Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid?

Moderators: BombsquadSammy, GeorgeMarcus, PockyCandy, Prez, bwgood77, ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, jamaalstar21, zimpy27

better talent

Zion
132
54%
Embiid
111
46%
 
Total votes: 243

dautjazz
RealGM
Posts: 10,864
And1: 6,123
Joined: Aug 01, 2001
Location: Miami, FL
 

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#61 » by dautjazz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:48 am

stormi wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
stormi wrote:
Jojo was statistically more dominant (on/off wise) during his minutes on the court than Kawhi while battling a disease in his tummy worse than corona. Nobody else did that to the Raptors last year

even in a down 'the world is falling' year where he's been splitting a majority of his minutes with another center for the first time in his career, he's still the best rim protector in the league while averaging ~23ppg

Read on Twitter


Give me the best big man in the league over Bobby Portis with more hops
Are you seriously going to use that stat to support that Embiid is the best rim protector? No way in hell is Embiid or Green a better rim protector than Gobert. Opposing FG% for shots in the paint is a way better stat, and I guarantee you that Embiid wouldn't top that list.


Gobert is definitely a better pure rim protector and has quick feet, but that's his specialty. Embiid is leagues better offensively than Rudy while similarly skilled at protecting the rim


That is just not true.

Opponent FG% <6FT (minimum 30 games played, and 5 FGA defended per game):

1. Brook Lopez: 7.8DFGA / 43.2%
2. Ivica Zubac: 5.1DFGA / 46.6%
3. Rudy Gobert: 9.3DFGA / 48.9%

37 out of 44. Joel Embiid: 8.3DFGA / 60.1%

Also offensively, Gobert leads the league in FG% by a good margin and second in TS%. He is FAR more efficient at scoring. Embiid takes an extra 7.2 FGA's and even with 3 more FTM/game he only averages 7.3 more ppg. Gobert also has a league leading 7.3 screen assists to Embiid's 3. Factor in 2.7 more rpg too. Embiid has him beat in assists, but at the cost of an extra turnover a game. Now what can't be denied is that Gobert is far less a concern healthwise. Don't get me wrong, I had Embiid above Gobert last year, but I think Gobert has closed the gap. Gobert undeniably has a bigger impact in terms of winning to his team than Embiid does.
NickAnderson wrote:
How old are you, just curious.

by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
User avatar
Sign5
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,753
And1: 8,451
Joined: Sep 27, 2011

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#62 » by Sign5 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 am

Zion and its not even close. Dude still has so much to his game, how much more is Embiid going to improve?
User avatar
stormi
Senior
Posts: 650
And1: 422
Joined: Jun 04, 2019
 

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#63 » by stormi » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:36 am

dautjazz wrote:
stormi wrote:
dautjazz wrote:Are you seriously going to use that stat to support that Embiid is the best rim protector? No way in hell is Embiid or Green a better rim protector than Gobert. Opposing FG% for shots in the paint is a way better stat, and I guarantee you that Embiid wouldn't top that list.


Gobert is definitely a better pure rim protector and has quick feet, but that's his specialty. Embiid is leagues better offensively than Rudy while similarly skilled at protecting the rim


That is just not true.

Opponent FG% <6FT (minimum 30 games played, and 5 FGA defended per game):

1. Brook Lopez: 7.8DFGA / 43.2%
2. Ivica Zubac: 5.1DFGA / 46.6%
3. Rudy Gobert: 9.3DFGA / 48.9%

37 out of 44. Joel Embiid: 8.3DFGA / 60.1%

Also offensively, Gobert leads the league in FG% by a good margin and second in TS%. He is FAR more efficient at scoring. Embiid takes an extra 7.2 FGA's and even with 3 more FTM/game he only averages 7.3 more ppg. Gobert also has a league leading 7.3 screen assists to Embiid's 3. Factor in 2.7 more rpg too. Embiid has him beat in assists, but at the cost of an extra turnover a game. Now what can't be denied is that Gobert is far less a concern healthwise. Don't get me wrong, I had Embiid above Gobert last year, but I think Gobert has closed the gap. Gobert undeniably has a bigger impact in terms of winning to his team than Embiid does.


