China and the NBA/day 10/Harden staying out of it, Curry doesn't know enough, Pop still has no direct comment

Moderators: ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, zimpy27, bwgood77, BombsquadSammy, Yuri Vaultin, PockyCandy, Prez

The feud is dying. How do you feel?

Relieved. Beyond bored with the China stuff.
2
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I don't think it's dead. Someone else will speak out and create new waves.
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I'm sad man. What will I write about on realgm when this topic dies completely?
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#361 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:50 pm

To strengthen an earlier point to those saying the NBA is silencing anyone:
Read on Twitter
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#362 » by CIN-C-STAR » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:53 pm

Czarking wrote:
Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:
Found the CCP troll.

a) Your country is committing a literal holocaust. GTFOH with your "cultural differences". If that's your culture, yours doesn't deserve to exist.

b) Videos and pictures do speak a thousand words and there are thousands of videos and pictures showing your govt. funded stooges attacking protesters. Protesters are fighting back, absolutely, but so did Jews and occupied countries against the Nazis. I'm sure you would have looked down on them too.

Ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs, organ harvesting, re-education camps, no freedom to argue against the govt. It's a dystopian hellscape. There is no defending it. There's a reason Russia and China are North Korea's only allies. Y'all arent' that dissimilar. Nothing against the Chinese, just your govt. Straight up evil.

Free Hong Kong.


Nice try Bud. Come back to me later when you can explain how your corrupted country has the moral high ground when you have invaded, pillaged and destroyed whole countries, from wiping Iraq off the face of the Earth, to reducing Syria to literal rubble and causing Libya to cease to exist as a country, displacing millions of people in the Middle East because your country has a hard-on for oil and war. :)

Before you start criticizing us based on your own ignorant interpretation of biased news coverage, why don't you fix your own mess first, and the other countries you have destroyed in the name of freedom and democracy?

Oh hey by the way, you guys committed the first 'Holocaust' when you exterminated the Native Americans in the name of 'civilization'. Read up on your country's history first cretin, that'd be a start :)


We blaming America for the contagious nature of disease now?
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#363 » by fbalmeida » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:53 pm

GREY 1769 wrote:To strengthen an earlier point to those saying the NBA is silencing anyone:
Read on Twitter


Well done. So it was a case of over-zealous intervention on-location. But at any rate, the itchiness to resort to preemptive censorship is palpable.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#364 » by madmaxmedia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:54 pm

cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
AZNKidd wrote:
Whataboutism, “bud”.


Whataboutism is really just a fancy word for saying 'I-can't-come-up-with-a-sound-argument-to defend-my-country's-heinous-crimes-so-I'll-just-find-a-clever-sounding-word-to-retort-as-my-get-out-of-jail-free-card'. :)

You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


The pro Chinese-government stance is not even about whether the government has committed heinous crimes, it's that no one should be even allowed to talk about them.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#365 » by G35 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:02 pm

GREY 1769 wrote:
G35 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
You really want to pay 100 bucks for a ticket to a game to have someone protesting next to you?

Look, I have the right to say a heck of a lot of things. I however self censor myself at work (maybe not as much as I should but still). I'm not going to common a female co worker's body or clothing. I'm not going to discuss if I went out drinking till 3am the night before. I'm also not going to shove my politics down their throats either. If someone asks, sure I might offer it up and sure I might make less aggressive and adamant statements, but again I'm going to be tactful.

This is how adults act. The reason so many people get annoyed with politics in sports is simply because people don't want politics in their entertainment. The nba should be aware of this and hopefully players and coaches keep their views limited. While sure some have been more expressive on issues they felt passionately about, I'm not sure where most athletes stand on any issue. I have zero idea where Pop stands on how to price metro area parking, how he wants to address taxes for roads with more and more cars going electric, is views on the 3 tier alcohol distribution system in most states, the illegality of shipping alcohol to Texas (he's a big wine guy so I'm rather sure he's got an opinion). It's ok I don't know these views from him and it's also OK that he has expressed his thoughts on our current president. He felt that was an issue he needed to speak on, great. He doesn't feel the need to discuss other issues, maybe he's just not as passionate about them? We're all allowed to be more or less passionate about some topics right? If I want to end AIDs am I a jerk for not talking as much about ending cancer or ALS?




