MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[Cavsfansince84]

I thought Harden is just chucking really inefficiently? You make it sound like the coach has restructured the team to lessen hardens role?


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If this question is to me his fga have been way down lately while WB's have gone up a lot. It seems they decided that WB needs to be more a focus of the offense and Harden isn't forcing his shot nearly as much. His last 8 games he's only gone over 20 fga twice while averaging 11 ftapg.

[Stillwater]

lol Kemba and Mitchel are not in the mvp conversation at all even if you take Giannis and Lebron out of it Luka has it by a mile.
I mean if you NEED 10 options put CP3 and Jokic on the list

[GiannisAnte34]

It seems that the best player in the game is showing what he can do if needed.
Kawhi is posting 34/7/5/3 on 50% from the field in the last 10 games.
Clippers went 8-2.
Overall he's played 35 games on 27/7.5/5/2 averages. Clippers are 27-8 with him on the court.

If(that's a big if) he doesn't miss more than 30 games going forward he definitely deserves mention.
The Clippers are 4 games behind the Lakers. It won't be easy to stay close(there's no chance to get the #1 seed) with George missing all those games but his abscense made the case for Kawhi tbh and will boost his chances against LeBron.
Head to head Kawhi dominated 2 times(for those of you interested in "national tv games" narrative)

His advanced stats aren't anywhere near the top5 in every category but he's top10-15 in almost every meaningful stat.
He's also climbing the PER rankings steadily(now 6th).
Certainly not MVP worthy for now but he can finish top3 easily.
If Harden keeps falling and the Mavs don't improve, he will surpass both Luka and Harden based on team rankings alone.
Gobert, Jokic, Butler, Davis will get mentions too but none of them has a chance.

As it stands it's a Giannis vs LeBron race.
If it was a vote for the best player, i think that Kawhi is the best player on the planet atm(with KD injured)

Best ability is availability. No player/star in the history of the NBA has had their bottom powdered as much as Kawhi and that is definitely a knock on his MVP candidacy. No MVP winner has ever missed 20 games or more

E/ except for Bill Walton in 77-78. He remains the only player in league history to win the MVP while missing 13 or more games... let alone missing 30 games

[Poohdini1]

It's Giannis, for the same reasons as last year, except he's shooting better from 3 and his team has somehow gotten better even after losing Brogdon.

[Infinite Llamas]

It seems that the best player in the game is showing what he can do if needed.
Kawhi is posting 34/7/5/3 on 50% from the field in the last 10 games.
Clippers went 8-2.
Overall he's played 35 games on 27/7.5/5/2 averages. Clippers are 27-8 with him on the court.

If(that's a big if) he doesn't miss more than 30 games going forward he definitely deserves mention.
The Clippers are 4 games behind the Lakers. It won't be easy to stay close(there's no chance to get the #1 seed) with George missing all those games but his abscense made the case for Kawhi tbh and will boost his chances against LeBron.
Head to head Kawhi dominated 2 times(for those of you interested in "national tv games" narrative)

His advanced stats aren't anywhere near the top5 in every category but he's top10-15 in almost every meaningful stat.
He's also climbing the PER rankings steadily(now 6th).
Certainly not MVP worthy for now but he can finish top3 easily.
If Harden keeps falling and the Mavs don't improve, he will surpass both Luka and Harden based on team rankings alone.
Gobert, Jokic, Butler, Davis will get mentions too but none of them has a chance.

As it stands it's a Giannis vs LeBron race.
If it was a vote for the best player, i think that Kawhi is the best player on the planet atm(with KD injured)

Best ability is availability. No player/star in the history of the NBA has had their bottom powdered as much as Kawhi and that is definitely a knock on his MVP candidacy. No MVP winner has ever missed 20 games or more

E/ except for Bill Walton in 77-78. He remains the only player in league history to win the MVP while missing 13 or more games... let alone missing 30 games

The season is more than half done and Kawhi has missed 11 games. Wtf is this talk of 30 games missed unless you have a crystal ball idk about

[scrabbarista]

Will post my rankings tomorrow morning. I'm 99% sure Giannis will still be in first place.

[GiannisAnte34]

It seems that the best player in the game is showing what he can do if needed.
Kawhi is posting 34/7/5/3 on 50% from the field in the last 10 games.
Clippers went 8-2.
Overall he's played 35 games on 27/7.5/5/2 averages. Clippers are 27-8 with him on the court.

