Honest question about Tatum

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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#61 » by YaBoyKD » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:50 am

BillTheGOAT wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:He would need to get his PER above 20 for starters (PER above 24 is top 10 territory).

Let’s see if he can keep up his production against better teams too.
Enes Kanter has a PER of 23.8 so thanks for confirming Kanter is a top 10 player.

Might wanna brush up on your understanding of “above”
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#62 » by robbie84 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:04 am

ccie8030 wrote:
BodieB wrote:If he ends the season the ways he's played in 2020 there should be no doubt.


Tatum = slightly better version of Rudy Gay



It's funny because it used to be 'Tatum = Rudy Gay...
So now he's slightly better.
At this point he'll be a rich man's Rudy Gay when he makes his first All NBA team.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#63 » by Green89 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:19 am

HoopsterJones wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote::wink:

25 PER is top 10, look it up. Kanter doesn’t qualify also because of only averaging 18.9 MPG.

Tatum is sitting at 19.5 PER. That’s not top 10.


Whiteside plays near 30 a night and is top ten, Young and Harrell are top 15. Honestly I wouldn't use PER either as players beinfit from a high usg. I don't think there's one stats that you can weigh heavily. As for Tatum, I don't think even if he continues his current play he'll be in the conversation, he still makes boneheaded plays young players do. Only somone like Doncic can be that young and disciplined to the point he's never reallya negative at any time.


PER isn’t a perfect catchall, however it’s a pretty accurate indicator. The only two in the top 10 in PER that shouldn’t be considered a top 10 player right now are KAT and Irving. A healthy Durant and Curry rounds out the top 10 in place of them IMO.

1. Giannis
2. Doncic
3. Harden
4. AD
5. Lillard
6. KAT
7. Kawhi
8. Irving
9. Lebron
10. Jokic

Tatum isn’t even in the top 50 in PER. But he is on the right trajectory to being a top 10ish player in the near future.


Paul George has never even ranked in the top 20 in PER in his career, and only cracked the Top 25 once (his highest ranking was last season at 22nd). He was a top 5 player last year, despite ranking 22nd in PER. He's only broke 20 for PER in 5 of his 10 seasons, and for three of those, only barely broke 20 (20.1,20.2, & 20.9). Your theory = blown.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#64 » by HoopsterJones » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:18 pm

Green89 wrote:
HoopsterJones wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
Whiteside plays near 30 a night and is top ten, Young and Harrell are top 15. Honestly I wouldn't use PER either as players beinfit from a high usg. I don't think there's one stats that you can weigh heavily. As for Tatum, I don't think even if he continues his current play he'll be in the conversation, he still makes boneheaded plays young players do. Only somone like Doncic can be that young and disciplined to the point he's never reallya negative at any time.


PER isn’t a perfect catchall, however it’s a pretty accurate indicator. The only two in the top 10 in PER that shouldn’t be considered a top 10 player right now are KAT and Irving. A healthy Durant and Curry rounds out the top 10 in place of them IMO.

1. Giannis
2. Doncic
3. Harden
4. AD
5. Lillard
6. KAT
7. Kawhi
8. Irving
9. Lebron
10. Jokic

Tatum isn’t even in the top 50 in PER. But he is on the right trajectory to being a top 10ish player in the near future.


Paul George has never even ranked in the top 20 in PER in his career, and only cracked the Top 25 once (his highest ranking was last season at 22nd). He was a top 5 player last year, despite ranking 22nd in PER. He's only broke 20 for PER in 5 of his 10 seasons, and for three of those, only barely broke 20 (20.1,20.2, & 20.9). Your theory = blown.


Paul George wasn’t top 5 last year. Arguably top 10. He had a PER of 23.3 which is very good. Come back to me when Tatum breaks 23. No top 10 player has a PER below 20. Right now it’s at about 24-25 based on the top 10 in PER currently. Your effort = terrible.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#65 » by myronbolitar » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:25 pm

PER is a very, very weird stat to orient an entire judgement of a player around.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#66 » by Jaqua92 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:32 am

zimpy27 wrote:Leaving out Tatum for these lists:

Top 10 could be Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Davis, Embiid, Doncic, Jokic, Harden, KAT, Lillard

Then in next 15 could be Butler, Trae, Gobert, PG13, Siakam, Simmons, CP3, Middleton, Kemba, Middleton, Jrue, Lowry, Beal, Durant (healthy), Nurkic (healthy)

Who do you have Tatum above from this list of 25?