The only problem I have with Kerr, Pop, Curry, Lebron, or whoever is that if you start talking politics don't back off when it gets to a topic that you are uncomfortable talking about.

The internet never forgets.

So once you start down a path, there's no turning back.

That is why politics should not be a part of sports. Sports (and to a lighter extent) entertainment should not have politics in them. We use to know that in this country. I was just watching Terminator and Terminator 2 and you could see there were some social justice themes in the movie, but they made the movie in a way that it did not detract from the entertainment.

Now, politics are the main theme, and it seems like sports and entertainment are the sidebars. Its a turn off as a fan, just because you are talented in one aspect of life does not make you an expert or your opinion the guide for society.

When I was a teenager I was influenced by entertainers, now as an adult, I would rather form my own opinions without all the rhetoric......

I don't think 1. that's apples to apples and 2. this is the correct context. Kerr, Pop, and LeBron are US citizens and speak openly about US issues. I don't know that they've been outspoken about foreign affairs with any consistency or to what extent. If they were, and then remained silent about China (and two of them haven't even if people don't like what was said), then sure, but as it stands, Kerr went the 'more knowledge to seek' route and Pop voiced support for Silver's second statement that stood up for the right of NBA personnel speaking out about issues important to them, essentially publicly willing to take a financial hit for making a clearer stand of its values.



That is not the argument from social justice.

Social justice goes with the argument "right is right and wrong is wrong"

"Right" has no boundaries, otherwise why are we concerned about what happens in other countries. Screw other countries then. Trump is criticized for being nationalistic and being "America first".

That is what Morey's argument was, that this about human rights. Not about Chinese rights or American rights.

"Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong,"

That has nothing to do with foreign affairs, that is a universal argument of fighting for freedom...or at least a westernized idea of what freedom is.

With Kerr going with the wait until I'm better informed before I answer is hypocritical based on past comments:

https://theundefeated.com/features/steve-kerr-kaepernick-warriors/

Kerr added: “Unarmed black people are being killed indiscriminately around the country. And that’s what happened two days ago. That’s the message. That’s what matters. The other stuff you can talk about all day. Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong.


Unarmed people being killed indiscriminately is what is important and nobody is right and nobody is wrong.

Kerr plans to support his team’s players in their views as long as their message on injustice is “clear.”

“Our guys have been asked a lot about it and they’ve done a great job responding,” Kerr said. “It’s a tricky topic. Not the Kaepernick situation, but social activism in general. It has to come from the heart. There are a lot of fans out there that say, ‘Stick to sports. We’re trying to get away from this by watching your team play.’

“I understand that. On the other hand, these guys have a voice. In my mind, as long as the message is clear, I’m all for people speaking out against injustice no matter what form that takes. If it’s nonviolent and leads to conversation, then I think that’s beautiful.”


This does not seem jibe with the situation in China. If Kerr does not have an opinion, then he must be ok with what is going on in Hong Kong.

https://theundefeated.com/features/san-antonio-spurs-gregg-popovich-is-the-nbas-most-woke-coach/

“He’s not the typical coach for sure,” San Antonio Spurs forward LaMarcus Aldridge told The Undefeated. “He’s in tune with what is going on around the world with people and with race. He’s not afraid to voice his beliefs and his opinions. He’s tried to help us realize that there are more things than basketball, more than the NBA.


Pop has cultivated this persona that he is "woke" and culturally aware and progressive on social issues.

“There is a big world out there and a whole lot of stuff going on,” Popovich told The Undefeated. “The more aware people are, the better off. For our team, since we have so many people from so many different areas, it helps us come together when they realize how big the world is.


This sounds like a convenient cop out.

