MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

90sAllDecade · Post #2041 » by **90sAllDecade** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:12 am

The Rockets have the lowest scoring bench in the league at 30th and the Bucks are ranked 7th right now:
https://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?StarterBench=Bench&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PTS&dir=-1

If you want to check Net rating for bench, the Bucks are third in the league, with Dallas, Clippers and Lakers all top 1-4 with Houston eighth:
https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?StarterBench=Bench&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

If you value PIE or Player Impact Estimate as a stat, the Bucks are second in the league with Houston 14th:
https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?StarterBench=Bench&sort=PIE&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

I would say yes, Milwakee and Giannis' supporting cast is arguably much better if you consider bench as well right now.

Post #2042 » by **Duke4life831** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:45 am

So it appears this year's MVP discussion is pretty much a competition on who has the worst supporting cast? Is that really what is happening now?

MJ won 5 MVPs, 2 of those were playing alongside 2 HOFers.
Bird won 3 MVPs playing alongside multiple HOFers.
LeBron won 2 MVPs playing alongside Wade and Bosh
KD won his playing alongside Westbrook

When did winning the MVP become a competition of guys who had the worst supporting cast? There are no super teams this year, no one is playing with a super loaded deck. So why has this become such a huge talking point in this discussion? Just seems so weird reading this and practically seeing arguments like, "Uh oh not good for Giannis MVP chances, his team just won without him." or "Harden should have the edge because his teammates are horrible!"

We're going to get to a point where players will have to make the decision what will be more important MVPs or Championships because god forbid a player be on a good team that has a chance to win a championship, if that happens he wont even be considered for MVP.

Dupp · Post #2043 » by **Dupp** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:51 am

Almost willing to move towns up to second now

jehosafats · Post #2044 » by **jehosafats** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:58 am

Seriously, LeVideo Game James, 21 points, 7 rebounds, 16 assists, 1 block, 2 steals, 1 turnover.

Post #2045 » by **ken6199** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:02 am

Couple more days until we reset the polls. I know 6-10 guys don't really matter much but I still think recognition should be given properly (Towns, Mitchell, Butler etc).

We can either use Seikou's diary or bbref MVP odds top 10.

LoneyROY · Post #2046 » by **LoneyROY** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:09 am

Harden has taken it to another level with his efficiency lately.

Less FTs, higher efficiency. James killing narratives by the day. :lol:

dygaction · Post #2047 » by **dygaction** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:36 am

kazyv wrote:
limbo wrote:
dygaction wrote:The flaw of ISO is other players including the bench would get cold without enough touches. That's why people like you claim he does not have enough help.
As much you want to downgrade RW, he is still a really good player with 24/8/7. It is the coach's job to prevent him from chucking 3s.
ISO and biggest star's sub par defense have a big part to do with the overall below average defense. You cannot expect everyone to be as motivated when they are not part of the offense.

Didn't we just establish the offense isn't the problem? So why are you talking about players getting cold without enough touches?

Who are these 'cold' players, btw?

PJ Tucker - 63%TS
Capela - 63%TS
House - 60%TS
McLemore - 59%TS
Chandler - 74%TS
Clemons - 59%TS

The only guys that are 'cold' are Austin Rivers, who was also 'cold' in New Orleans, LAC and Washington... He's been 'cold' his whole career because he's booty cheeks and only in the league due to his father's nepotism. And of course Westbrook, who can't score in the half-court to save his life. And no, it's not because of Harden, because he wasn't much better his last two seasons in OKC...

looks like his supporting cast isn't so bad after all?

wb sucking is on harden, since he had cp3 shipped out, sooo....

what are you arguing again?

LOL, that's when one argues so hard to prove something, the supporting cast need to switch between bad and good based on need.

Sulico · Post #2048 » by **Sulico** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:38 am

Doncic had better game today than all other candidates.
One step closer to MVP.

dygaction · Post #2049 » by **dygaction** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:48 am

Mighty Quinn wrote:Seriously, LeVideo Game James, 21 points, 7 rebounds, 16 assists, 1 block, 2 steals, 1 turnover.

With 6 min less playing time due to a blow out win in 3 quarters, Luka, 31 points, 12 rebounds, 15 assists, 0 block, 2 steals, 3 turnovers. More impressive if you ask me.

BlueSan · Post #2050 » by **BlueSan** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:05 am

Greek Freak after 40% of the season

Dupp · Post #2051 » by **Dupp** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:45 am

Mighty Quinn wrote:Seriously, LeVideo Game James, 21 points, 7 rebounds, 16 assists, 1 block, 2 steals, 1 turnover.

His passing is great atm and turnovers have stayed down which is impressive. His scoring and movement atm looks very bad. Think hes hobbled. If not its a big issue.

scrabbarista · Post #2052 » by **scrabbarista** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:41 am

LoneyROY wrote:Harden has taken it to another level with his efficiency lately.