This year is an anomaly. Last year Embiid was DPOY, the year before it was Gobert and Offensively Joel gives you 23 on a bad night, Gobert gives you 15 in a season high
User avatar
GSP
General Manager
Posts: 9,732
And1: 3,502
Joined: Dec 12, 2011
     

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#64 » by GSP » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:40 am

Offensively i dont think Embiid will ever be as good as current Zion. Who is still 19yo and rusty off an injury.

Embiid is a significantly better defender and it remains to be seen how much Zion can get on that end as hes really bad right now but offensively hes certainly a far better talent
Jables
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,467
And1: 1,112
Joined: Jul 21, 2014
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#65 » by Jables » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:13 am

Embiid impacts the game significantly on both ends and forces the opposition to play guys that can't do anything besides be big enough to get in the way of Embiid. In terms of talent? Absurd to compare 7 footers and power forwards.
dautjazz
RealGM
Posts: 10,864
And1: 6,123
Joined: Aug 01, 2001
Location: Miami, FL
 

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#66 » by dautjazz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:57 pm

stormi wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
stormi wrote:
Gobert is definitely a better pure rim protector and has quick feet, but that's his specialty. Embiid is leagues better offensively than Rudy while similarly skilled at protecting the rim


That is just not true.

Opponent FG% <6FT (minimum 30 games played, and 5 FGA defended per game):

1. Brook Lopez: 7.8DFGA / 43.2%
2. Ivica Zubac: 5.1DFGA / 46.6%
3. Rudy Gobert: 9.3DFGA / 48.9%

37 out of 44. Joel Embiid: 8.3DFGA / 60.1%

Also offensively, Gobert leads the league in FG% by a good margin and second in TS%. He is FAR more efficient at scoring. Embiid takes an extra 7.2 FGA's and even with 3 more FTM/game he only averages 7.3 more ppg. Gobert also has a league leading 7.3 screen assists to Embiid's 3. Factor in 2.7 more rpg too. Embiid has him beat in assists, but at the cost of an extra turnover a game. Now what can't be denied is that Gobert is far less a concern healthwise. Don't get me wrong, I had Embiid above Gobert last year, but I think Gobert has closed the gap. Gobert undeniably has a bigger impact in terms of winning to his team than Embiid does.


This year is an anomaly. Last year Embiid was DPOY, the year before it was Gobert and Offensively Joel gives you 23 on a bad night, Gobert gives you 15 in a season high


LOL come on, Embiid scoring slightly above him average would be a bad night for him, but Gobert scoring below his average is a season high? I like how you this year is an anomaly when Embiid only has had two seasons where he played more than 39 games (his current) amount, so unless we are to count his 31 game rookie season, which is a really small sample size, you only have two other seasons to compare this season to. If anything last year was an anomaly for Embiid, with his averages much higher than the season before and after.
NickAnderson wrote:
How old are you, just curious.

by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,295
And1: 17,178
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#67 » by GeorgeMarcus » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:50 pm

stormi wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
stormi wrote:
Gobert is definitely a better pure rim protector and has quick feet, but that's his specialty. Embiid is leagues better offensively than Rudy while similarly skilled at protecting the rim


That is just not true.

Opponent FG% <6FT (minimum 30 games played, and 5 FGA defended per game):

1. Brook Lopez: 7.8DFGA / 43.2%
2. Ivica Zubac: 5.1DFGA / 46.6%
3. Rudy Gobert: 9.3DFGA / 48.9%

37 out of 44. Joel Embiid: 8.3DFGA / 60.1%

Also offensively, Gobert leads the league in FG% by a good margin and second in TS%. He is FAR more efficient at scoring. Embiid takes an extra 7.2 FGA's and even with 3 more FTM/game he only averages 7.3 more ppg. Gobert also has a league leading 7.3 screen assists to Embiid's 3. Factor in 2.7 more rpg too. Embiid has him beat in assists, but at the cost of an extra turnover a game. Now what can't be denied is that Gobert is far less a concern healthwise. Don't get me wrong, I had Embiid above Gobert last year, but I think Gobert has closed the gap. Gobert undeniably has a bigger impact in terms of winning to his team than Embiid does.


