MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[scrabbarista]

morning of January 4th

Top 10 Today

14.4 Hard, HOU
13.4 Ante, MIL
12.1 Jame, LAL
11.0 Butl, MIA
10.4 Donc, DAL

10.0 Gobe, UTA
9.7 Leona, LAC
9.7 Davis, LAL
9.5 Jokic, DEN
9.3 Lilla, POR

[limbo]

So... If Anthony Davis is not the best player on the Lakers, is he the greatest 2nd fiddle of all-time?

Man is averaging 28/10/3 on 61%TS and DPOY defense.

[The Lazy Potato]

Some of you casual fans (specially americans) forgeting that defense is the half and equal part of the game. And the only real MVP contender that plays on elite level both ends of the floor is Giannis. Harden and Luka are bad/average defenders and this is not something that you should ignoring when we are talking about who is the MVP.

Wow, thank you so much. I always wondered why all of those guys were running around when their team didn't even have the ball. Everything makes so much more sense now. I'm going to go tell my American friends right away! Might be gone for awhile, it's a big country.

Besides the sarcasm, you know i am right on this tho..

[The Lazy Potato]

So... If Anthony Davis is not the best player on the Lakers, is he the greatest 2nd fiddle of all-time?

Man is averaging 28/10/3 on 61%TS and DPOY defense.

Both Lebron and AD canseling each other from the MVP race because they are both top-5 players in the league and playing on the same team. And AD is not the DPOY for sure, Giannis is a better defender than him and he can literally guard all 5 positions something that AD can't do.

[DutchManDanFan]

I guess PPGzzzz and TS% are the only things that matter. We'll just handwave away someone who is putting up an All Time Season on a Historic team with possibly 0 other All Stars who scores almost as much as Harden and more than overcomes any difference on the Offensive end by being a Vastly, Vastly Superior Defensive player.

"Historic team with possibly 0 all-stars". You realize dude's team is playing incredible ball when he's on the bench at about +8.8 per 100 possessions. Giannis is incredible, but his argument should be his play, not his team performence.

The Bucks bench is very deep, that's why they outscore opponents benches when Giannis sits. But without Giannis they won't win much against elite teams. And they won't win everything against the < .500 teams, like they do now. That makes it a 45 win team max. And 0 all stars.

[MrPerfect1]

I guess PPGzzzz and TS% are the only things that matter. We'll just handwave away someone who is putting up an All Time Season on a Historic team with possibly 0 other All Stars who scores almost as much as Harden and more than overcomes any difference on the Offensive end by being a Vastly, Vastly Superior Defensive player.

"Historic team with possibly 0 all-stars". You realize dude's team is playing incredible ball when he's on the bench at about +8.8 per 100 possessions. Giannis is incredible, but his argument should be his play, not his team performence.

The Bucks bench is very deep, that's why they outscore opponents benches when Giannis sits. But without Giannis they won't win much against elite teams. And they won't win everything against the < .500 teams, like they do now. That makes it a 45 win team max. And 0 all stars.

Without Giannis they would likely be a 38 or so win team or so. There is a vast difference in playing with little pressure up by 20 vs having to play every night without even 1 All Star.

I can't fathom how people can reconcile the following. There is a massive chasm Defensively between Giannis and Harden. Any Offensive gap is far, far, far narrower than the Defensive Chasm.

(I understand that for some people that Giannis would be "more valuable" if he played more minutes in blowouts so the Bucks could win by 25 instead of 15.
Or, a truly valuable player would rest on defense so that they could keep playing in close games to inflate their Offensive numbers)

[CptCrunch]

"Historic team with possibly 0 all-stars". You realize dude's team is playing incredible ball when he's on the bench at about +8.8 per 100 possessions. Giannis is incredible, but his argument should be his play, not his team performence.

The Bucks bench is very deep, that's why they outscore opponents benches when Giannis sits. But without Giannis they won't win much against elite teams. And they won't win everything against the < .500 teams, like they do now. That makes it a 45 win team max. And 0 all stars.