If(that's a big if) he doesn't miss more than 30 games going forward he definitely deserves mention.
The Clippers are 4 games behind the Lakers. It won't be easy to stay close(there's no chance to get the #1 seed) with George missing all those games but his abscense made the case for Kawhi tbh and will boost his chances against LeBron.
Head to head Kawhi dominated 2 times(for those of you interested in "national tv games" narrative)

His advanced stats aren't anywhere near the top5 in every category but he's top10-15 in almost every meaningful stat.
He's also climbing the PER rankings steadily(now 6th).
Certainly not MVP worthy for now but he can finish top3 easily.
If Harden keeps falling and the Mavs don't improve, he will surpass both Luka and Harden based on team rankings alone.
Gobert, Jokic, Butler, Davis will get mentions too but none of them has a chance.

As it stands it's a Giannis vs LeBron race.
If it was a vote for the best player, i think that Kawhi is the best player on the planet atm(with KD injured)

Best ability is availability. No player/star in the history of the NBA has had their bottom powdered as much as Kawhi and that is definitely a knock on his MVP candidacy. No MVP winner has ever missed 20 games or more

E/ except for Bill Walton in 77-78. He remains the only player in league history to win the MVP while missing 13 or more games... let alone missing 30 games

The season is more than half done and Kawhi has missed 11 games. Wtf is this talk of 30 games missed unless you have a crystal ball idk about

"If(that's a big if) he doesn't miss more than 30 games" I quoted this by the original user, and you yourself can see this text in the quote you responded to. Either way, I've already stated that there has only been one MVP in the history of the NBA to miss 13 games or more, and Kawhi will certainly be above that mark. He simply doesn't have the production to justify being MVP even if he played the rest of the season.

[dygaction]

Will post my rankings tomorrow morning. I'm 99% sure Giannis will still be in first place.

you better make sure, otherwise change your formula or wait until next cycle to post..

[scrabbarista]

Will post my rankings tomorrow morning. I'm 99% sure Giannis will still be in first place.

you better make sure, otherwise change your formula or wait until next cycle to post..

[kane0801]

If portland has better record,Lillard should be MVP,he is carrying portland so hard

[BloodNinja]

Harden has scored below his average in the last 6 games and 3 of those games he scored under 20. 2 wins out of those 6 in that stretch. MVP chance is pretty much at zero now.

[KGtabake]

Harden has scored below his average in the last 6 games and 3 of those games he scored under 20. 2 wins out of those 6 in that stretch. MVP chance is pretty much at zero now.

What buffles me is that Westbrook is great lately. Literally the only reason to watch Houston rn.
But they can't win.

[scrabbarista]

as of the morning of January 30th

My spreadsheet still includes only 58 players. While some players (e.g., DeMar DeRozan, who will almost certainly get put in at some point) may be slipping through the cracks, I only have so much metaphorical bandwidth. It is, in fact, an honor even to be nominated.

Since last week:

TOP 5 RISERS
1. Damian Lillard +1.58 [team record 2-1]
2. Devin Booker +1.36 [2-1]
3. Hassan Whiteside +1.13 [2-1]
4. Kawhi Leonard +1.13 [2-0]
5. Dennis Schroeder +1.10 [3-1]

FALLERS
1. Nikola Vucevic -0.98 [team record 0-3]
2. James Harden -0.86 [2-2]
3. Andre Drummond -0.60 [0-4]
4. Derrick Rose -0.34 [0-4]
5. Bojan Bogdanovic -0.34 [1-2]

Devin Booker is in the RISERS for the second week in a row (4th last week, 2nd this week).
Nikola Vucevic returns to the FALLERS for the second consecutive week (5th and 1st, respectively).

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TOP TEN

1. 15.3 Antetokounmpo, MIL [since last week: even] [+0.16]
2. 14.5 Gobert, UTA [even] [0.00]
3. 13.8 James, LAL [+1] [+0.15]
4. 12.9 Harden, HOU [-1] [-0.86]
5. 12.0 Lillard, POR [+4] [+1.58]

6. 11.9 Leonard, LAC [+1] [+1.13]
7. 11.5 Doncic, DAL [-2] [-0.18]
8. 11.5 Butler, MIA [-2] [+0.08]
9. 11.0 Jokic, DEN [-1] [+0.27]
10. 10.3 Paul, OKC [even] [+0.57]

While he remains the clear MVP, the only conceivable argument against Antetokounmpo is a combination of the amount of help he's getting (the Bucks are +9.4 per100 with him off the court) and the weakness of the East. Said weakness is seen in eight of the top ten players being in the West. It's seen even more clearly in the East's 118-140 (.457) record against the West. Still, at this point that feels like grasping at straws.

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Zion Watch: 6.35 Williamson, NOP [+13] [+1.91]

Fun Facts: Zion's TS% is .637, his PER is 23.9, and his USG% is 28.6

[scrabbarista]

This thread should be pretty dead right now as far as who the actual MVP is - so far, of course!

The only real questions are:
1. Who else is in the top five?
2. What would it take for someone other than Antetokounmpo to win?