This year is an anomaly. Last year Embiid was DPOY, the year before it was Gobert and Offensively Joel gives you 23 on a bad night, Gobert gives you 15 in a season high


I wouldn't even call it an anomaly so much as the fact that those stats are extremely misleading and don't account for significant schematic differences. I'll quote myself from the DPOY thread:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:From an optics standpoint, Brett Brown's defensive scheme is the worst thing to happen to Joel's DPOY chances.


Embiid's Def Rtg and DRAPM are higher than Gobert's for a reason.
"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph

The Legend of George Marcus
User avatar
Arsenal
General Manager
Posts: 9,127
And1: 4,560
Joined: Jun 05, 2002
Location: Arlington, VA
         

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#68 » by Arsenal » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:58 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
stormi wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
That is just not true.

Opponent FG% <6FT (minimum 30 games played, and 5 FGA defended per game):

1. Brook Lopez: 7.8DFGA / 43.2%
2. Ivica Zubac: 5.1DFGA / 46.6%
3. Rudy Gobert: 9.3DFGA / 48.9%

37 out of 44. Joel Embiid: 8.3DFGA / 60.1%

Also offensively, Gobert leads the league in FG% by a good margin and second in TS%. He is FAR more efficient at scoring. Embiid takes an extra 7.2 FGA's and even with 3 more FTM/game he only averages 7.3 more ppg. Gobert also has a league leading 7.3 screen assists to Embiid's 3. Factor in 2.7 more rpg too. Embiid has him beat in assists, but at the cost of an extra turnover a game. Now what can't be denied is that Gobert is far less a concern healthwise. Don't get me wrong, I had Embiid above Gobert last year, but I think Gobert has closed the gap. Gobert undeniably has a bigger impact in terms of winning to his team than Embiid does.


This year is an anomaly. Last year Embiid was DPOY, the year before it was Gobert and Offensively Joel gives you 23 on a bad night, Gobert gives you 15 in a season high


I wouldn't even call it an anomaly so much as the fact that those stats are extremely misleading and don't account for significant schematic differences. I'll quote myself from the DPOY thread:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:From an optics standpoint, Brett Brown's defensive scheme is the worst thing to happen to Joel's DPOY chances.


Embiid's Def Rtg and DRAPM are higher than Gobert's for a reason.


Yes those stats are misleading because Embiid has been so dominant on D the past few years that other teams don't even try to get to the rim against him. So when they actually do attack the rim, it's because its a rare excellent opportunity.

Joel Embiid changes the game on defense.
#ThankYouSam | #TrustTheProcess
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,295
And1: 17,178
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#69 » by GeorgeMarcus » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:01 pm

Arsenal wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
stormi wrote:
This year is an anomaly. Last year Embiid was DPOY, the year before it was Gobert and Offensively Joel gives you 23 on a bad night, Gobert gives you 15 in a season high


I wouldn't even call it an anomaly so much as the fact that those stats are extremely misleading and don't account for significant schematic differences. I'll quote myself from the DPOY thread:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:From an optics standpoint, Brett Brown's defensive scheme is the worst thing to happen to Joel's DPOY chances.


Embiid's Def Rtg and DRAPM are higher than Gobert's for a reason.


Yes those stats are misleading because Embiid has been so dominant on D the past few years that other teams don't even try to get to the rim against him. So when they actually do attack the rim, it's because its a rare excellent opportunity.

Joel Embiid changes the game on defense.


I wasn't even considering that element of it, but I think you're right. Teams know what to game plan for, and there is definite value in scaring players away from the basket.
"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph

The Legend of George Marcus
User avatar
Arsenal
General Manager
Posts: 9,127
And1: 4,560
Joined: Jun 05, 2002
Location: Arlington, VA
         

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#70 » by Arsenal » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:03 pm

Re: Zion

An unbelievable offensive talent. Will be better than Embiid on offense. But when you factor in defense I"m not so sure. Embiid is an all-time talent as a defensive anchor.
#ThankYouSam | #TrustTheProcess
flow
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,718
And1: 996
Joined: Feb 18, 2016

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#71 » by flow » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:07 pm

stormi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:The Embiid slander from Raps fans is bizarre to me.

