Its Clear Who’s the Best Center...

[Tiny ball]

Tacko Fall.

[SkyHookFTW]

The versatility of KAT on offense as a shooter can't be overstated. He has many weapons in his arsenal, which is good. I haven't seen a lot of KAT's games (10-12ish), but when he goes against Embiid one on one down low he usually can't do squat against him...but if he is hitting his outside shots it doesn't matter. This is my one question about KAT: if he is having a bad night from the perimeter, can he score inside consistently against guys like Embiid? It seems like he can handle anyone else when I see him play. Or is Embiid just that one bad matchup for him?

[LibertyPrime]

When evaluating the best center, you need to consider who is capable of showing up and playing. Embiid has missed more than 60% of the games he could have played in his career thus far, and he's not showing any signs of getting more durable with age.

[Colbinii]

That's what i am saying. Towns better shooting makes him considerably better at spacing the floor which, generally speaking, is not the main role of the first option.

But Towns is also better at many other things offensively. He is also a better fit among teams as he can play anywhere on the court; Embiid can not.

What you need from your first option is to be an excellent 1v1 player so that he can create his offense and get you a bucket when you need it [/quote]

Embiid scored .81 PPP on isolation.
Towns scored .88 PPP on isolation.

Towns scored 1.19 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Embiid scored .95 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Towns is in the 70th percentile, Embiid in the 28th.

and have a good vision so that he can pass out of the double teams and create open shots for his teammates. Anything else is just gravy. Being a good 3 point shooter would allow him to play off ball and coexist with another dominant scorer, but unless he can shoot 3s off the dribble it doesnt help him with his main job.

Two things:

Towns is a phenomenal passer.

Embiid finished with 6.8 Potential Assists per game and Towns at 6.2. Adjusted Assists has Embiid at 4.1 and Towns at 4.0.

Towns was at 3.4/3.1 Ast/Tov while Embiid was at 3.7/3.5 Ast/Tov.

Where you absolutely need shooting is from your other options that play more off ball.

Yes and Towns is much better at this. His offensive game scales much better than Embiid and he is just as good on ball [imo better] while being a much better off ball player.

Towns could work as a quasi first option in a more egalitarian offense like if he was replacing Durant in the Warriors but i am not sure he has the skillset to be a more traditional first option like Harden is. Davis is another such a player imo.

[/quote]

And Embiid could not be close to a 1st option on a team like Golden State.

I'm missing thr entire argument for Embiid here offensively.

[bebopdeluxe]

Watch on YouTube

Let's look at Joel Embiid. He's getting a lot of help from Ben Simmons on defense. Embiid's individual defense isn't as strong as KAT's I think according to analytics. What he has to do is score against Towns on offense. Obviously, this rivalry will get a lot of eyeballs moving forward. It would be interesting if KAT had some help on defense like from an OG Anunoby.

WUT

[Bayside]

Towns needs out of the TWoves if he wants to start winning mathups with the clown.
Joel "Hans" Embiid- The Hans Goober of the NBA needs to grow up and a good therapist.
Jokic needs more salad

Embiid has less skills then the other two and a big mouth. Embiid and Jokic have longevity concerns. I would take KAT if building a team.

[youngcrev]

Embiid scored .81 PPP on isolation.
Towns scored .88 PPP on isolation.

Towns scored 1.19 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Embiid scored .95 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Towns is in the 70th percentile, Embiid in the 28th.

Neither of those isolation numbers would be considered good, and neither really get a ton of possessions that qualify as being "isolations."

The Sixers also run almost zero pick and roll (least in the league), so I don't think that's a very relevant number for Embiid.

Embiid does the vast majority of his work in the post. He and Towns ranked 2nd and 3rd in post possessions last year, where Embiid scored 1.05 PPP and KAT scored at 1.02 PPP.

I agree with your underlying point that KAT is the better offensive player. Embiid has a slight advantage in the post, but post offense in general isn't that efficient, and KAT is the much better shooter. I think KAT is more capable of getting his in the flow of the offense, while Jo can be a bit of a ball stopper. Embiid's ability to draw fouls and get opposing bigs in foul trouble is valuable and hard quantify, but I don't think that's enough to really support an argument for him.

[Colbinii]

Embiid scored .81 PPP on isolation.
Towns scored .88 PPP on isolation.

Towns scored 1.19 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Embiid scored .95 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Towns is in the 70th percentile, Embiid in the 28th.

Neither of those isolation numbers would be considered good, and neither really get a ton of possessions that qualify as being "isolations."

The Sixers also run almost zero pick and roll (least in the league), so I don't think that's a very relevant number for Embiid.

Embiid does the vast majority of his work in the post. He and Towns ranked 2nd and 3rd in post possessions last year, where Embiid scored 1.05 PPP and KAT scored at 1.02 PPP.

