MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

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Who is your pick for the 2019-20 MVP?

Giannis
237
61%
James
104
27%
Harden
11
3%
Leonard
2
1%
Doncic
13
3%
Jokic
4
1%
Tatum
4
1%
Davis
3
1%
Butler
2
1%
Siakam/Westbrook
8
2%
 
Total votes: 388

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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1401 » by boomershadow » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:29 pm

skones wrote:
boomershadow wrote:When Steph won his back to back MVPs, he had demonstrably raised his game to a level beyond what he had done the year before. Giannis is basically doing what he did last year and what people expect to see out of him for years to come. The MVP is a narrative award, and the Bucks, while successful, are pretty much about where they should be. Lebron raised his team from the lottery to the number 1 seed when there wasn't even clear consensus that the Lakers would make it back to the playoffs. And he IS the engine of that team. Don't let stats fool you.

Giannis has numbers that are a little bit better. If you think that makes him the MVP over Lebron, okay, but I don't think it does. It's not just a PPG award.


I can't believe this is even a post.

4.5 points more per 100 possessions, 2.6 rebounds more per 100 possessions. Impact numbers up across the board. Now let's dig in a little further to what really makes him the MVP and makes you look ignorant.

#1 DPIPM
#6 DRPM
#1 DRAPM
#1 DWS
#1 DBPM
Leading the a historically dominant defense.

Like are you serious? Going so far as to state it's "not just a ppg award?" If you want to believe the MVP is a narrative award, sure, it is. The problem here is the narrative that you're trying to push in this post is about as lame duck as it gets. "Lebron raised his team from the lottery to the number 1 seed?" That's what we call a false narrative. Frank Vogel, Anthony Davis, Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Dwight Howard. Those guys don't bring anything to the table that Luke Walton, Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Hart didn't. K.


Yeah. I'm serious. 4.5 ppg is the argument? Slightly better rebounder. Almost half the assists, which you didn't mention. Giannis is an amazing defender, too. No doubt about that.

Lebron may have one better teammate than anyone Giannis had, but top to bottom I'd say it's a wash or slightly favors Giannis. No team with AD, Dwight Howard, and Avery Bradley is going anywhere by themselves.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1402 » by skones » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:46 pm

boomershadow wrote:
skones wrote:
boomershadow wrote:When Steph won his back to back MVPs, he had demonstrably raised his game to a level beyond what he had done the year before. Giannis is basically doing what he did last year and what people expect to see out of him for years to come. The MVP is a narrative award, and the Bucks, while successful, are pretty much about where they should be. Lebron raised his team from the lottery to the number 1 seed when there wasn't even clear consensus that the Lakers would make it back to the playoffs. And he IS the engine of that team. Don't let stats fool you.

Giannis has numbers that are a little bit better. If you think that makes him the MVP over Lebron, okay, but I don't think it does. It's not just a PPG award.


I can't believe this is even a post.

4.5 points more per 100 possessions, 2.6 rebounds more per 100 possessions. Impact numbers up across the board. Now let's dig in a little further to what really makes him the MVP and makes you look ignorant.

#1 DPIPM
#6 DRPM
#1 DRAPM
#1 DWS
#1 DBPM
Leading the a historically dominant defense.

Like are you serious? Going so far as to state it's "not just a ppg award?" If you want to believe the MVP is a narrative award, sure, it is. The problem here is the narrative that you're trying to push in this post is about as lame duck as it gets. "Lebron raised his team from the lottery to the number 1 seed?" That's what we call a false narrative. Frank Vogel, Anthony Davis, Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Dwight Howard. Those guys don't bring anything to the table that Luke Walton, Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Hart didn't. K.


Yeah. I'm serious. 4.5 ppg is the argument? Slightly better rebounder. Almost half the assists, which you didn't mention. Giannis is an amazing defender, too. No doubt about that.

Lebron may have one better teammate than anyone Giannis had, but top to bottom I'd say it's a wash or slightly favors Giannis. No team with AD, Dwight Howard, and Avery Bradley is going anywhere by themselves.


I'm not sure if you understand how these numbers work. 4.5 more points per 100 possessions is a mammoth leap especially when considering the rate at which he was scoring last year. But yeah, that was the "argument" when I explicitly stated how his DPOY caliber play is what ultimately makes his case for MVP ironclad.

Meanwhile, you're sitting there like, "It's not a ppgzzzz award, because there is apgzzzz too!"

