Honest question about Tatum

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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#21 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:38 am

HoopsterJones wrote:
ccie8030 wrote:
BodieB wrote:If he ends the season the ways he's played in 2020 there should be no doubt.


Tatum = slightly better version of Rudy Gay


Rich man’s Rudy Gay. Spot on.


:noway: Rudy Gay is a elite defender and outside shooter so let's not get crazy here.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#22 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:48 am

HoopsterJones wrote::wink:
BillTheGOAT wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:He would need to get his PER above 20 for starters (PER above 24 is top 10 territory).

Let’s see if he can keep up his production against better teams too.
Enes Kanter has a PER of 23.8 so thanks for confirming Kanter is a top 10 player.


25 PER is top 10, look it up. Kanter doesn’t qualify also because of only averaging 18.9 MPG.

Tatum is sitting at 19.5 PER. That’s not top 10.


Whiteside plays near 30 a night and is top ten, Young and Harrell are top 15. Honestly I wouldn't use PER either as players beinfit from a high usg. I don't think there's one stats that you can weigh heavily. As for Tatum, I don't think even if he continues his current play he'll be in the conversation, he still makes boneheaded plays young players do. Only somone like Doncic can be that young and disciplined to the point he's never reallya negative at any time.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#23 » by CoP » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:48 am

celticfan42487 wrote:Same defense

25+ ppg 8+ rpg 8+ aspg 45+ fg 38+ 3point 89+ FT

No one in the league has that this season. In fact, not one player has had that in the 3pt era
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#24 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:52 am

CoP wrote:
celticfan42487 wrote:Same defense

25+ ppg 8+ rpg 8+ aspg 45+ fg 38+ 3point 89+ FT

No one in the league has that this season


I dont believe anyone has had that kind of offensive season ever, let alone doing that plus Tatum's defense.

According to BBR, only players to ever have a 25/8/8 season

LeBron (3x)
Harden
Westbrook (2x)
MJ
Luka (currently this season)

MJ is the only guy to have that season with a FT% above 85% (he shot 85%). LeBron is the only guy to shoot above 35% from 3 during a season like that (shot 36% 2x). So ya if he were to have that season, plus his defense. You could make the argument it would be the most well rounded season ever by a wing player.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#25 » by CoP » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:54 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
CoP wrote:
celticfan42487 wrote:Same defense

25+ ppg 8+ rpg 8+ aspg 45+ fg 38+ 3point 89+ FT

No one in the league has that this season


I dont believe anyone has had that kind of offensive season ever, let alone doing that plus Tatum's defense.

Yeah I just edited my post after searching further back
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#26 » by HoopsterJones » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:58 am

Patsfan1081 wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote::wink:
BillTheGOAT wrote:Enes Kanter has a PER of 23.8 so thanks for confirming Kanter is a top 10 player.


25 PER is top 10, look it up. Kanter doesn’t qualify also because of only averaging 18.9 MPG.

Tatum is sitting at 19.5 PER. That’s not top 10.


Whiteside plays near 30 a night and is top ten, Young and Harrell are top 15. Honestly I wouldn't use PER either as players beinfit from a high usg. I don't think there's one stats that you can weigh heavily. As for Tatum, I don't think even if he continues his current play he'll be in the conversation, he still makes boneheaded plays young players do. Only somone like Doncic can be that young and disciplined to the point he's never reallya negative at any time.


PER isn’t a perfect catchall, however it’s a pretty accurate indicator. The only two in the top 10 in PER that shouldn’t be considered a top 10 player right now are KAT and Irving. A healthy Durant and Curry rounds out the top 10 in place of them IMO.

1. Giannis
2. Doncic
3. Harden
4. AD
5. Lillard
6. KAT
7. Kawhi
8. Irving
9. Lebron
10. Jokic

Tatum isn’t even in the top 50 in PER. But he is on the right trajectory to being a top 10ish player in the near future.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#27 » by The Comedian » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:02 am

CoP wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
CoP wrote:No one in the league has that this season


I dont believe anyone has had that kind of offensive season ever, let alone doing that plus Tatum's defense.