Deadspin, which is as progressive as they come calls them both out on their weak answers to the situation:

https://deadspin.com/meatball-president-criticizes-nba-coaches-for-weak-stat-1838927582

Those critics, Steve Kerr and Gregg Popovich, were asked to comment this week on Morey’s tweet and commissioner Adam Silver’s handling of the situation, respectively. Kerr was either daunted by the historical complexity of China’s conflict with Hong Kong, or cowed by the potential consequences of getting in trouble with China’s vengeful government—either way, he declined to say anything of substance. Popovich oversold the hell out of the courage and first-amendment leadership of Silver’s various wimpy non-statements, and came no closer to acknowledging the NBA’s yucky entanglement with the Chinese government than gesturing at “economic peril” and “principles that we all hold dearly.” Whatever external pressures might be weighing on people who draw their incomes from the NBA these days, these were disappointing answers from coaches who generally do better.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#366 » by scrabbarista » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:02 pm

Czarking wrote:

The truth about Hong Kong

A pleasant ride on the subway.

Officers admiring what they referred to in a press conference as a "yellow object."
Spoiler:
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Some ethnic minorities stretching their legs at a train station on their way home from a holiday.

The local police force enjoying some outdoor exercise.

Evil and biased coverage from CNN and Fox.

Model Confucians demonstrating the Chinese virtue of filial piety.

World-class hospital care for the elderly.

Out for a Sunday drive.

To be honest, I couldn't relocate the most hideous example of violence I've seen on video: a helpless young guy in a blue and bloody pulp, still being beaten on the streets. I also left out the young boy who was shot in the chest, as that could have been construed as an act of self-defense by the police officer. I also decided to leave out the young woman who had her underwear stripped off before she was carried away by six police officers. And many, many other videos. There's only so much space here, after all.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 5)... 

Post#367 » by Fencer reregistered » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:03 pm

the sea duck wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote: There’s no precedent (to my knowledge) of any of these guys regularly speaking on international geopolitics.. why would that suddenly be their area of expertise now?


I think that applies even to Kerr, and he was born in Beirut to a prominent father who was later murdered by terrorists.


Feeling personally connected to or being knowledgeable about certain issues has not been the prerequisite for speaking out until now it seems.


Right, but suppressing the Hong Kong protests isn't even the worst thing China has done this year (although it may be second behind the Uighur catastrophe).
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#368 » by Czarking » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:03 pm

cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
AZNKidd wrote:
Whataboutism, “bud”.


Whataboutism is really just a fancy word for saying 'I-can't-come-up-with-a-sound-argument-to defend-my-country's-heinous-crimes-so-I'll-just-find-a-clever-sounding-word-to-retort-as-my-get-out-of-jail-free-card'. :)

You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


I think you'll find that I am happy to and perfectly able to explain/justify my country's 'heinous crimes', it's just that having this discussion with you will take hours. Whereas I really can't think of any sound argument to justify the millions of casualties that bankroll America's insatiable appetite for the industrial military complex, turning Iraq, Syria and Libya into Satan's literal hellhole and blasting them back into the Bronze age. But hey, feel free to PM me if you really want a proper and civilised exchange with the 'CCP troll'. I'm all ears :)
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#369 » by fbalmeida » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:05 pm

Czarking wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:
Czarking wrote:
As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

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Criticizing government violates a cultural norm?


See, this is why I said what's okay in your culture, doesn't mean is okay in my culture.

Have you ever stopped to consider that US culture isn't the same as Chinese culture?

In the US, it's an us vs the government mentality. Most people view the government and its politicians with suspicion, just look at how divided your country is towards the Trump administration. Heck, the US constitution exists to protect the people from the government, such as the right to bear arms to 'overthrow' the government and prevent state intrusion into individual lives. Essentially, it's a document that tells the federal government to leave people the F alone.

Now in China, the culture is different. Our society is modeled after Confucian values. The head of the family is the father, who provides for his wife and his children. The head of our government is the Communist party, who provides for the Chinese population and ensures their prosperity.

In China, family and the government are indistinguishable. Even the Chinese word for country is called '国家', which translates as 'Country home'. There is a saying, 'Without our country, there is no home'.

In the US, the individual is the individual, and the state is the state. The individual keeps the state at arm's length as much as possible, in case the state tries to intrude on the individual's civil liberties.