Feel free to play around with this TPA chart, and then take a peek at minutes played. https://nbamath.com/2019-20-nba-tpa/
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1403 » by boomershadow » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:54 pm

skones wrote:]
I'm not sure if you understand how these numbers work. 4.5 more points per 100 possessions is a mammoth leap especially when considering the rate at which he was scoring last year. But yeah, that was the "argument" when I explicitly stated how his DPOY caliber play is what ultimately makes his case for MVP ironclad.

Meanwhile, you're sitting there like, "It's not a ppgzzzz award, because there is apgzzzz too!"


No doubt Giannis is an elite defender, and that's a point to consider, but offense is often weighted more heavily in these types of MVP discussions. I definitely think assist rate is a thing to also take into consideration, when an extra 4.8 apg makes for 9.6 ppg even if they're only ever going to two's, and often they're kickouts for 3. That's pretty significant when considering both teams offenses revolve around both of them.

You don't have to agree with it, and probably Giannis will get the award if the results of this poll are indicative of how the voters will generally feel, but you can't act like the guy in second place doesn't have any arguments in his favor.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1404 » by German Athens » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:41 am

boomershadow wrote:
skones wrote:
boomershadow wrote:When Steph won his back to back MVPs, he had demonstrably raised his game to a level beyond what he had done the year before. Giannis is basically doing what he did last year and what people expect to see out of him for years to come. The MVP is a narrative award, and the Bucks, while successful, are pretty much about where they should be. Lebron raised his team from the lottery to the number 1 seed when there wasn't even clear consensus that the Lakers would make it back to the playoffs. And he IS the engine of that team. Don't let stats fool you.

Giannis has numbers that are a little bit better. If you think that makes him the MVP over Lebron, okay, but I don't think it does. It's not just a PPG award.


I can't believe this is even a post.

4.5 points more per 100 possessions, 2.6 rebounds more per 100 possessions. Impact numbers up across the board. Now let's dig in a little further to what really makes him the MVP and makes you look ignorant.

#1 DPIPM
#6 DRPM
#1 DRAPM
#1 DWS
#1 DBPM
Leading the a historically dominant defense.

Like are you serious? Going so far as to state it's "not just a ppg award?" If you want to believe the MVP is a narrative award, sure, it is. The problem here is the narrative that you're trying to push in this post is about as lame duck as it gets. "Lebron raised his team from the lottery to the number 1 seed?" That's what we call a false narrative. Frank Vogel, Anthony Davis, Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Dwight Howard. Those guys don't bring anything to the table that Luke Walton, Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Reggie Bullock, and Josh Hart didn't. K.


Yeah. I'm serious. 4.5 ppg is the argument? Slightly better rebounder. Almost half the assists, which you didn't mention. Giannis is an amazing defender, too. No doubt about that.

Lebron may have one better teammate than anyone Giannis had, but top to bottom I'd say it's a wash or slightly favors Giannis. No team with AD, Dwight Howard, and Avery Bradley is going anywhere by themselves.



Skones is saying Giannis is 4.5 pts per 100 over where he was last year. Giannis is actually 8.7 pts per 100 over lebron this year. Now, clearly, direct points aren’t the be all end all, so, with that, here’s an article from earlier in the year by the ringer to try to account for how many points a player is directly responsible for (including direct points, assists, and screen assists).

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2020/1/24/21079412/points-creation-giannis-antetokounmpo-luka-doncic-lebron-james

Admittedly, this is from much earlier in the year; however, It doesn’t appear the per game averages changed changed too significantly.

As with skones, this says nothing of Giannis defense which has been top notch this year.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1405 » by nikster » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:57 pm

boomershadow wrote:
skones wrote:]
I'm not sure if you understand how these numbers work. 4.5 more points per 100 possessions is a mammoth leap especially when considering the rate at which he was scoring last year. But yeah, that was the "argument" when I explicitly stated how his DPOY caliber play is what ultimately makes his case for MVP ironclad.

Meanwhile, you're sitting there like, "It's not a ppgzzzz award, because there is apgzzzz too!"


No doubt Giannis is an elite defender, and that's a point to consider, but offense is often weighted more heavily in these types of MVP discussions. I definitely think assist rate is a thing to also take into consideration, when an extra 4.8 apg makes for 9.6 ppg even if they're only ever going to two's, and often they're kickouts for 3. That's pretty significant when considering both teams offenses revolve around both of them.

You don't have to agree with it, and probably Giannis will get the award if the results of this poll are indicative of how the voters will generally feel, but you can't act like the guy in second place doesn't have any arguments in his favor.