I agree with your underlying point that KAT is the better offensive player. Embiid has a slight advantage in the post, but post offense in general isn't that efficient, and KAT is the much better shooter. I think KAT is more capable of getting his in the flow of the offense, while Jo can be a bit of a ball stopper. Embiid's ability to draw fouls and get opposing bigs in foul trouble is valuable and hard quantify, but I don't think that's enough to really support an argument for him.

Good evaluation. Ultimately I think Towns is the clearly superb offensive player but it has not made up for the difference in defense between the two. Embiid has been on DPOY level defense while Towns has been a negative.

Team situation aside Embiid has been the better player thus far in their careers but I think the discussion between the two deserves merit, especially moving forward as both enter their true primes. Great talents.

[SkyHookFTW]

It seems as if have reached a consensus.
--Towns is the better offensive player.
--Embiid is the better defensive player.
--Jokic better eat more salads.

[youngcrev]

Embiid scored .81 PPP on isolation.
Towns scored .88 PPP on isolation.

Towns scored 1.19 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Embiid scored .95 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Towns is in the 70th percentile, Embiid in the 28th.

Neither of those isolation numbers would be considered good, and neither really get a ton of possessions that qualify as being "isolations."

The Sixers also run almost zero pick and roll (least in the league), so I don't think that's a very relevant number for Embiid.

Embiid does the vast majority of his work in the post. He and Towns ranked 2nd and 3rd in post possessions last year, where Embiid scored 1.05 PPP and KAT scored at 1.02 PPP.

I agree with your underlying point that KAT is the better offensive player. Embiid has a slight advantage in the post, but post offense in general isn't that efficient, and KAT is the much better shooter. I think KAT is more capable of getting his in the flow of the offense, while Jo can be a bit of a ball stopper. Embiid's ability to draw fouls and get opposing bigs in foul trouble is valuable and hard quantify, but I don't think that's enough to really support an argument for him.

Good evaluation. Ultimately I think Towns is the clearly superb offensive player but it has not made up for the difference in defense between the two. Embiid has been on DPOY level defense while Towns has been a negative.

Team situation aside Embiid has been the better player thus far in their careers but I think the discussion between the two deserves merit, especially moving forward as both enter their true primes. Great talents.

Yeah, defense is the big separator between the two. After him and Gobert I don't think anyone is really even close on that end. Offensively, I don't think Jo has much of an argument over Towns, AD or Jokic.

Towns vs Jokic offensively is an interesting debate (and in general since I think Jokic's defensive metrics looks better than what he actually provides on that end)

[Hussien Fatal]

Beverley's defense is no way near the level of Hardens offense, the analogy was so poor that I thought it was pretty obvious that it didn't deserve comment.

Dude exactly my point

Your point was that it was a poor analogy to compare one elite offensive player with one above-average defensive player rather than an elite defensive player? Seems weird.

Pat Bev is clearly one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. That is what he brings elite man defense not above average lol. But like i said harden>>>pat bev embiid>>>gobert now if you want another example durant>>>covington. Im sorry to break it to you but offense matters just as much as defense and if you are one dimensional like Rudy it can keep you outta that upper echelon category.

Also you keep telling me im going off box scores because im valuing offense which is very strange, but offense is a part of the game that goes beyond box scores into analytical metrics. Just because im using his lack of offense against him doesnt mean im basing it off of box scores lol. I cant put it to you any other way my man i hope you can understand this time.

[bb22]

Embiid is the best CENTER in the NBA, but Jokic is POINT-CENTER (two in one).

Also, Jokic makes teammates better.

Does he really make them better? I haven't watched them play without Jokic, but I doubt Jamal's, Gary's, Milsap's production would decrease without Jokic running the floor.

[Hussien Fatal]

I find it crazy that people dont think embiid is on the same offensive level as Kat AD and Jokic. The man has averaged close to a point per minute for his career and he has the highest career ppg average out of all of them.

[Hroz]

Gobert should be on that list......

But it's between Jokic & Embiid.

Towns getting ready to join the club though.

[SkyHookFTW]

I find it crazy that people dont think embiid is on the same offensive level as Kat AD and Jokic. The man has averaged close to a point per minute for his career and he has the highest career ppg average out of all of them.

Maybe people see Embiid as harder to build around than KAT and Jokic. I don't think anyone is denying that Embiid is productive and impactful. Embiid scores ugly a lot (still effective), not with diverse style like KAT, and he can't match Jokic's passing and court vision.

One thing I will say about Embiid's impact on defense is that I have watched games where opponents won't even drive on Embiid when he's totally locked in. In a way that probably hurts stats like blocked shots for him. Never saw KAT or Jokic put that kind of fear into an opposing player.