We don't have that 'Us vs them' mentality in China. Which is why when you make ignorant and irresponsible remarks about Hong Kong, you are commenting on our country's national sovereignty, which is a direct jab to our government, home, and our national pride.

This kind of stuff may fly in your country, but it's not cool in ours. This is our culture, respect it and understand that what isn't offensive to the average American citizen, may be offensive to other cultures.


This is nonsense. A societal model or form government that claims the pretense of universal acceptance, cannot do so while exerting the denial of the right to freely criticize and inquire it. Self-refuting nonsense.

Freedom of speech, and the right to casually publicly emit one's opinion on public affairs, is a fundamental universal right, whether the communist party of china likes it or not.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#370 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:07 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:To strengthen an earlier point to those saying the NBA is silencing anyone:
Read on Twitter


Well done. So it was a case of over-zealous intervention on-location. But at any rate, the itchiness to resort to preemptive censorship is palpable.

Well it's a developing issue, one the Rockets in particular are in the bull's eye with given the GM got hit with criticism as did a player took the exact opposite approach. At least Morey followed up the initial tweet with a subsequent one to try to explain.

I wonder if they're just wanting to get everyone back to the US before more explanations are given. You know Harden will be asked about it.

I don't love silence when it can be complicit to supporting oppression. So I think the NBA restating its values position that it won't suppress voices of those who express themselves, and now staying consistent is commendable. It's not an easy thing to do given all that's at stake.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#371 » by scrabbarista » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:11 pm

Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
Whataboutism is really just a fancy word for saying 'I-can't-come-up-with-a-sound-argument-to defend-my-country's-heinous-crimes-so-I'll-just-find-a-clever-sounding-word-to-retort-as-my-get-out-of-jail-free-card'. :)

You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


I think you'll find that I am happy to and perfectly able to explain/justify my country's 'heinous crimes', it's just that having this discussion with you will take hours. Whereas I really can't think of any sound argument to justify the millions of casualties that bankroll America's insatiable appetite for the industrial military complex, turning Iraq, Syria and Libya into Satan's literal hellhole and blasting them back into the Bronze age. But hey, feel free to PM me if you really want a proper and civilised exchange with the 'CCP troll'. I'm all ears :)


Had to laugh. I can't count the times WuMao's have asked me to PM them. I always assume they just want to get me off the boards and platforms where other people will see what I have say. Like it's part of the training course they take. I don't know. Maybe it's more insidious than that. Maybe they want to find a way to identify me. I don't know. I never took one up on the offer.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#372 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:15 pm

Kawhi Hands wrote:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
fbalmeida wrote:With this debacle, the bug of self-censorship, specifically the suppression of public criticism of the PRC within the NBA, has peered its ugly head into the public square.

It needs to be crushed like a cockroach, immediately, impeccably, and without hesitation. Freedom of speech is too important.

If Adam Silver condones the recent blocking of reporters when they ask legitimate questions, or kicking out fans with signs in support of Hong Kong protesters, he should resign.

Its truly amazing to me how many people believe "freedom of speech" means you can say absolutely anything you want with no consequences.


freedom of speech applies to everyone but white people.


False. Freedom of speech applies to everyone, it's just that certain people think that because they have freedom of speech means that they should also have freedom from consequences stemming from the things that they say.

Grow up.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#373 » by lakerz12 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:16 pm

fbalmeida wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:To strengthen an earlier point to those saying the NBA is silencing anyone:
Read on Twitter


Well done. So it was a case of over-zealous intervention on-location. But at any rate, the itchiness to resort to preemptive censorship is palpable.


Well done by who? There was obviously a directive given out to not allow or to avoid discussion of the whole ordeal. Saying "we're sorry" later on doesn't change that or it make it okay.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#374 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:17 pm

scrabbarista wrote:
Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


I think you'll find that I am happy to and perfectly able to explain/justify my country's 'heinous crimes', it's just that having this discussion with you will take hours. Whereas I really can't think of any sound argument to justify the millions of casualties that bankroll America's insatiable appetite for the industrial military complex, turning Iraq, Syria and Libya into Satan's literal hellhole and blasting them back into the Bronze age. But hey, feel free to PM me if you really want a proper and civilised exchange with the 'CCP troll'. I'm all ears :)


Had to laugh. I can't count the times WuMao's have asked me to PM them. I always assume they just want to get me off the boards and platforms where other people will see what I have say. Like it's part of the training course they take. I don't know. Maybe it's more insidious than that. Maybe they want to find a way to identify me. I don't know. I never took one up on the offer.