NBA tracks that data. Lebron at 26.5 points off assists per game, Giannis at 15.4, for a difference of 11.1
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1406 » by skones » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:36 pm

boomershadow wrote:
skones wrote:]
I'm not sure if you understand how these numbers work. 4.5 more points per 100 possessions is a mammoth leap especially when considering the rate at which he was scoring last year. But yeah, that was the "argument" when I explicitly stated how his DPOY caliber play is what ultimately makes his case for MVP ironclad.

Meanwhile, you're sitting there like, "It's not a ppgzzzz award, because there is apgzzzz too!"


No doubt Giannis is an elite defender, and that's a point to consider, but offense is often weighted more heavily in these types of MVP discussions. I definitely think assist rate is a thing to also take into consideration, when an extra 4.8 apg makes for 9.6 ppg even if they're only ever going to two's, and often they're kickouts for 3. That's pretty significant when considering both teams offenses revolve around both of them.

You don't have to agree with it, and probably Giannis will get the award if the results of this poll are indicative of how the voters will generally feel, but you can't act like the guy in second place doesn't have any arguments in his favor.


Interesting that you've neglected to mention the TPA I pointed you to. For all of Lebron's offensive wizardry, he's added only 10 more points on the season than Giannis in 331 minutes more. Meanwhile, Giannis has saved 75.03 points more than Lebron on the OTHER side of the ball to create an absolutely astronomical gap between the two.

Sounds to me you're just unwilling to look at this objectively. First it's not a ppgzzzz award because there's apgzzzz, and now, well, defense, matters, but not like, a lot, because offense is weighted more. You're creating arbitrary parameters to fit your bogus case into and exclude Antetokounmpo's. Lebron doesn't create this massive gap on the offensive side of the ball between he and Giannis. Giannis creates a massive gap on the defensive side of the ball between he and Lebron. That's the differentiator.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1407 » by Infinite Llamas » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:55 am

32.3 to 37.4.

I don’t think people realize what an astronomical leap in USG that is for a player. Which would explain how Giannis raised his stats in less minutes while seeing a plunge in efficiency from the previous year.

The thing is, you can go balls to the wall and consume infinite possessions and defend like a mad man in a short period of court time that’ll raise many impact stars. But this method only works if the rest of your team is elite enough for the bench to raise the score when you’re on the bench...something that the Bucks bench excelled at. Not many teams can get away with resting their star so much because most teams aren’t as deep as the Bucks are. How many teams have a second option guy who shoots 50/40/90? Or a top-5 paint protector like Lopez? Or an RPM dream super sub like DiVincenzo?
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1408 » by AussieBuck » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:22 am

Infinite Llamas wrote:32.3 to 37.4.

I don’t think people realize what an astronomical leap in USG that is for a player. Which would explain how Giannis raised his stats in less minutes while seeing a plunge in efficiency from the previous year.

The thing is, you can go balls to the wall and consume infinite possessions and defend like a mad man in a short period of court time that’ll raise many impact stars. But this method only works if the rest of your team is elite enough for the bench to raise the score when you’re on the bench...something that the Bucks bench excelled at. Not many teams can get away with resting their star so much because most teams aren’t as deep as the Bucks are. How many teams have a second option guy who shoots 50/40/90? Or a top-5 paint protector like Lopez? Or an RPM dream super sub like DiVincenzo?

Bucks are +16 per 100 with Giannis, bench could be any randos and we'd be fine.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1409 » by Jaqua92 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:32 pm

Right now, I'd say Kevin Harvick.

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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1410 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:12 am

Infinite Llamas wrote:32.3 to 37.4.

I don’t think people realize what an astronomical leap in USG that is for a player. Which would explain how Giannis raised his stats in less minutes while seeing a plunge in efficiency from the previous year.

The thing is, you can go balls to the wall and consume infinite possessions and defend like a mad man in a short period of court time that’ll raise many impact stars. But this method only works if the rest of your team is elite enough for the bench to raise the score when you’re on the bench...something that the Bucks bench excelled at. Not many teams can get away with resting their star so much because most teams aren’t as deep as the Bucks are. How many teams have a second option guy who shoots 50/40/90? Or a top-5 paint protector like Lopez? Or an RPM dream super sub like DiVincenzo?

How many teams have AD as a #1 option let alone #2 option. DDV played 23 mpg and im guessing a decent portion was garbage time, lets not overstate his impact.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1411 » by OriginalRed » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:54 pm

The way the people in the media are so dismissive of AD despite him having arguably a better season than Lebron is mind boggling. Sure, we all know Lebron is far more vital to the Lakers success, but the team signed players designed to fit his play style and who don't need the ball, so I'm not surprised he's leading the league in assists when half of those just come from lobbing it to AD and Dwight.