1. I see Lillard and Leonard making big pushes for the top five right now, Doncic slipping a bit, Harden spiraling downward, and Gobert still dominating as The Invisible Man. See my rankings for January 30th in the comment above.

2. James is Antetokounmpo's most legitimate competition for now. If the Bucks' final record starts with a "7" and the Lakers' starts with a "6," then it's probably out of reach. But if the Bucks falter and the Lakers make a push, putting the two teams within a few wins of each other (say, 69 for the Bucks and 66 for the Lakers), then I could see James sneaking in and - perhaps, deservedly - taking the Award. The Bucks are on pace for 71.5 and the Lakers are on pace for 64.2.

[greekbuck34]

I know Lebron is the MVP of the Lakers but it will definitely be a first if you give a guy the award with his second being:




It won't happen and the Bucks and Giannis won't even have to try. We load manage in game from the beginning of the season by playing hard for the first 3 quarters and that's usually enough to break most teams. If it's not Giannis and the rest of the starters will only play 3-4 minutes more to try to win the game and that's it. The Lakers and Lebron will have to kill themselves to push their stats and wins in a closer territory and they will simply not do it.

[SeniorWalker]

It is still.possible for LeBron to.win at this point. But the only way he will do it is if the Lakers finish with a better record than the bucks.

Giannis is a superior regular season player (imo he is now superior in general) to him and the fact that he doesnt have a Davis (who for some reason is being ignored despite being the leading scorer and clear best defender on the team, possibly a DPOY) even though he has a nice all around supporting cast, is going to give him a distinct advantage. The race isnt particularly close at the moment anyway.

[Colbinii]

I know Lebron is the MVP of the Lakers but it will definitely be a first if you give a guy the award with his second being:




It won't happen and the Bucks and Giannis won't even have to try. We load manage in game from the beginning of the season by playing hard for the first 3 quarters and that's usually enough to break most teams. If it's not Giannis and the rest of the starters will only play 3-4 minutes more to try to win the game and that's it. The Lakers and Lebron will have to kill themselves to push their stats and wins in a closer territory and they will simply not do it.

Ehh there have been other great second options.

[LikeABosh]

I know Lebron is the MVP of the Lakers but it will definitely be a first if you give a guy the award with his second being:

Kind of similar to Nash/Amare in 05. Without Marion, Amare would be the leader in the same categories.

[Barnzy]

I know Lebron is the MVP of the Lakers but it will definitely be a first if you give a guy the award with his second being:




It won't happen and the Bucks and Giannis won't even have to try. We load manage in game from the beginning of the season by playing hard for the first 3 quarters and that's usually enough to break most teams. If it's not Giannis and the rest of the starters will only play 3-4 minutes more to try to win the game and that's it. The Lakers and Lebron will have to kill themselves to push their stats and wins in a closer territory and they will simply not do it.

This is a stupid argument imo.

It doesn't matter what Davis is averaging. The Bucks have far better depth after the first two players.

Middleton just dropped 50 points and is averaging 20/6/4 in 29mins. Bledsoe is at 15.5/4/5 in 28 mins coming off 34 and 10 without Giannis. Then you've got Lopez, Hill etc balling. So Giannis having a beastly all around roster should punish him just as much if not more if you punish LeBron's chances for having Davis as a teammate.

Giannis is my MVP pick by the way. But because he's outplayed everyone. I've just seen what you said around a bit and it's a head scratcher.

[freethedevil]

It's obviously not (especially since the introduction of zone defense) as it's way harder to be a great scorer than to be a great defender.
Why do you think the ones who get paid the most are 99% of times far better scorers than defenders?

Teams rarely playing zone defense tho and for a player to expecting every time for someone else to cover his mistakes on defense is just bad in any case. being an elite defender have great value and impacting the game big. But for sure they will value more a fancy scorer or a great scorer, i don't agree with that but it is what it is.

What i said tho it's true, Defense is still the half and equal part of the game and being a player who can have big impact both ends of the floor is even more great than being just an offencive player.

The best players in the game will always be the 2-way players and that have nothing to do with how much money they earn.

Individual Defense isn’t half of the game, certainly not for perimeter players. I so much dislike that saying that derives from "defense is half the game as a team, so it must be true for each player". You can’t cover 5 people on defense, not even 2.

You can go in iso mode or have a higher usage rate and be responsible for 40% of the offense. It’s not equal for individual players.

The best defenders ever in the modern era have posted apm's of +5 to the +6 of the bes offensive players. Sure it's not equal, but a player can be a wastly worse attacker and be much better overall.

Offf course you're right about perimiter defenders, the best ever defenders their managed +2 impact, and most are barely worth noting.

Actng as if isolation isn't teammate-dependent is kind of hilarious tho.