BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense

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BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#1 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:28 pm



For the record, he scored on just above 1 PPP on his isolation possessions in the '18 Rockets series, which was well below the team's offensive PPP for that whole series. Nothing he said about "needing" do go iso to help the team could be supported by fact. The opposite was true.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#2 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:34 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:

For the record, he scored on just above 1 PPP on his isolation possessions in the '18 Rockets series, which was well below the team's offensive PPP for that whole series. Nothing he said about "needing" do go iso to help the team could be supported by fact. The opposite was true.

The Warriors were losing the series because they went away from their offense in favor of KD midrange ISOs. They came back in the series not only after Chris Paul got hurt, but after their offense started running predominantly through Curry again and the Warriors increased their number of 3-point attempts to match the Rockets' shot distribution.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#3 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:37 pm

Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#4 » by Joerezz7 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:38 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:

For the record, he scored on just above 1 PPP on his isolation possessions in the '18 Rockets series, which was well below the team's offensive PPP for that whole series. Nothing he said about "needing" do go iso to help the team could be supported by fact. The opposite was true.

The Warriors were losing the series because they went away from their offense in favor of KD midrange ISOs. They came back in the series not only after Chris Paul got hurt, but after their offense started running predominantly through Curry again and the Warriors increased their number of 3-point attempts to match the Rockets' shot distribution.


I totally disagree. Houston had the lead that game. They kept jacking up 3s in the 2nd half. I don’t even think they attempted a layup. If they did they would’ve won that game even without Chris Paul. It had nothing to do with KD or Steph. The Rockets jacking up 3s like madmen is what lost them that game
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There is nothing inherently different about winning in the Finals compared to winning other playoff seriess,
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#5 » by Joerezz7 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:43 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.



This is completely false. If this was true then Greek freak would’ve been in the NBA Finals last year and possibly won a championship.

I would also say that Steve Nash Phoenix Suns would’ve went to the Finals too. This is a totally false statement. The reason Charles Barkley says a jump shooting team can’t win a championship is because the stuff that works in the season don’t work in the playoffs or Finals. I do agree with your statement about the bench part though
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There is nothing inherently different about winning in the Finals compared to winning other playoff seriess,
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#6 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:46 pm

Joerezz7 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.



This is completely false. If this was true then Greek freak would’ve been in the NBA Finals last year and possibly won a championship.

I would also say that Steve Nash Phoenix Suns would’ve went to the Finals too. This is a totally false statement. The reason Charles Barkley says a jump shooting team can’t win a championship is because the stuff that works in the season don’t work in the playoffs or Finals. I do agree with your statement about the bench part though


You're basically proving my point with your example. Giannis was net positive on the court, so losing the series doesn't fall on his shoulders. The problem was, the Raptors had a better 8-man rotation, and the Bucks bench depth after their top 8 no longer made a difference. It had nothing to do with the Bucks style being less effective.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#7 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:48 pm

Joerezz7 wrote:.


Also I'm a little confused about your position. You started by acting like Giannis was the problem, but then took a 180 and pointed the finger at jump shooters.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#8 » by levon » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:48 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.

Of course screens and 3 pointers still work. It's just that over the course of a long series the opposing team will focus on making you uncomfortable with the usual sets you've been running generally against everyone. The game-planning is far more specific and the threshold of contact for a foul increases. All of that means you're going to be getting into your sets far later and with more variation, meaning the potential for players getting out of sync and actions breaking down increases.

You need transcendent scorers and playmakers to elevate you in those situations.

If you have the most fine-tuned offense of all time, maybe you don't need that singular guy. But there were very few teams historically like the GS Warriors.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#9 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:51 pm

levon wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.

Of course screens and 3 pointers still work. It's just that over the course of a long series the opposing team will focus on making you uncomfortable with the usual sets you've been running generally against everyone. The game-planning is far more specific and the threshold of contact for a foul increases. All of that means you're going to be getting into your sets far later and with more variation, meaning the potential for players getting out of sync and actions breaking down increases.

You need transcendent scorers and playmakers to elevate you in those situations.

If you have the most fine-tuned offense of all time, maybe you don't need that singular guy. But there were very few teams historically like the GS Warriors.


Steph Curry is a transcendent scorer. 2014 Spurs sounds closer to what you're describing.

To your point though, yes game planning is more specific. That's not a reality that benefits iso scorers any more than it does set offenses. Teams can game plan against iso tendencies just as easily.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#10 » by NO-KG-AI » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:52 pm

Remember, the Warriors and Steph are way better without KD, he stops their offense. Which is why they looked so amazing in the finals when he went down.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#11 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:55 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Remember, the Warriors and Steph are way better without KD, he stops their offense. Which is why they looked so amazing in the finals when he went down.