That dude HAS to be a paid troll. The amount of CCP bootlicking in his posts are almost unreal :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#375 » by cl2117 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:18 pm

Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
Whataboutism is really just a fancy word for saying 'I-can't-come-up-with-a-sound-argument-to defend-my-country's-heinous-crimes-so-I'll-just-find-a-clever-sounding-word-to-retort-as-my-get-out-of-jail-free-card'. :)

You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


I think you'll find that I am happy to and perfectly able to explain/justify my country's 'heinous crimes', it's just that having this discussion with you will take hours. Whereas I really can't think of any sound argument to justify the millions of casualties that bankroll America's insatiable appetite for the industrial military complex, turning Iraq, Syria and Libya into Satan's literal hellhole and blasting them back into the Bronze age. But hey, feel free to PM me if you really want a proper and civilised exchange with the 'CCP troll'. I'm all ears :)

Defend organ harvesting.

Then defend what is happening to Uyghurs.

Then defend lack of free speech.

Defend supporting North Korea.

Defend Winnie the Pooh.

Use as many hours/words as you need.

Feel free to not though. Because they're indefensible, as you so poignantly are pointing out are the US's crimes against humanity.

See when you continue to deflect, you just amplify the fact that you can't defend the indefensible.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#376 » by Buckeye-NBAFan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 pm

Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
Buddy, did you just say that the government is attacking people with tear gas, beating people and arresting people on a daily basis? Typical 'Murica' BS, and as usual, Americans telling people in Asia how to run their own society.

This just goes to show how grossly misinformed you are about what is actually happening on the ground. You need to change your diet, and stop consuming the laxative-laced crap and literal verbal diarrhea that CNN, Fox News or ABC is feeding you.

Videos and pictures speak a thousand words. This video was independently developed by a simple group of people who love our city and country. No State-run media, no biased news agencies as you so claim, just cold hard facts.

I won't say anymore on this matter, because it's pointless to explain the situation with people who don't even bother to review credible sources of information to create a fully well-informed view of the entire picture, and instead choose to make unintelligent comments and conclusions about a country they don't even live in. Also, Seaduck, this video alone sums up my views and answers your question, well part of it at least.

Because everything that is about 'freedom and democracy' is always right, and politics is so simple huh?



Found the CCP troll.

a) Your country is committing a literal holocaust. GTFOH with your "cultural differences". If that's your culture, yours doesn't deserve to exist.

b) Videos and pictures do speak a thousand words and there are thousands of videos and pictures showing your govt. funded stooges attacking protesters. Protesters are fighting back, absolutely, but so did Jews and occupied countries against the Nazis. I'm sure you would have looked down on them too.

Ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs, organ harvesting, re-education camps, no freedom to argue against the govt. It's a dystopian hellscape. There is no defending it. There's a reason Russia and China are North Korea's only allies. Y'all arent' that dissimilar. Nothing against the Chinese, just your govt. Straight up evil.

Free Hong Kong.


Nice try Bud. Come back to me later when you can explain how your corrupted country has the moral high ground when you have invaded, pillaged and destroyed whole countries, from wiping Iraq off the face of the Earth, to reducing Syria to literal rubble and causing Libya to cease to exist as a country, displacing millions of people in the Middle East because your country has a hard-on for oil and war. :)

Before you start criticizing us based on your own ignorant interpretation of biased news coverage, why don't you fix your own mess first, and the other countries you have destroyed in the name of freedom and democracy?