Look at the game against the Bucks. Everyone was slopping over Lebron who "shut down" Giannis and scored 30 but forget AD played DPOY level defense as well AND scored 30 too lol.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1412 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:56 pm

Is there a site tracking votes again this year? Assume Giannis has this locked up but would like verification

ETA: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/edit#gid=337003795
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1413 » by Homer38 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:00 pm

OriginalRed wrote:The way the people in the media are so dismissive of AD despite him having arguably a better season than Lebron is mind boggling. Sure, we all know Lebron is far more vital to the Lakers success, but the team signed players designed to fit his play style and who don't need the ball, so I'm not surprised he's leading the league in assists when half of those just come from lobbing it to AD and Dwight.

Look at the game against the Bucks. Everyone was slopping over Lebron who "shut down" Giannis and scored 30 but forget AD played DPOY level defense as well AND scored 30 too lol.



Davis was in foul trouble in the first half in that game....Giannis was like 1-7 with LBJ guarded him in this game.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1414 » by Suprasc1 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:16 pm

Giannis almost broke his leg vs the Lakers and LeBron before the season got canceled. He would've been out the rest of the season until the playoffs... Lakers would have had the best record and LeBron dominated Giannis and Kawhi those two games before all this shutdown.

LeBron is the MVP
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1415 » by Oscar9992 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:59 pm

Lebron stans are may be the most delusional and subjective people out there.

Objectively Lebron has no argument over Giannis other than 1 good game he outplayed Giannis right before the lockdown. They tend to forget first game where Giannis destroyed Lakers with Lebron and AD.

Everything favours Giannis as unanimous MVP: Stats, Impact, Defence, Quality of Teammates etc.

Media makes it closer than it is ki$$ing Lebron's ass. Especially ESPN.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1416 » by Homer38 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:01 pm

Oscar9992 wrote:Lebron stans are may be the most delusional and subjective people out there.

Objectively Lebron has no argument over Giannis other than 1 good game he outplayed Giannis right before the lockdown. They tend to forget first game where Giannis destroyed Lakers with Lebron and AD.

Everything favours Giannis as unanimous MVP: Stats, Impact, Defence, Quality of Teammates etc.

Media makes it closer than it is ki$$ing Lebron's ass. Especially ESPN.


I voted for Giannis and I often say that Giannis was the MVP, so I don't understand your ridiculous attacks.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1417 » by Oscar9992 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:06 pm

Lebron stans claim he should have more than 4 MVPs. But what are those seasons?

Rose had better regular season in 2010-11, KD in 2013-14, Curry and Harden in 2014-15, Curry again 2015-16, Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi in 2016-17, Harden in 2017-18, Harden and Giannis in 2018-19, Giannis in 2019-20.

There was always some player who had better regular season deserved MVP more than Lebron.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1418 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:22 pm

Not a Lebron stan, but anyone who thinks Lebron was only the most valuable player in the league 4x is fooling themselves. And look no further that starting a defense of the indefensible by citing Derrick Rose....
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1419 » by ken6199 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 pm

Suprasc1 wrote:Giannis almost broke his leg vs the Lakers and LeBron before the season got canceled. He would've been out the rest of the season until the playoffs... Lakers would have had the best record and LeBron dominated Giannis and Kawhi those two games before all this shutdown.

LeBron is the MVP


That's not true. At the time it looked like a 2 week off time for Giannis maybe another 2 weeks for ease-in, though I agree that Lakers and LeBron were both on a roll and LeBron would be most likely leading this race at this point if Giannis went out for those 2 weeks. We all know how media and narrative work.

Sucks for LeBron fans yeah, but that's life. If Giannis ended up wining this thing you cannot say he didn't deserve it or got lucky with the hiatus. The guy earned it.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened 

Post#1420 » by Suprasc1 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:42 pm

ken6199 wrote:
Suprasc1 wrote:Giannis almost broke his leg vs the Lakers and LeBron before the season got canceled. He would've been out the rest of the season until the playoffs... Lakers would have had the best record and LeBron dominated Giannis and Kawhi those two games before all this shutdown.

LeBron is the MVP


That's not true. At the time it looked like a 2 week off time for Giannis maybe another 2 weeks for ease-in, though I agree that Lakers and LeBron were both on a roll and LeBron would be most likely leading this race at this point if Giannis went out for those 2 weeks. We all know how media and narrative work.

Sucks for LeBron fans yeah, but that's life. If Giannis ended up wining this thing you cannot say he didn't deserve it or got lucky with the hiatus. The guy earned it.


So it should be LeBron being the MVP

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