Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid?

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better talent

Zion
132
54%
Embiid
111
46%
 
Total votes: 243

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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#81 » by dautjazz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:A "healthy" and in shape Embiid is up there as best player in the league and DPOY candidate on defense.


A healthy Embiid hasnt existed since his high school days though, he's suffered injuries in high school, his lone college season, missed his two first NBA seasons, missed most of his 3rd/rookie season, then has missed significant time the other 3 seasons.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#82 » by LewisnotMiller » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:00 am

EasternHeretic wrote:Who's got the higher potential?


If we're comparing healthy Zion, does that mean we use healthy Embiid?
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#83 » by EasternHeretic » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:27 pm

LewisnotMiller wrote:
EasternHeretic wrote:Who's got the higher potential?


If we're comparing healthy Zion, does that mean we use healthy Embiid?

Yes?
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#84 » by NY 567 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:32 am

Zion is a very talented young player but some of the hype is getting out of control. He's played a handful of games, there is still a lot left to figure out. Anyone can look good in a fairly small sample size. We still don't know how he's going to handle the wear and tear of a full season, or if his stamina will hold up with his football body type. Saying he's a generational talent this early is a wild and extremely aggressive take. As far as Embiid vs Zion goes, Embiid in his rookie year had comparable scoring and rebounding numbers and Embiid had a massive advantage on defense. Its premature to even say he was a better rookie than Embiid is.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#85 » by J___Av » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:49 am

NY 567 wrote: Anyone can look good in a fairly small sample size


There is literally only a handful of guys who have put up Zion's stats to start their career.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#86 » by Roddy B for 3 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:09 am

If I was guaranteed health they are similar enough "talents" to take Zion because I trust his mindset.

If they are fully healthy and have the same mindset then I take Embiid because he's more bigger.

Does size + mindset go with talent? I personally think it does.

If this is a real world question (health issues as we know them, mindsets as we know them, etc) I take Embiid because I trust him more to stay healthy and in competitive shape (ironic huh?).

A fact is Embiid has played a higher percentage of his potential games than Zion and has played them in better physical shape (imo).

Ask me this question early November of next year and I might change my question.

This is all about health because either could be an MVP candidate for the next ten years.

Health, and mindset aside (which I think are part of talent) Embidd is better.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#87 » by VanWest82 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:24 am

Have we seen either in the NBA yet?
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#88 » by LewisnotMiller » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:50 am

EasternHeretic wrote:
LewisnotMiller wrote:
EasternHeretic wrote:Who's got the higher potential?


If we're comparing healthy Zion, does that mean we use healthy Embiid?

Yes?


I'd lean Zion, but those are both beasts.
However, much as Zions health seems a risk, I honestly think Embiid will have a short career and never be healthy and fit.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#89 » by fianchetto » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:51 am

jamaalstar21 wrote:Embiid has not improved at all in his 4 years in the league. He's a nimble, athletic giant with a decent defensive motor, which makes him automatically one one of the best defensive players in the NBA. On offense, despite the size/athleticism, mobility and feathery touch... he still has no idea how to attack a defense. He's a post player that shoots 46% from the floor (same number as his rookie season). He hasn't improved as a passer. He's a little more effective in the mid-post this year. He looks pretty clueless with the ball in his hands. When he's not athletically dominating people, or on fire, he looks like a giant baby deer... 4 years in! Show me something big man!

Zion has been a defensive disappointment throughout 9 games. He certainly isn't flying Draymond right now. On offense... I feel you could throw him into any game with any player and he'd still be able to just be a cannonball with the most ridiculous second jump ever. He's going to help a team just by being on the floor. His rim diving "gravity" looks terrifying, just sucks the entire defense in when he starts to cut.

I dunno. Zion has only played 9 games so I still believe he can improve. Embiid is starting to make me worry that he won't improve. Embiid's basement when healthy is still perennial DPOY candidate wich is pretty good. I'll go with the unknown and pick Zion though.