Lol Jrue, Lowry, Middleton, arguably Trae because of his aweful defense, Nurkic. He's arguably close behind Siakam. Believe me, I'm the first to criticize the opinions of fellow Celtic fans, but Tatum is better than a handful of these players.

Top 15? No. He's not. He's top 20-25 right now.

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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#67 » by Jaqua92 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:36 am

Je K wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Je K wrote:Those are Khris Middleton's actual stats this season... And you just said you'd take Tatum over Middleton?


First thing I will say is I have horrible reading comprehension, didnt see the per 36 part haha. There is a big difference between doing that per 36 and actual per game numbers.

Middleton is a very good player and rightful all star. But yes I will take Tatum over him, I think Tatum is much more impactful defender.

That's fair haha.

I do think the gap on offense (especially efficiency) this season more than covers the defensive gap between the two, but I obviously haven't watched as much of Tatum this year. I think I'm still a little salty from people mentioning Tatum as an obvious all-star while leaving off Middleton, who I believe is clearly having a better season. But Tatum is definitely impressing me this season.
Middleton benefits A LOT from Giannis. Tatum is now the #1 option for the Celtics. He has more go to moves. He's not as effecient, but he's a more natural scorer and has a major defense edge..they are the same tier player. If the Celtics replaced Tatum with Middleton, the team wouldn't be as good.

Middleton benefits from a 7 foot monster collapsing the defense who is having a GOAT season. Can Middleton create his own shot off the dribble? He seems to be a very similar player to Klay.

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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#68 » by zimpy27 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:43 am

Jaqua92 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Leaving out Tatum for these lists:

Top 10 could be Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Davis, Embiid, Doncic, Jokic, Harden, KAT, Lillard

Then in next 15 could be Butler, Trae, Gobert, PG13, Siakam, Simmons, CP3, Middleton, Kemba, Middleton, Jrue, Lowry, Beal, Durant (healthy), Nurkic (healthy)

Who do you have Tatum above from this list of 25?


Lol Jrue, Lowry, Middleton, arguably Trae because of his aweful defense, Nurkic. He's arguably close behind Siakam. Believe me, I'm the first to criticize the opinions of fellow Celtic fans, but Tatum is better than a handful of these players.

Top 15? No. He's not. He's top 20-25 right now.

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I agree, I probably have him around 19th-20th

It's hard to predict how a player enters top 10, Lillard was outside top 10 last season and now he's carrying the team to wins. So I kind of think Tatum needs to be able to carry the team to wins to become top 10.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#69 » by Je K » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:43 am

Jaqua92 wrote:
Je K wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
First thing I will say is I have horrible reading comprehension, didnt see the per 36 part haha. There is a big difference between doing that per 36 and actual per game numbers.

Middleton is a very good player and rightful all star. But yes I will take Tatum over him, I think Tatum is much more impactful defender.

That's fair haha.

I do think the gap on offense (especially efficiency) this season more than covers the defensive gap between the two, but I obviously haven't watched as much of Tatum this year. I think I'm still a little salty from people mentioning Tatum as an obvious all-star while leaving off Middleton, who I believe is clearly having a better season. But Tatum is definitely impressing me this season.
Middleton benefits A LOT from Giannis. Tatum is now the #1 option for the Celtics. He has more go to moves. He's not as effecient, but he's a more natural scorer and has a major defense edge..they are the same tier player. If the Celtics replaced Tatum with Middleton, the team wouldn't be as good.

Middleton benefits from a 7 foot monster collapsing the defense who is having a GOAT season. Can Middleton create his own shot off the dribble? He seems to be a very similar player to Klay.

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I have to disagree with a lot of this. Middleton mostly creates his own shot off the dribble - that's what he's known for. One of the main reasons he's been excelling this year is because Bud has allowed him to utilize his post-up/midrange game way more this season.

