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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 1:04 am
by Infinite Llamas
greekbuck34 wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
SeniorWalker wrote:I need some convincing that Jokic is the better offensive player. He may very well be more skilled in some areas but that alone does not mean he is more effective offensively. Giannis commands 5 players everytime he steps in the paint and still scores anyway at a very high clip. PER isnt a great modern stat but it is indicative of overall raw offensive contributions and Giannis right now has the highest of all time.


Just my opinion. Giannis may become the better offensive player but I see some flaws when I watch him. No I’m between game. Poor free throw shooter. Bad shot mechanics. Good but not great court vision. I still sense some hesitation in him at times too.

I’m not saying that he isn’t a fantastic player because he is, but these are just my observations. Jokic has no real weaknesses on offense. He can beat you in so many ways and not just with his shot but his vision.

What was that Sean Bean line from the first show of Game of Thrones? “A mad man sees what he sees”. Maybe I’m mad, but this is just what I see.


If Jokic has no real weaknesses and is unstoppable why then he doesn't average 30 points per 30 minutes on better efficiency and/or lead a top 2 offense in the NBA with his passing, presence and gravity?

He is 20ppg player for the second season in a row and the Nuggets have the 10th best offense and he doesn't even give 1/4 of the effort of Giannis on defense on top of that.


I never used the word unstoppable. The thing is, Jokic is a pass first guy and that means he will trust his teammates no matter what. Gary Harris shot 0-13 last night and Jokic kept feeding him. He doesn’t call his own number unless he sees it as the biggest advantage for his team. Of course Giannis will have higher per 30 numbers. His Usage % is over ten points higher than Jokic...and yes, Giannis makes efficient work with these possessions but he’s also cramming about 35-38 minutes of a workload into 30 minutes. He gets hacked a lot, relies on a lot of quick moves to get to the rim...he takes a pounding every game and it’s logical to wonder if he will wear down with more minutes in a tough playoff matchup. Jokic paces himself because that’s how he can play big minutes and still be so effective.

Call me a fool all you like, but these discourse posts of y’all explaining why Giannis is mvp are a lot more worthwhile than the usual “let’s call it now” “Giannis and the rest ain’t even close” “Giannis just running away with it”...

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 3:21 am
by Jazz9
Honestly there's no need for this thread anymore.
The MVP is Giannis and that's it.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 3:26 am
by Young gun 6
This should end up being a unanimous MVP when the votes come in.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 3:34 am
by jimmybones
Yeah, at this point “discussion” is almost a kinda silly title. It’s Giannis.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 3:47 am
by The Lazy Potato
At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 3:50 am
by Jurassic_Park
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


they're called lebron fans... apparently he deserves the mvp every year..

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:00 am
by Infinite Llamas
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:03 am
by The Lazy Potato
Infinite Llamas wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.


You still don't want to get it. It's about the whole season not just one or few games. Giannis is playing historically amazing the whole season so far, you can't say the same thing for anyone else..

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:08 am
by Infinite Llamas
The Lazy Potato wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.


You still don't want to get it. It's about the whole season not just one or few games. Giannis is playing historically amazing the whole season so far, you can't say the same thing for anyone else..


I’ve seen worse hills to die on tbh

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 5:57 am
by HotRocks34
Young gun 6 wrote:This should end up being a unanimous MVP when the votes come in.



Looks like we're heading to that ending.

You never know, though. There's always the person or people who want to be clowns. Like the person who denied Jeter the unanimous Hall Of Fame entry.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 6:02 am
by Jurassic_Park
who has a bigger lead, morant for ROY, or Giannis for MVP? both races are done.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:14 am
by LikeABosh
Jurassic_Park wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


they're called lebron fans... apparently he deserves the mvp every year..


Big LeBron fan. Haven't voted for him since his last MVP season

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:14 am
by LikeABosh
Infinite Llamas wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.


Why?

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 8:10 am
by BMatt07
Infinite Llamas wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.


Obviously the transitive property doesn't apply to the NBA, but Giannis did put up 43/14/8/2 on Gobert last year in March, just saying. Lol.