Was hoping you’d go with Embiid at the end, but agreed on pretty much all points. I like defense so I’m not impartial.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#90 » by Yuri36 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:01 am

I take Zion for multiple reasons:
-bigger physical upside
-better basketball IQ
-better skills all around the rim and better basketball instincts
-and last but not the least, he seems smarter and in the long run, I think it will make the difference.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#91 » by djsunyc » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:45 am

i think embiid needs to play with a point guard.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#92 » by syntax » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:20 am

Yuri36 wrote:I take Zion for multiple reasons:
-bigger physical upside
-better basketball IQ
-better skills all around the rim and better basketball instincts
-and last but not the least, he seems smarter and in the long run, I think it will make the difference is


Bigger physical upside than a 7 footer with a 7'5" wingspan?

64% ft from Zion vs 80% from Embiid. Not to mention Embiid is a better outside shooter.

These rest of this "Zion is smarter than Embiid" is all hearsay.

Call me when Zion sniffs the playoffs.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#93 » by ADMVP » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:19 am

syntax wrote:
Yuri36 wrote:I take Zion for multiple reasons:
-bigger physical upside
-better basketball IQ
-better skills all around the rim and better basketball instincts
-and last but not the least, he seems smarter and in the long run, I think it will make the difference is


Bigger physical upside than a 7 footer with a 7'5" wingspan?

64% ft from Zion vs 80% from Embiid. Not to mention Embiid is a better outside shooter.

These rest of this "Zion is smarter than Embiid" is all hearsay.

Call me when Zion sniffs the playoffs.
He's literally sniffing the playoffs...

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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#94 » by syntax » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:41 pm

ADMVP wrote:
syntax wrote:
Yuri36 wrote:I take Zion for multiple reasons:
-bigger physical upside
-better basketball IQ
-better skills all around the rim and better basketball instincts
-and last but not the least, he seems smarter and in the long run, I think it will make the difference is


Bigger physical upside than a 7 footer with a 7'5" wingspan?

64% ft from Zion vs 80% from Embiid. Not to mention Embiid is a better outside shooter.

These rest of this "Zion is smarter than Embiid" is all hearsay.

Call me when Zion sniffs the playoffs.
He's literally sniffing the playoffs...

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23-32 in the west with 27 games to go. He must be a bloodhound.

Jrue is sucking up 26 and 27 mil for the next 2 years. JJ Reddick 13 mil next year, then they have to extend Ingram for the max after this year. Lonzo the year after.

Hard to see it happening.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#95 » by lordjeff05 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:28 pm

They are both great players but where I’d give the edge to Zion is that he is more comfortable defensively on the perimeter which will be a bigger advantage long term.

Embiid is a beast on defense but he suffers from the same issue that Rudy Gobert has. Neither player is comfortable guarding out on the perimeter. That leaves them susceptible to stretch bigs and guards who can create their own perimeter shot off the dribble. If you force them to switch, they are in trouble.

Zion has a long ways to go but I’d argue he’s already more comfortable switching. Also he may have a Jokic defensive future, meaning he doesn’t look good on that end but the team plays well defensively when he is on the floor, even without a rim protector in Favors (small sample).
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#96 » by syntax » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

lordjeff05 wrote:Embiid is a beast on defense but he suffers from the same issue that Rudy Gobert has. Neither player is comfortable guarding out on the perimeter. That leaves them susceptible to stretch bigs and guards who can create their own perimeter shot off the dribble. If you force them to switch, they are in trouble.


Hangon, you're saying that because Gobert blocks 2 shots a game and have the Jazz 8th in defensive rating (Sixers are 4th in defensive rating) that these big men are somehow a liability to their team on defense?
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#97 » by KHRICH » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Capn'O wrote:Zion is the best talent since LeBron.

Lol what no best physical freak since bron not talent dont get that confused
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#98 » by Ecmic » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:27 pm

I think I’d have to go with Zion. It’s vey hard to find offensively dominant players that aren’t also ball dominant in their sets. Which I think is a skill in its own right. He’s like an inside-the-arc version of Klay Thompson, except he can be more impactful than Klay due to volume.