They looked as good/better in the Finals than they did in the 1st round against the Clippers. Problem was, they were playing a much better team.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#12 » by og15 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:11 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:Remember, the Warriors and Steph are way better without KD, he stops their offense. Which is why they looked so amazing in the finals when he went down.


They looked as good/better in the Finals than they did in the 1st round against the Clippers. Problem was, they were playing a much better team.

Maybe, I'll have it check again, but from my recollection, the Warriors didn't have much of an offense problem against the Clippers, they had a defense problem. They didn't really look no as good or anything against the Clippers on offense, but their defensive intensity and focus was not optimal. I'll check the actual numbers and see though.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#13 » by TheBallsDeeper » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:14 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.



This is completely false. If this was true then Greek freak would’ve been in the NBA Finals last year and possibly won a championship.

I would also say that Steve Nash Phoenix Suns would’ve went to the Finals too. This is a totally false statement. The reason Charles Barkley says a jump shooting team can’t win a championship is because the stuff that works in the season don’t work in the playoffs or Finals. I do agree with your statement about the bench part though


You're basically proving my point with your example. Giannis was net positive on the court, so losing the series doesn't fall on his shoulders. The problem was, the Raptors had a better 8-man rotation, and the Bucks bench depth after their top 8 no longer made a difference. It had nothing to do with the Bucks style being less effective.

And Toronto would have had the best record in the East if Kawhi was interested in the regular season and they had Gasol all season. It wasn't that the Bucks game didn't hold up to playoff basketball, it's just that they faced a full-strength Raptors.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#14 » by GeorgeMarcus » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:19 am

og15 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:Remember, the Warriors and Steph are way better without KD, he stops their offense. Which is why they looked so amazing in the finals when he went down.


They looked as good/better in the Finals than they did in the 1st round against the Clippers. Problem was, they were playing a much better team.

Maybe, I'll have it check again, but from my recollection, the Warriors didn't have much of an offense problem against the Clippers, they had a defense problem. They didn't really look no as good or anything against the Clippers on offense, but their defensive intensity and focus was not optimal. I'll check the actual numbers and see though.


The Raps were the best defense in the league come playoff time (pretty easily). The Clips defense was... mediocre at best? They ranked 19th in defensive efficiency in the regular season. I'm sure the Warriors were more efficient against the Clips but that shouldn't be taken at face value.

And let me add: obviously they weren't better without Durant. If it was Steph that got hurt though, they probably get bounced by Houston in the 2nd round.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#15 » by Joerezz7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.



This is completely false. If this was true then Greek freak would’ve been in the NBA Finals last year and possibly won a championship.

I would also say that Steve Nash Phoenix Suns would’ve went to the Finals too. This is a totally false statement. The reason Charles Barkley says a jump shooting team can’t win a championship is because the stuff that works in the season don’t work in the playoffs or Finals. I do agree with your statement about the bench part though


You're basically proving my point with your example. Giannis was net positive on the court, so losing the series doesn't fall on his shoulders. The problem was, the Raptors had a better 8-man rotation, and the Bucks bench depth after their top 8 no longer made a difference. It had nothing to do with the Bucks style being less effective.


Come on bro you know that the playoffs is about ADJUSTMENTS. Teams adjust after each game in a playoff series. Another thing a team can win a season series against another team and then turn around and lose to that same team in a playoff series.

Superstar players like Lebron and KD elevate their game in the playoffs. Teams do it too. They don’t do it by playing the same way they did in the season
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:


There is nothing inherently different about winning in the Finals compared to winning other playoff seriess,
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#16 » by Joerezz7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:32 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:.


Also I'm a little confused about your position. You started by acting like Giannis was the problem, but then took a 180 and pointed the finger at jump shooters.


Lol it was a little bit of both. Greek freak half court offense is terrible and then those same 3s they shot in the season didn’t work against the Raptors even though by record they were the better team. Raptors made better adjustments that’s why
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GeorgeMarcus wrote:


There is nothing inherently different about winning in the Finals compared to winning other playoff seriess,
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#17 » by og15 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:34 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
og15 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
They looked as good/better in the Finals than they did in the 1st round against the Clippers. Problem was, they were playing a much better team.

Maybe, I'll have it check again, but from my recollection, the Warriors didn't have much of an offense problem against the Clippers, they had a defense problem. They didn't really look no as good or anything against the Clippers on offense, but their defensive intensity and focus was not optimal. I'll check the actual numbers and see though.