Without Giannis they would likely be a 38 or so win team or so. There is a vast difference in playing with little pressure up by 20 vs having to play every night without even 1 All Star.

I can't fathom how people can reconcile the following. There is a massive chasm Defensively between Giannis and Harden. Any Offensive gap is far, far, far narrower than the Defensive Chasm.

(I understand that for some people that Giannis would be "more valuable" if he played more minutes in blowouts so the Bucks could win by 25 instead of 15.
Or, a truly valuable player would rest on defense so that they could keep playing in close games to inflate their Offensive numbers)

The difference on offense is titanic, incomparable.

The difference on defense is minor. Harden is a very elite defender. If you can't see that you are either not watching basketball or not looking at the advanced stats.

Please stop with the misleading narrative. MVP these days have sadly become the MFP, Medias Favorite Player.

#Disgace

[mademan]

"Historic team with possibly 0 all-stars". You realize dude's team is playing incredible ball when he's on the bench at about +8.8 per 100 possessions. Giannis is incredible, but his argument should be his play, not his team performence.

The Bucks bench is very deep, that's why they outscore opponents benches when Giannis sits. But without Giannis they won't win much against elite teams. And they won't win everything against the < .500 teams, like they do now. That makes it a 45 win team max. And 0 all stars.

Without Giannis they would likely be a 38 or so win team or so. There is a vast difference in playing with little pressure up by 20 vs having to play every night without even 1 All Star.

I can't fathom how people can reconcile the following. There is a massive chasm Defensively between Giannis and Harden. Any Offensive gap is far, far, far narrower than the Defensive Chasm.

(I understand that for some people that Giannis would be "more valuable" if he played more minutes in blowouts so the Bucks could win by 25 instead of 15.
Or, a truly valuable player would rest on defense so that they could keep playing in close games to inflate their Offensive numbers)

This was the Steph Curry argument. The point is Harden's offense is so much better that the defense doesnt close the gap. It's why Harden is crushing Giannis in every impact stat on a team thats been injury riddled and has like 4 total good players

[DutchManDanFan]

Please stop with the misleading narrative. MVP these days have sadly become the MFP, Medias Favorite Player.

Not true. MFP would be LeBron or AD.

[CptCrunch]

Please stop with the misleading narrative. MVP these days have sadly become the MFP, Medias Favorite Player.

Not true. MFP would be LeBron or AD.

Media's darlings are: Luka, LeBron and Giannis. The former two have no case so Giannis is the winner by default.

[fchowd0311]

Damn this message board REALLY hates Harden. How is he third in the poll?

Even objective metrics such as basketball reference MVP tracker has Gainnis and Harden as the runaway top two choices.

[KGtabake]

Damn this message board REALLY hates Harden. How is he third in the poll?

Even objective metrics such as basketball reference MVP tracker has Gainnis and Harden as the runaway top two choices.

Basically there are giannis haters too on comments. LeBron has haters for 17 years.
Only Luka is getting a pass so far

[old skool]

Based on the season to date, Antetokounmpo looks to be the front runner for MVP. He has won Eastern Conference Player of the Month in both November and December. Last season he won that award every month except January.

[ShotCreator]

Rofl at the idea that a team with 0 All Stars would be capable of winning anywhere near 60 games. I'd bet anything this has never happened before in league history and never even come close

Mike Budenholzer coached both teams.

13/14 Spurs, 14/15 Hawks.

And Khris Middleton this year is better than anyone on those teams.

The 2014 spurs is one of the best teams ever.
And Khris Middleton has never been better than Al Horford or Paul Millsap.
The Hawks had 4 all stars that year. I seriously doubt if the bucks will ever have that. Some of you need to relax with your agendas and give credit where its due.

Lol Jeff Teague is worse than Bledsoe at every facet of basketball.

Korver we peaked high, but only within the context of great scheming from Bud. He’s doing that for Hill and Ilyasova right now.