[VDT]

But Towns is also better at many other things offensively. He is also a better fit among teams as he can play anywhere on the court; Embiid can not.

True. Although i expect Embiid's three point shooting to improve over the years.

Embiid scored .81 PPP on isolation.
Towns scored .88 PPP on isolation.

Towns scored 1.19 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Embiid scored .95 PPP as the pick and roll "Roll Man".
Towns is in the 70th percentile, Embiid in the 28th.

I had a look at the data and i am not sure how they define an isolation. For Embiid it gives 1.7 possessions per game which are certainly much less that what i have in mind when i say 1v1. Perhaps a better indication is unassisted baskets where Embiid hovers around 45%-50% (excluding the rookie year and this year) while Towns is around 30%-35% (with the same exclusions). Even then, a lot of assisted baskets are not assisted in a meaningful sense so i am not sure how to find a stat to measure the ability to create your shot.

The Sixers dont really run much pnr. It is anyway not related to the ability of someone to create his shot. If anything if anything if Wolves are running a lot of pnr it will tend to inflate Towns data as he will be matched with smaller players.

Having said that i want to mention three points.

Firstly, Embiid has considerably larger scoring volume, measured either by usage rate, points per 36 or points per 100 possessions.

Secondly, Embiid is considerably better defender and it is likely that he expends more energy than Towns playing defense

Thirdly, the Sixers had always spacing issues which is more detrimental to Embiid's playing style.

Two things:

Towns is a phenomenal passer.

Embiid finished with 6.8 Potential Assists per game and Towns at 6.2. Adjusted Assists has Embiid at 4.1 and Towns at 4.0.

Towns was at 3.4/3.1 Ast/Tov while Embiid was at 3.7/3.5 Ast/Tov.

I didnt mention Towns passing at all, i just said your first option needs to have good vision. Moreover Embiid's turnovers are probably inflated by his inexperience and the poor spacing of the Sixers teams.

Yes and Towns is much better at this. His offensive game scales much better than Embiid and he is just as good on ball [imo better] while being a much better off ball player.

True, he is easier to fit and can take a more complementary role easier than Embiid

And Embiid could not be close to a 1st option on a team like Golden State.

That is a bit hypothetical. If anything Golden State's spacing will help him even more. However it is true that Embiid is not a seamless fit in a pace and space offense.

I'm missing thr entire argument for Embiid here offensively.

My argument, which is partially future projection, is that when i look at these two players Embiid's physical attributes and skillset point to an on ball offensive player. Partly because his 3 point shooting is still below average but partly because his physical profile means that he will have significant physical/athletic advantages against pretty much any opposing center and his footwork and skills allow him to exploit this advantage. Towns on the other hand is considerably better shooter but i dont see the physical profile that will allow him to dominate his opponents.

To put it in another way, with Embiid i see a relatively clear path to being unguardable (and to a significant degree he is already there) while for Towns the path is not as clear. I dont think he has the size/athleticism to dominate in the post, i doubt he will start hitting 3s like Curry so i am not sure what is his path to being unguardable (which is different than just being efficient, which he is). Maybe try to emulate Dirk? I dont know. To me it is much easier to picture him scoring within the offense as a secondary option or a co-first option in a more egaliterian pace and space offensive scheme.

[mudsak]

If I could pick any Center in the league I would choose Embiid. He's such a beast. I think he's immature, and could be problematic with players/coaches but I think he's the best talent out of any other Center in the NBA. Jokic is great, but he's not as well rounded as Embiid imo. Let's pretend for a moment that the 76ers and Nuggets face off in the Finals... Embiid will manhandle Jokic at both ends of the floor. Embiid is one of the most dominant offensive players in the NBA, and also a definite DPOY candidate. I love Jokic's game, but Embiid is the better player.

The other guys mentioned don't even belong in the conversation. Honorable mentions at best. Give KAT a couple more years and I wouldn't be surprised if he takes the top spot. For whatever reason it doesn't seem like center's reign at the top for very long.

[darmani]

Aron Baynes is the best 2 way center in the NBA this season.

[Axolotl]

Jokic. The 20 more games/season compared to Embiid tilt the scale in Jokic's favour.

[Bum Adebayo]

I find it crazy that people dont think embiid is on the same offensive level as Kat AD and Jokic. The man has averaged close to a point per minute for his career and he has the highest career ppg average out of all of them.

Embiid is not as good on offense as Kat and Jokic, this is because part of his offense relies on drawing tons of fouls and being stronger than his defender to score in an easier way. Against certain defenders in playoffs, he struggles, his offense is not diversified enough or good enough in the shooting or ball handling department.
The good news is at least you know that if his offense is not working, you have his elite defense, so he is always going to have a high impact.