The Raps were the best defense in the league come playoff time (pretty easily). The Clips defense was... mediocre at best? They ranked 19th in defensive efficiency in the regular season. I'm sure the Warriors were more efficient against the Clips but that shouldn't be taken at face value.

And let me add: obviously they weren't better without Durant. If it was Steph that got hurt though, they probably get bounced by Houston in the 2nd round.
Sure, but then I'm not sure it's a good statement for us to say that they looked good/better in the finals that they did in the first round vs the Clippers, especially without any sort of clarifying statement of "relative to defense". It's definitely a good statement if they looked worse against a poor Clippers defense vs an elite Raptors defense, but I'm not convinced they did. Now if we're shifting it to they looked better relative to the defensive competition, then, maybe? I don't know, did they?
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#18 » by GeorgeMarcus » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:35 am

Joerezz7 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:

This is completely false. If this was true then Greek freak would’ve been in the NBA Finals last year and possibly won a championship.

I would also say that Steve Nash Phoenix Suns would’ve went to the Finals too. This is a totally false statement. The reason Charles Barkley says a jump shooting team can’t win a championship is because the stuff that works in the season don’t work in the playoffs or Finals. I do agree with your statement about the bench part though


You're basically proving my point with your example. Giannis was net positive on the court, so losing the series doesn't fall on his shoulders. The problem was, the Raptors had a better 8-man rotation, and the Bucks bench depth after their top 8 no longer made a difference. It had nothing to do with the Bucks style being less effective.


Come on bro you know that the playoffs is about ADJUSTMENTS. Teams adjust after each game in a playoff series. Another thing a team can win a season series against another team and then turn around and lose to that same team in a playoff series.

Superstar players like Lebron and KD elevate their game in the playoffs. Teams do it too. They don’t do it by playing the same way they did in the season


Game planning and adjustments matter. No doubt. That doesn't translate to iso players being more effective than team offense. Your argument stems from a non sequitur.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#19 » by GeorgeMarcus » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:40 am

og15 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
og15 wrote:Maybe, I'll have it check again, but from my recollection, the Warriors didn't have much of an offense problem against the Clippers, they had a defense problem. They didn't really look no as good or anything against the Clippers on offense, but their defensive intensity and focus was not optimal. I'll check the actual numbers and see though.


The Raps were the best defense in the league come playoff time (pretty easily). The Clips defense was... mediocre at best? They ranked 19th in defensive efficiency in the regular season. I'm sure the Warriors were more efficient against the Clips but that shouldn't be taken at face value.

And let me add: obviously they weren't better without Durant. If it was Steph that got hurt though, they probably get bounced by Houston in the 2nd round.
Sure, but then I'm not sure it's a good statement for us to say that they looked good/better in the finals that they did in the first round vs the Clippers, especially without any sort of clarifying statement of "relative to defense". It's definitely a good statement if they looked worse against a poor Clippers defense vs an elite Raptors defense, but I'm not convinced they did. Now if we're shifting it to they looked better relative to the defensive competition, then, maybe? I don't know, did they?


The best example to use is the one in the OP, given that they played with and without Durant against the same team. I just thought it was silly to point to the Finals as a counter argument, when there's no reason to believe a KD-led squad (without Steph) would have performed any better. I'm confident they would have played worse, assuming they make it that far.
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Re: BBallBreakdown basically refuting what KD said about the Warriors' offense 

Post#20 » by Joerezz7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:00 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
You're basically proving my point with your example. Giannis was net positive on the court, so losing the series doesn't fall on his shoulders. The problem was, the Raptors had a better 8-man rotation, and the Bucks bench depth after their top 8 no longer made a difference. It had nothing to do with the Bucks style being less effective.


Come on bro you know that the playoffs is about ADJUSTMENTS. Teams adjust after each game in a playoff series. Another thing a team can win a season series against another team and then turn around and lose to that same team in a playoff series.

Superstar players like Lebron and KD elevate their game in the playoffs. Teams do it too. They don’t do it by playing the same way they did in the season


Game planning and adjustments matter. No doubt. That doesn't translate to iso players being more effective than team offense. Your argument stems from a non sequitur.



GeorgeMarcus wrote:Yeah it’s a completely baseless argument. The stuff that works in the regular season still works in the playoffs. Really the only difference is shortened rotations, so bench depth doesn’t matter as much.


Exactly my point. Game planning and adjustments matters. This is why stuff that worked in the regular season don’t work for every team in the playoffs
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
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There is nothing inherently different about winning in the Finals compared to winning other playoff seriess,

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