Philly beat the brakes off of the Raps in the playoffs when Embiid was on the floor. His defense was that dominant.

Then the Raps proceeded to quite comfortably take out the Bucks and Warriors.

Raps ended up winning the title, so I don’t get why they’d be insecure about how great/impactful Embiid was in their playoff series.


Jojo was statistically more dominant (on/off wise) during his minutes on the court than Kawhi while battling a disease in his tummy worse than corona. Nobody else did that to the Raptors last year

even in a down 'the world is falling' year where he's been splitting a majority of his minutes with another center for the first time in his career, he's still the best rim protector in the league while averaging ~23ppg

Give me the best big man in the league over Bobby Portis with more hops


I get your overall argument. But as to this last bit, Nah. He can do more work inside than Bobby Portis ever dreamed of.

He's Zach Randolph with hops. And that's a hell of a player.

.
User avatar
SecondTake
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,418
And1: 620
Joined: Jun 03, 2017

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#72 » by SecondTake » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:04 pm

Zion today is already a much better player than Embiid ever was.
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,295
And1: 17,178
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#73 » by GeorgeMarcus » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:06 pm

SecondTake wrote:Zion today is already a much better player than Embiid ever was.


It's Valentine's Day, not April Fools
"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph

The Legend of George Marcus
paulbball
Starter
Posts: 2,315
And1: 2,153
Joined: Jun 30, 2016
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#74 » by paulbball » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:10 pm

Embiid's playstyle is outdated for the today's NBA.

Zion is far more valuable as a player and prospect. His offense at 10 games back from a serious knee injury is already peaking higher than Embiid's peak offense.
User avatar
E-Balla
RealGM
Posts: 31,581
And1: 19,673
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Location: The Poster Formerly Known As The Gotham City Pantalones
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#75 » by E-Balla » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:11 pm

SecondTake wrote:Zion today is already a much better player than Embiid ever was.

I'm conflicted on this because it's probably true but I haven't seen enough to say it definitively.
"The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict." - Martin Luther King
User avatar
NoDopeOnSundays
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,318
And1: 6,193
Joined: Nov 22, 2005
         

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#76 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:12 pm

A "healthy" and in shape Embiid is up there as best player in the league and DPOY candidate on defense.
User avatar
Krispy Kreme
Analyst
Posts: 3,266
And1: 1,591
Joined: Apr 02, 2015
   

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#77 » by Krispy Kreme » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:12 pm

Yes. No brainer.
User avatar
SecondTake
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,418
And1: 620
Joined: Jun 03, 2017

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#78 » by SecondTake » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:18 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:A "healthy" and in shape Embiid is up there as best player in the league and DPOY candidate on defense.


In other words an Embid that exists only in your imagination.
User avatar
NoDopeOnSundays
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,318
And1: 6,193
Joined: Nov 22, 2005
         

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#79 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 pm

SecondTake wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:A "healthy" and in shape Embiid is up there as best player in the league and DPOY candidate on defense.


In other words an Embid that exists only in your imagination.



Or, if you knew how to read he exists in this thread or is "healthy Embiid" not in the title.
Bum Adebayo
Analyst
Posts: 3,478
And1: 1,362
Joined: Apr 28, 2016
 

Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#80 » by Bum Adebayo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:08 pm

paulbball wrote:Embiid's playstyle is outdated for the today's NBA.

Zion is far more valuable as a player and prospect. His offense at 10 games back from a serious knee injury is already peaking higher than Embiid's peak offense.


No it's not outdated, it's just that he is not good enough at executing his playstyle against certain defenders, that is all.
If Zion ends up being the better player, which he will, it's just because he is a better prospect and is more talented than Embiid. It has nothing to do with playstyle.

Return to The General Board