As for Middleton succeeding because of Giannis, Khris has a 33% usage rate when Giannis is off the court with a 62.4% TS% and 1.26 PPP. Those are top-notch #1 guy numbers. I won't comment anymore on Tatum, because I just haven't watched enough of him this season. But I will defend Middleton, who is still being underappreciated this year.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#70 » by jdm_dc_fan » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:51 am

Looks like Tatum had another big game against a top 5 player. Locked up the Klaw at the end of the 4th and both OT. Literally carried the team for a handful of crunch time possessions. Tatum kept switching onto shamet and KL didn’t fight it he didn’t want any of late game Tatum.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#71 » by ProfessorJM » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:09 am

Je K wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:
Je K wrote:That's fair haha.

I do think the gap on offense (especially efficiency) this season more than covers the defensive gap between the two, but I obviously haven't watched as much of Tatum this year. I think I'm still a little salty from people mentioning Tatum as an obvious all-star while leaving off Middleton, who I believe is clearly having a better season. But Tatum is definitely impressing me this season.
Middleton benefits A LOT from Giannis. Tatum is now the #1 option for the Celtics. He has more go to moves. He's not as effecient, but he's a more natural scorer and has a major defense edge..they are the same tier player. If the Celtics replaced Tatum with Middleton, the team wouldn't be as good.

Middleton benefits from a 7 foot monster collapsing the defense who is having a GOAT season. Can Middleton create his own shot off the dribble? He seems to be a very similar player to Klay.

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I have to disagree with a lot of this. Middleton mostly creates his own shot off the dribble - that's what he's known for. One of the main reasons he's been excelling this year is because Bud has allowed him to utilize his post-up/midrange game way more this season.

As for Middleton succeeding because of Giannis, Khris has a 33% usage rate when Giannis is off the court with a 62.4% TS% and 1.26 PPP. Those are top-notch #1 guy numbers. I won't comment anymore on Tatum, because I just haven't watched enough of him this season. But I will defend Middleton, who is still being underappreciated this year.


I think you are right, I can't get the Klay comparison at all considering how Middleton plays off the dribble. Middleton's numbers with Giannis off court are really good. Of course Middleton benefits because he doesn't have 30+ minutes night after night being the #1 option for defensive game planning, but I think he's elevated his game this year.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#72 » by Perseus1966 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:39 am

Last night was great ,against rockets he was very bad
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#73 » by dans1230 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:41 am

Tatum had an incredibly poor start to the season where in Boston we were having whos better, Tatum or Brown debates. Im not certain it really affected his ppg stat but definitely his efficiency. Tough to average more than 22 ppg when you have 4 guys on your team averaging over 17. His defense is what has really stood out this year which brings a lot of Paul George comparisons.
I think he will finish the year considered a top 20 player with high expectations going into next year.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#74 » by Floody100 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:23 pm

dans1230 wrote:Tatum had an incredibly poor start to the season where in Boston we were having whos better, Tatum or Brown debates. Im not certain it really affected his ppg stat but definitely his efficiency. Tough to average more than 22 ppg when you have 4 guys on your team averaging over 17. His defense is what has really stood out this year which brings a lot of Paul George comparisons.
I think he will finish the year considered a top 20 player with high expectations going into next year.


What are you taking about lol ? ‘Considered’ a top 20 player ?
Already a top 15 player right now.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#75 » by RB34 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:24 pm

Tatum’s “poor start” has been massively overstated.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#76 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:52 pm

He needs to become much more efficient when requested to create or a much better creator for others.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#77 » by SmartWentCrazy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:09 pm

RB34 wrote:Tatum’s “poor start” has been massively overstated.


He had a rough first 9 games. Since then, over a span of 41 games, he’s averaging 23-7-3 on 57% TS and playing elite D. Given that he’s trended the right way and progressively improved each month, people shouldnt let his start bias their view of the player downward.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#78 » by Scalabrine » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:34 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:In terms of rough numbers 25/8/4 on good efficiency gets him into the convo. More so if he is leading the Celtics to a top 3 record in the conference and playing good defense.


Is he definitely their best player though?
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#79 » by daswunderboy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:38 pm

If this is Tatum the rest of the year and going forward, he's probably a top 10 player now. it's scary how much he blossomed all of a sudden! But to be in the conversation, you have to do it consistently, so lets see how he closes out the season and especially his playoff performance.
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Re: Honest question about Tatum 

Post#80 » by Brandon_Roy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:46 pm

Everything is there to be a great 2 way player.
If he doesn't become a superstar then he'll be a disappointment imho.

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