Jokic a better offensive player than Giannis.... come on man.

Image

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 9:16 am
by Fico92
The Lazy Potato wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:At this point i will say that for those who didn't vote Giannis for MVP i want their names. They deserve some recognition as trolls.


Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.


You still don't want to get it. It's about the whole season not just one or few games. Giannis is playing historically amazing the whole season so far, you can't say the same thing for anyone else..


Assuming the Bucks stay healthy, anything short of a championship would be a MASSIVE disappointment, especially if Giannis is unanimous MVP. Agree?

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 9:41 am
by Jez2983
Fico92 wrote:
The Lazy Potato wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
Lol.

30/20/10 vs Gobert is a lot more impressive than 36/20/6 vs Embiid.


You still don't want to get it. It's about the whole season not just one or few games. Giannis is playing historically amazing the whole season so far, you can't say the same thing for anyone else..


Assuming the Bucks stay healthy, anything short of a championship would be a MASSIVE disappointment, especially if Giannis is unanimous MVP. Agree?


As a Bucks fan, I can say a definite yes. If we don't win I'll be disappointed.

What I am not saying is that I expect us to win. There's a long way to go this season, and a number of very good teams in the NBA. No one is ever handed a championship. The West contain a number of teams that can be unstoppable. The Celtics and Raptors are very good teams too, saying nothing of whether the Sixers figure it out.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 9:58 am
by GusT15
Fico92 wrote:
Assuming the Bucks stay healthy, anything short of a championship would be a MASSIVE disappointment, especially if Giannis is unanimous MVP. Agree?


To chime in,anything short of a trip to the Finals would be a MASSIVE disappointment for the Bucks this year.

Clippers are still the favorite though,the team to beat,even if Giannis is unanimous MVP.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 10:24 am
by Pachinko_
Infinite Llamas wrote:Just my opinion. Giannis may become the better offensive player but I see some flaws when I watch him. No I’m between game. Poor free throw shooter. Bad shot mechanics. Good but not great court vision. I still sense some hesitation in him at times too.

I’m not saying that he isn’t a fantastic player because he is, but these are just my observations. Jokic has no real weaknesses on offense. He can beat you in so many ways and not just with his shot but his vision.

What was that Sean Bean line from the first show of Game of Thrones? “A mad man sees what he sees”. Maybe I’m mad, but this is just what I see.

I get what you're saying and I agree.
I think the piece of the puzzle you're missing is Gianni's motor which allows him to have a higher intensity over long stretches, which is essentially where he catches up to jokic offensively. Just the way he pushes the ball off the rebound catches defenses unorganized and then he powers through them and basically destroys them bit by bit. It's basically everything that is good about Westbrook and Simmons in a bigger package.

You are right, when everybody's had time to set up? I'd take Jokic too. But basketball is not played like that all the time.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 10:53 am
by Perseus1966
Cant teach height cant beat the refs ,so no dissapointment.

Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

Posted: Fri Feb 7, 2020 1:00 pm
by Infinite Llamas
Pachinko_ wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:Just my opinion. Giannis may become the better offensive player but I see some flaws when I watch him. No I’m between game. Poor free throw shooter. Bad shot mechanics. Good but not great court vision. I still sense some hesitation in him at times too.

I’m not saying that he isn’t a fantastic player because he is, but these are just my observations. Jokic has no real weaknesses on offense. He can beat you in so many ways and not just with his shot but his vision.

What was that Sean Bean line from the first show of Game of Thrones? “A mad man sees what he sees”. Maybe I’m mad, but this is just what I see.

I get what you're saying and I agree.
I think the piece of the puzzle you're missing is Gianni's motor which allows him to have a higher intensity over long stretches, which is essentially where he catches up to jokic offensively. Just the way he pushes the ball off the rebound catches defenses unorganized and then he powers through them and basically destroys them bit by bit. It's basically everything that is good about Westbrook and Simmons in a bigger package.

You are right, when everybody's had time to set up? I'd take Jokic too. But basketball is not played like that all the time.


Best analysis I’ve seen, thank you