Yeah I just edited my post after searching further back


Maybe he meant top 10 ever lol? Cause damn if that's what the cutoff is for being a normal top 10 player in the league, i haven't seen many top 10 players.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#28 » by celticfan42487 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:04 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
CoP wrote:
celticfan42487 wrote:Same defense

25+ ppg 8+ rpg 8+ aspg 45+ fg 38+ 3point 89+ FT

No one in the league has that this season


I dont believe anyone has had that kind of offensive season ever, let alone doing that plus Tatum's defense.

According to BBR, only players to ever have a 25/8/8 season

LeBron (3x)
Harden
Westbrook (2x)
MJ
Luka (currently this season)

MJ is the only guy to have that season with a FT% above 85% (he shot 85%). LeBron is the only guy to shoot above 35% from 3 during a season like that (shot 36% 2x). So ya if he were to have that season, plus his defense. You could make the argument it would be the most well rounded season ever by a wing player.


Well he's putting up

22 ppg 7 rpg 3 aspg on 44% fg 39% 3 83.5% fg

Perhaps his FT% never increases, but either his PPG or ASPG has to go up if he gains enough ball control to be the engine to an offense the way Kemba is current or a Doncic, Harden, LeBron is to their team. If he is to improve that's the only realistic place it will improve.

'top 10' is realtive but I assumed the OP meant to be unquestioned top 10 not "maybe" or "I could argue he is"

So what would you look for to rank him top 10, is it just lowering the ASPG to 5+ and the FT to 85%?
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#29 » by Curmudgeon » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:04 am

Numbers are secondary. He has to prove he can perform on the big stage, make crucial plays at both ends deep in the playoffs and win a championship or two.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#30 » by SF_Warriors » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:09 am

Top 10 is not easy to break..he would need a minimum 26-27 ppg with 59+% TS and pretty darn good defense, and sustain for at least a couple of seasons, and of course win games...just to be considered.

If he can get to 28ppg range with 59% TS and good defense I think that would do it for a good amount of people.

Alternatively, if he can b ethe leading scorer on a team with a top three record and no other all star help..these are all generalities
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#31 » by MrPerfect1 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:15 am

People say "Top 10" too casually.

You are really asking "Whst does Tatum need to do before he is better than Jokic, better than Embiid, etc).

He is still a good distance from being the Clear Cut #1 Option that drives the bus and is clearly the 1st player on the team opponents gameplan against and focus on.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#32 » by Eisenhorn1976 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:26 am

HoopsterJones wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote::wink:

25 PER is top 10, look it up. Kanter doesn’t qualify also because of only averaging 18.9 MPG.

Tatum is sitting at 19.5 PER. That’s not top 10.


Whiteside plays near 30 a night and is top ten, Young and Harrell are top 15. Honestly I wouldn't use PER either as players beinfit from a high usg. I don't think there's one stats that you can weigh heavily. As for Tatum, I don't think even if he continues his current play he'll be in the conversation, he still makes boneheaded plays young players do. Only somone like Doncic can be that young and disciplined to the point he's never reallya negative at any time.


PER isn’t a perfect catchall, however it’s a pretty accurate indicator. The only two in the top 10 in PER that shouldn’t be considered a top 10 player right now are KAT and Irving. A healthy Durant and Curry rounds out the top 10 in place of them IMO.

1. Giannis
2. Doncic
3. Harden
4. AD
5. Lillard
6. KAT
7. Kawhi
8. Irving
9. Lebron
10. Jokic

Tatum isn’t even in the top 50 in PER. But he is on the right trajectory to being a top 10ish player in the near future.