He also creates opportunities outside of normal offensive flow, which I think is super important. Already elite at creating in transition and offensive rebounding, and that’s an extremely rare combo that I think has the opportunity to swing games on its own.
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#99 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:31 pm

syntax wrote:
Yuri36 wrote:I take Zion for multiple reasons:
-bigger physical upside
-better basketball IQ
-better skills all around the rim and better basketball instincts
-and last but not the least, he seems smarter and in the long run, I think it will make the difference is


Bigger physical upside than a 7 footer with a 7'5" wingspan?

64% ft from Zion vs 80% from Embiid. Not to mention Embiid is a better outside shooter.

These rest of this "Zion is smarter than Embiid" is all hearsay.

Call me when Zion sniffs the playoffs.


Bet he makes it to the playoffs before he's 23. :oops:
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Re: Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid? 

Post#100 » by jamaalstar21 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:49 pm

fianchetto wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:Embiid has not improved at all in his 4 years in the league. He's a nimble, athletic giant with a decent defensive motor, which makes him automatically one one of the best defensive players in the NBA. On offense, despite the size/athleticism, mobility and feathery touch... he still has no idea how to attack a defense. He's a post player that shoots 46% from the floor (same number as his rookie season). He hasn't improved as a passer. He's a little more effective in the mid-post this year. He looks pretty clueless with the ball in his hands. When he's not athletically dominating people, or on fire, he looks like a giant baby deer... 4 years in! Show me something big man!

Zion has been a defensive disappointment throughout 9 games. He certainly isn't flying Draymond right now. On offense... I feel you could throw him into any game with any player and he'd still be able to just be a cannonball with the most ridiculous second jump ever. He's going to help a team just by being on the floor. His rim diving "gravity" looks terrifying, just sucks the entire defense in when he starts to cut.

I dunno. Zion has only played 9 games so I still believe he can improve. Embiid is starting to make me worry that he won't improve. Embiid's basement when healthy is still perennial DPOY candidate wich is pretty good. I'll go with the unknown and pick Zion though.



Was hoping you’d go with Embiid at the end, but agreed on pretty much all points. I like defense so I’m not impartial.


If the question was "who's better/more impactful right now", I would say Embiid without hesitation. Also, if Zion doesn't project as a high impact defensive player, I'd swing back Embiid regardless of Zion's offensive potential.

Since we haven't seen the limit for Zion yet, it's easier to be tantalized by his potential. We're free to imagine the best possible Zion, and the data doesn't exist yet to dampen that enthusiasm. Since we have almost 200 games of Embiid (+ two playoff runs), it becomes much easier for us to project his career and imagine realistic best and worst case.

Once Embiid got healthy, he immediately burst into the NBA as a force of nature on both ends. A DPOY candidate and a 20 point scorer through sheer talent. I find it highly concerning that, despite that ridiculous talent, we haven't seen him find new things to do with it. His passing, shooting, offensive arsenal etc. has been almost completely stagnant, and he hasn't yet been good enough to dominate in the playoffs against tough matchups. The first 2 years I felt: "damn he's going to be unstoppable once he learns how to read defenses". The last 2 years I've felt more like "is he ever going to learn defenses?". I listened to Steve Nash talk about Amar'e (another late-comer to the game with super charged physical gifts) on a Bill Simmons pod. He talked about how Amar'e only learned to read backline defenses in his final season with the Suns/first season with New York (unfortunately right before the injuries overtook him). Maybe that could be the case for Jojo...he'll be a bit ineffective as a #1 option against elite defenses until he's 28 or 29? Joel is 25 right now. He does kind of remind me of a giant Amare on offense. Unstoppably talented but easily flummoxed.

It's never fair to compare a successful rookie to a veteran. We're still perimitted to picture the perfect Zion career and be excited about that. These comparisons are always automatically biased towards the young phenom over the veteran whose figuring out how to build on weaknesses the league has learned to exploit. And Zion so far sucks on defense...

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