Less FTs, higher efficiency. James killing narratives by the day.

Since the game in which James Capers and Kevin Scott decided not to include Harden's dunk in the final score, Harden's FTA's have gone from 14.9 per game to 8.0 per game. He's lost nearly half of his attempts over his last 12 games.

Meanwhile, he's shooting 50/44/83 and has seen his TS% go from .630 to .656 over that span. His PER and WS/48 have seen commensurate jumps, as his blocks and steals have increased while his turnovers have decreased from 5.3 per game to 3.8 per game.

He also hasn't missed any games (all season, in fact), and his team has gone 9-3 while his primary competitor for MVP has missed three games in that span - games that his team won by an average of 17.3 points without him.

Harden now has substantial leads in three cumulative advanced stats - Win Shares, Value Over Replacement Player, and PIPM Wins Added - and is second only to LeBron James in espn's RPM WINS.

The only question I have is for the guy who said Towns has moved into second for Most Valuable Player: why would you put him over Antetokounmpo?

Edrees · Post #2053 » by **Edrees** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:20 pm

90sAllDecade wrote:The Rockets have the lowest scoring bench in the league at 30th and the Bucks are ranked 7th right now:
https://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?StarterBench=Bench&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PTS&dir=-1

If you want to check Net rating for bench, the Bucks are third in the league, with Dallas, Clippers and Lakers all top 1-4 with Houston eighth:
https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?StarterBench=Bench&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

If you value PIE or Player Impact Estimate as a stat, the Bucks are second in the league with Houston 14th:
https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?StarterBench=Bench&sort=PIE&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

I would say yes, Milwakee and Giannis' supporting cast is arguably much better if you consider bench as well right now.

Bench net rating is a useless stat. Half of those stats are garbage time stats vs other teams 3rd stringers. The teams who's overall team (including starters) are good at blowing other teams out end up skewed because their bench players will be playing a sizable chunk of garbage time.

no way can a a team of Kuzma-Dwight-Rondo-KCP beat the Raptors bench. I can assure you we are only rated above them due to garbage time.

Yuri36 · Post #2054 » by **Yuri36** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:44 pm

LoneyROY wrote:Harden has taken it to another level with his efficiency lately.

Less FTs, higher efficiency. James killing narratives by the day.

I agree actually, Harden has played more effectively in last few games.

Freighttrain · Post #2055 » by **Freighttrain** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:53 pm

1. Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Luka
4. Harden

Luka would be ahead of LeBron if he didn't miss those games plus the Mavs did actually quite well in his absence, which shouldn't be to his detriment but in a weird way, it shows his team doesn't need him 'as much' as some of the other MVP candidates. The Bucks as a team are also being underrated, have they lost a game in which Giannis hasn't played?

scrabbarista · Post #2056 » by **scrabbarista** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:10 pm

as of the morning of Sunday, December 29th

13.4 - Harde, HOU
13.0 - Antet, MIL
11.1 - James, LAL
10.6 - Butle, MIA
9.8 - Doncic, DAL

9.8 - Gobert, UTA
9.4 - Jokic, DEN

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's still early enough in the season to see movement from game to game, and this has been especially true in the 5th-10th range. Nikola Jokic began December outside of the top 20, but has climbed all the way to 7th largely on the strength of quietly putting up a line of 23/8/10 on 54/48/83 splits while leading the Nuggets to win eight of their last nine games. 23/8/10 is also his line for all of December, but on lower percentages.

Four of the top five candidates had great games last night (Doncic jumped from 8th to 5th). Antetokounmpo missed his third game in December and second in a week, allowing Harden to retake the top spot - after a week in his customary second-place - by putting up 44/6/10/1/3 with just 3 turnovers on 17/27 from the field and a team-high +16 in a win.

Hakeemthegoat · Post #2057 » by **Hakeemthegoat** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:17 pm

Give me Harden any day over the Greek Travel.

jehosafats · Post #2058 » by **jehosafats** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:35 pm

Sulico wrote:Doncic had better game today than all other candidates.
One step closer to MVP.

I'm not yet sold on Doncic. His stats are always impressive and his team is winning. He plays with the flash of a guy whose been around professional players since a teen. All things working in his favor. Still, what's to say its anything more than a game of light and shadow? Many are quick to anoint him, but I'm reserving judgment until he makes a serious playoff run.

ShotCreator · Post #2059 » by **ShotCreator** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:55 pm

Luka has no case over Harden.

ShotCreator · Post #2060 » by **ShotCreator** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:59 pm

Amare_1_Knicks wrote:
Fico92 wrote:Bucks on pace for yet another double digit victory (led by 30) in a game without Giannis. Hell of a supporting cast he has, much better than most other MVP candidates.

I think they’re well-coached and know who they are. On paper they’re certainly not a world-beater supporting cast.

They literally are a world beater supporting cast.

Who is your pick for the 2019-20 MVP?