That's all anyone's asking for, the right to speak truth to power, so that biased news coverage can be exposed. The US should allow journalists to move freely without the country and report on the government (they do) and the Chinese should allow journalists to move freely without the country and report on the government (they don't)
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#377 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:26 pm

G35 wrote:
Spoiler:
GREY 1769 wrote:
G35 wrote:The only problem I have with Kerr, Pop, Curry, Lebron, or whoever is that if you start talking politics don't back off when it gets to a topic that you are uncomfortable talking about.

The internet never forgets.

So once you start down a path, there's no turning back.

That is why politics should not be a part of sports. Sports (and to a lighter extent) entertainment should not have politics in them. We use to know that in this country. I was just watching Terminator and Terminator 2 and you could see there were some social justice themes in the movie, but they made the movie in a way that it did not detract from the entertainment.

Now, politics are the main theme, and it seems like sports and entertainment are the sidebars. Its a turn off as a fan, just because you are talented in one aspect of life does not make you an expert or your opinion the guide for society.

When I was a teenager I was influenced by entertainers, now as an adult, I would rather form my own opinions without all the rhetoric......

I don't think 1. that's apples to apples and 2. this is the correct context. Kerr, Pop, and LeBron are US citizens and speak openly about US issues. I don't know that they've been outspoken about foreign affairs with any consistency or to what extent. If they were, and then remained silent about China (and two of them haven't even if people don't like what was said), then sure, but as it stands, Kerr went the 'more knowledge to seek' route and Pop voiced support for Silver's second statement that stood up for the right of NBA personnel speaking out about issues important to them, essentially publicly willing to take a financial hit for making a clearer stand of its values.



That is not the argument from social justice.

Social justice goes with the argument "right is right and wrong is wrong"

"Right" has no boundaries, otherwise why are we concerned about what happens in other countries. Screw other countries then. Trump is criticized for being nationalistic and being "America first".

That is what Morey's argument was, that this about human rights. Not about Chinese rights or American rights.

"Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong,"

That has nothing to do with foreign affairs, that is a universal argument of fighting for freedom...or at least a westernized idea of what freedom is.

With Kerr going with the wait until I'm better informed before I answer is hypocritical based on past comments:

https://theundefeated.com/features/steve-kerr-kaepernick-warriors/

Kerr added: “Unarmed black people are being killed indiscriminately around the country. And that’s what happened two days ago. That’s the message. That’s what matters. The other stuff you can talk about all day. Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong.


Unarmed people being killed indiscriminately is what is important and nobody is right and nobody is wrong.

Kerr plans to support his team’s players in their views as long as their message on injustice is “clear.”

“Our guys have been asked a lot about it and they’ve done a great job responding,” Kerr said. “It’s a tricky topic. Not the Kaepernick situation, but social activism in general. It has to come from the heart. There are a lot of fans out there that say, ‘Stick to sports. We’re trying to get away from this by watching your team play.’

“I understand that. On the other hand, these guys have a voice. In my mind, as long as the message is clear, I’m all for people speaking out against injustice no matter what form that takes. If it’s nonviolent and leads to conversation, then I think that’s beautiful.”


This does not seem jibe with the situation in China. If Kerr does not have an opinion, then he must be ok with what is going on in Hong Kong.

https://theundefeated.com/features/san-antonio-spurs-gregg-popovich-is-the-nbas-most-woke-coach/

“He’s not the typical coach for sure,” San Antonio Spurs forward LaMarcus Aldridge told The Undefeated. “He’s in tune with what is going on around the world with people and with race. He’s not afraid to voice his beliefs and his opinions. He’s tried to help us realize that there are more things than basketball, more than the NBA.


Pop has cultivated this persona that he is "woke" and culturally aware and progressive on social issues.

“There is a big world out there and a whole lot of stuff going on,” Popovich told The Undefeated. “The more aware people are, the better off. For our team, since we have so many people from so many different areas, it helps us come together when they realize how big the world is.


This sounds like a convenient cop out.