Millsap and Horford were the ****, but Middleton is playing the best defense he has since 2015, and his offensive season. Basically he’s peaking out there.

Besides that they are loaded with athletes and shooters.

There is no agenda. I genuinely believe this. Milwaukee would absolutely not stop playing good offense and great defense without Giannis. Nothing backs up they wouldn’t.

[ShotCreator]

Harden is playing incomprehensibly good this year.

He is legitimately a CLEAR positive on defense on top of what he does on offense.


And I used to roll my eyes when people said he played good defense in any year other than this one.

He was a slight negative from 17-19. This is different. He’s their best wing defender after Tucker and House is no slouch.

[Dupp]

So... If Anthony Davis is not the best player on the Lakers, is he the greatest 2nd fiddle of all-time?

Man is averaging 28/10/3 on 61%TS and DPOY defense.

Hard to say exactly who the best player is. Davis is so good and leads the teams in so many areas. On the other hand the team falls apart without lebron. Would be clearer if they had a more competent backup guard than rondo.



As for your question it’s gotta be magic / Kareem and then Kobe right? Oscar maybe a similar level or slightly below.

[Dupp]

Also poor harden. Dude playing goat level again and probably not even being considered by the media.

[KGtabake]

Mike Budenholzer coached both teams.

13/14 Spurs, 14/15 Hawks.

And Khris Middleton this year is better than anyone on those teams.

The 2014 spurs is one of the best teams ever.
And Khris Middleton has never been better than Al Horford or Paul Millsap.
The Hawks had 4 all stars that year. I seriously doubt if the bucks will ever have that. Some of you need to relax with your agendas and give credit where its due.

Lol Jeff Teague is worse than Bledsoe at every facet of basketball.

Korver we peaked high, but only within the context of great scheming from Bud. He’s doing that for Hill and Ilyasova right now.

Millsap and Horford were the ****, but Middleton is playing the best defense he has since 2015, and his offensive season. Basically he’s peaking out there.

Besides that they are loaded with athletes and shooters.

There is no agenda. I genuinely believe this. Milwaukee would absolutely not stop playing good offense and great defense without Giannis. Nothing backs up they wouldn’t.

From the game logs checked in bball reference the last 2 seasons:
They were 4-6 last season without him and 3-0 so far this season. The 3 teams they beat this season are Cleveland, Orlando, New Orleans(at home).
That's the sample. That's a total of 7-6 in the last 2 seasons under Budenholzer.
Nobody said that the Bucks would have been bad without him.
Nobody said that they would have been a 60 win team as well though. To me they would have been the 7th seed easily(with Brooklyn's injuries)
I repeat, you said they would have won 60 games even without him.
If that's not an agenda against him, then what is it?

You make it seem like there are enough players in the league who can make a system like the one Budenholzer runs an easy thing.
Without Giannis every Ilyasova, Korver, Mirotic, Middleton or any other shooter you have in mind doesn't have the space to execute.
Lopez wasn't shooting a ton of 3s for 9 years. Suddenly he became a big who can shot 10 3s out of nowhere. Who makes this possible? How many players can draw the kind of attention that Giannis draws?
Take a look at this for example:


Do you see how much space middleton, ilyasova or connoghton have? And if he gets by Baynes(i think it's him) he will draw Kyrie too, leaving Hill wide open in the corner. That's literally 5 players monitored on him.
Without Giannis every good team in the league(and no, none of orlando, cleveland, pelicans is considered a good team atm) doesn't have a reason to leave these guys open.

And peak Horford and peak Millsap are better players than peak Middleton. I can't convince you otherwise but i don't have to either way. We agree to disagree i guess.

[Young gun 6]

Kawhi getting absolutely murdered by Crowder.

[limbo]

Kawhi getting absolutely murdered by Crowder.

Crowder picked a nice time to have a career game. 27/8/7, 3 blks, 3 stls and 0 TO in 27 minutes, lol.