means we can change. A lack of freedom equals an inability to change, grow, or develop. The CCP requires face scans now to use public bathrooms. It has imprisoned millions of people for their beliefs. Children in its public schools are being fitted with electronic headbands that have a flashing light to demonstrate what kind of brain waves are prominent from moment to moment. Dissent is silenced. Sometimes permanently. Why? If its citizens believed in their nation so much, would all of this be necessary? There's a reason why the average authoritarian regime in recent centuries crumbles after about seventy years. The CCP might last a tad longer due to its technological control over its populace, but it will crumble. Collapse is inherent to systems built on coercion and corruption.
scrabbarista
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,944
And1: 2,281
Joined: May 31, 2015
 

Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#340 » by scrabbarista » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:05 pm

Czarking wrote:
Because everything that is about 'freedom and democracy' is always right, and politics is so simple huh?



Lol. Again with the posting of a single video to disprove claims to the contrary. As if I could post a video of myself chilling with friends last night to prove that my city had a rape-free, murder-free, and robbery-free evening. I'm genuinely curious where you received your education.

Return to The General Board