Deadspin, which is as progressive as they come calls them both out on their weak answers to the situation:

https://deadspin.com/meatball-president-criticizes-nba-coaches-for-weak-stat-1838927582

Those critics, Steve Kerr and Gregg Popovich, were asked to comment this week on Morey’s tweet and commissioner Adam Silver’s handling of the situation, respectively. Kerr was either daunted by the historical complexity of China’s conflict with Hong Kong, or cowed by the potential consequences of getting in trouble with China’s vengeful government—either way, he declined to say anything of substance. Popovich oversold the hell out of the courage and first-amendment leadership of Silver’s various wimpy non-statements, and came no closer to acknowledging the NBA’s yucky entanglement with the Chinese government than gesturing at “economic peril” and “principles that we all hold dearly.” Whatever external pressures might be weighing on people who draw their incomes from the NBA these days, these were disappointing answers from coaches who generally do better.

I'll ask again: they've been consistent with speaking out about specific domestic issues. What specific foreign issues have they been consistently speaking out about that not speaking about HK protestors would stand out as an anomaly? I understand what Morey did, and that it's a human rights issue, but you want Kerr and Pop to be informed and speak out about each thing that comes up anywhere they are?

It's not a woke 'persona' when you start basketball clinics in underprivileged communities in SA, support work against wrongful conviction, hold fundraisers for the food bank, expose players to issues beyond basketball - there are dozens of examples, these are but a few, so it's consistency of character. (I can't speak about Kerr's involvement in the Dubs community as I don't follow it but perhaps GS fans can better attest to it, but he has been consistent about speaking out about specific issues in the US).

Silver reiterated the NBA's values in the context of an American company. Pop praised him for the stance; again, you can take a position without antagonizing. The NBA took a hit for Silver's reiteration of its values. The ongoing clash is because the NBA has stood up for its values, not because it has abandoned them.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#378 » by ZB9 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:27 pm

Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
Whataboutism is really just a fancy word for saying 'I-can't-come-up-with-a-sound-argument-to defend-my-country's-heinous-crimes-so-I'll-just-find-a-clever-sounding-word-to-retort-as-my-get-out-of-jail-free-card'. :)

You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


I think you'll find that I am happy to and perfectly able to explain/justify my country's 'heinous crimes', it's just that having this discussion with you will take hours. Whereas I really can't think of any sound argument to justify the millions of casualties that bankroll America's insatiable appetite for the industrial military complex, turning Iraq, Syria and Libya into Satan's literal hellhole and blasting them back into the Bronze age. But hey, feel free to PM me if you really want a proper and civilised exchange with the 'CCP troll'. I'm all ears :)


The US was not responsible for Syria. You can blame other countries for that war.

Libya was an international coalition, led by France.
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#379 » by Vugivugi » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:27 pm

Man you americans are too funmy....youcare to much for the problems wich china has in china while usa bombed half of the world......china makes some faults in china yes but you are terroricing like i sais half of the world so please shut the f up....

What i want to say is dont point to china with your stinky finger.....
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Re: China and the NBA / Ongoing discussion (day 6)... 

Post#380 » by Collymore » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Czarking wrote:
cl2117 wrote:
Czarking wrote:
Whataboutism is really just a fancy word for saying 'I-can't-come-up-with-a-sound-argument-to defend-my-country's-heinous-crimes-so-I'll-just-find-a-clever-sounding-word-to-retort-as-my-get-out-of-jail-free-card'. :)

You do realize that describes you right? Like seriously. I can't excuse China's behaviour so I will just talk about America's.

It's ok not to be able to defend your country's heinous crimes. You should stop trying to do so.


I think you'll find that I am happy to and perfectly able to explain/justify my country's 'heinous crimes', it's just that having this discussion with you will take hours. Whereas I really can't think of any sound argument to justify the millions of casualties that bankroll America's insatiable appetite for the industrial military complex, turning Iraq, Syria and Libya into Satan's literal hellhole and blasting them back into the Bronze age. But hey, feel free to PM me if you really want a proper and civilised exchange with the 'CCP troll'. I'm all ears :)

Gotta love the kintergarten arguments going on here. No one needs to explain/justify anything another country did in order to critique what China is doing. It is separate issues. I am pretty sure there are threads about Iraq, Syria and Libya somewhere.

You do realize that most people in this thread are not official spokesmen for the USA, right? :lol:

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