PER is rubbish. Any stat that rewards you for inefficiency shouldn’t be paid attention to. Even its creator, Hollinger, has admitted there are better metrics out there.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#33 » by zimpy27 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:36 am

Leaving out Tatum for these lists:

Top 10 could be Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Davis, Embiid, Doncic, Jokic, Harden, KAT, Lillard

Then in next 15 could be Butler, Trae, Gobert, PG13, Siakam, Simmons, CP3, Middleton, Kemba, Middleton, Jrue, Lowry, Beal, Durant (healthy), Nurkic (healthy)

Who do you have Tatum above from this list of 25?
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#34 » by JShuttlesworth » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:59 am

I think the way I view players in terms of overall ranking largely comes from consistency over an extended period of time. I'm slow to overreact during a players breakout year, it really takes 2-3 years of playing at an All-Star level before I really start to take notice. You've also got to translate talent to wins and playoff success. Boston is setup well for future success right now so that all looks great.

Tatum is playing well, if he keeps up his trajectory he's going to be one of the best wing players in the league not too far down the road. He's not even 22 yet, that's crazy. Boston is going to be in good hands - What a fantastic pick.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#35 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:02 am

zimpy27 wrote:Leaving out Tatum for these lists:

Top 10 could be Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Davis, Embiid, Doncic, Jokic, Harden, KAT, Lillard

Then in next 15 could be Butler, Trae, Gobert, PG13, Siakam, Simmons, CP3, Middleton, Kemba, Middleton, Jrue, Lowry, Beal, Durant (healthy), Nurkic (healthy)

Who do you have Tatum above from this list of 25?


Trae, Siakam, Middleton, Kemba, Jrue, Beal, Lowry, Nurkic
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#36 » by Pennebaker » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:11 am

jdm_dc_fan wrote:Tatum was named player of the week in the east. His numbers were 30/7/4 50%FG 54% 3PT with amazing defense. With Tatums defense taken into account also his offensive output and versatility blossoming and a true 6’8” wing; What numbers would Tatum need to put up on a playoff team to be considered a top ten player? Boston being a top 2-3 team in the east with impact of winning not inflated stats on a losing team.

What do you need Tatum to do to be in the top 10?


Well Tatum currently averages 22.2 points, 2.9 assists with a 19.5 PER.

He'd have to get up to like 27 ppg, 6 assists and a 27 PER.

That's a long way to go... he'd have to make a major jump.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#37 » by KonKrete » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:14 am

per 36:

24+ppg 7+rbpg 5+aspg 50/40/90+shooting. A TS% of .625+ A OFF rating of 120+/100 and a DEF rating below 105 per 100 poss.

That should put him in the top 15.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#38 » by Dave_From_NB » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:22 am

It's not hard to see him getting stronger, some guys just take some time to put on some beef unless they're juicing it. Getting up more free throws, much of that comes with experience. Improving his court vision, that comes with experience as well. Cripes he's up 6.5 points a game from last year, and career highs for rebounds, assists, steals, blocks. You can just see his confidence building, and you can see in how he is being utilized that they are grooming him to be the number 1 option. I think by the end of next season that he'll start getting consideration for top 10 lists as a guy who is a strong 2 way player, not there on offensive stats alone. He should be in the 26-8-5 range by then with strong defense.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#39 » by The Comedian » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:26 am

KonKrete wrote:per 36:

24+ppg 7+rbpg 5+aspg 50/40/90+shooting. A TS% of .625+ A OFF rating of 120+/100 and a DEF rating below 105 per 100 poss.

That should put him in the top 15.


Oh, that's all he needs to do to be a top 15 player? Put up top 3 player stats?
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#40 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:29 am

The Comedian wrote:
KonKrete wrote:per 36:

24+ppg 7+rbpg 5+aspg 50/40/90+shooting. A TS% of .625+ A OFF rating of 120+/100 and a DEF rating below 105 per 100 poss.

That should put him in the top 15.


Oh, that's all he needs to do to be a top 15 player? Put up top 3 player stats?


Ya you know, just put together one of the best overall seasons ever. What kind of standards do you have to be a top 15 player for today...

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