MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[Prokorov]

Surprisingly, basketball didn't begin in the 90's. This feels relevant, considering that outside of his team's achievements, he's just Lebron without the sustained excellence.

MJ never had the luxury of needing only 2 rounds to win a title, or getting to play a team with a losing record in the finals.

some of russells rings are less valuable then what you would get from a 25 cent vending machine

[Duke4life831]

I mean 6/6 is pretty self explanatory. Jordan went to the finals 6 times, each time he went he won. Not sure there really is much more to the argument than that. This is like someone saying Ted Williams .400 season, isn't really a 400 season because he missed 11 games. Like who cares, the dude batted .406 that season. Just like who cares, MJ went to the finals 6 times and won it every time. That is what people mean by 6/6. Not too complicated.

I also dont get bringing up the 6/15 argument either, especially when you're trying to make the argument that LeBron is greater than Jordan. 6/15 is still far more impressive than 3/16 which is what LeBron is currently at.

I actually think the deeper you dig on this, the better it makes Jordan look. When people think of Jordan, they think of the Bulls, not him messing around at 40 with the Wizards. So if you look at full seasons Jordan played with the Bulls, he played 11 full seasons. So when MJ showed up he was 6/11. So pretty much better than .500 when it comes to championships vs seasons played.

OP great point, 6/6 doesn't do MJ true justice on just truly how dominant he really was.

[Kamby93]

News flash, Jordan didn’t play 6 years in the nba. People gotta stop using this 6/6 in their arguments. Just because you didn’t make the finals doesn’t mean you DIDNT lose. 6/15 is his actual record and even that being said can you have worse finals competition ? We leaving 6/6 in the last decade. This is the 1 argument people have for Jordan over bron and it’s expired. Lemme know when Jordan carries a team to the finals that has no business being there. I’m open to someone changing my mind about Lebron >jordan with a real argument. Until then lebron the goat and it’s not even close.


Edit: I see a lot of people saying lebron made 2 superteams. That’s probably what he was going for but that ain’t what he got. The heat were probably a super team for their first year after that wade was shot, missing 30-40% of regular season games and year 3/4 of that era averaging 16-17ppg in the playoffs. If that’s the second best player on your superteam that team ain’t so super lol. And we’ve seen the cavs recently whenever lebron would take a seat on the bench what the result of that team was. As for 2011, lebrons first year on “wades” team he let wade and bosh try and go get it they both shot more than him that series. Only after that summer when he said I got this is when they won, and people gotta stop downplaying the mavs that year, swept a back2back champ, beat the spurs, then okc in 5. Give them credit too.

You do realize that this makes Lebron look worse right? Jordan won the finals in 40% of his seasons while Lebron only 17%.

Jordan the icing to an already great team, lebron is always the cake. They impact different

[Fencer reregistered]

Don't forget 10-0 Sam Jones and 8-0 Tom Heinsohn.

I think Heinsohn played in Russell's sprained-ankle Finals loss, as did Cousy and Sharman. Havlicek, however, really was 8-0, with some of those wins having come as the best player on the team.

could have sworn Jones and Havlicek both lost with Russell in '67. (But everybody who played with Russell won ALMOST every championship he competed for, including NCAA and Olympics.)

Ack. I wasn't thinking clearly about Havlicek. Of course you're right.

[HomoSapien]

LeBron is great. No question about it, but if we are going to play this game then let’s stop talking about how he dragged a team that didn’t deserve it to the NBA finals. He played in the Eastern conference during it’s weakest era. Later on he benefited by joining forces with his two biggest conference rivals and benefited from an elite Bulls team being destroyed by Rose’s injury.

Also what blatant disrespect to Magic Johnson/Worthy, Drexler/Porter, Barkley/KJ, Kemp/Payton, and Malone/Stockton. None of those teams were as good as the Warriors but Jordan bulldozed through hall of famers to get his rings.

I'm not sure the East in the '90s was any stronger than it was in the 00's or 10's, and if it was it's certainly not by much.

The East certainly had its weak moments, especially towards the end of the 90s, but let's specifically examine the East in 2006-2007:

* The team with the best record was a 53-win Detroit Pistons who were severely weakened by the loss of Ben Wallace. Without Wallace the Pistons were eleven games worse than the previous season. The prior season, at full-strength the Pistons defeated the Cavs.

* The defending champions Miami Heat were no longer looking too impressive as Shaq had started his decline, and were swept in the first round by a questionalbe Chicago Bulls team.

*Speaking of the Bulls, the Gordon/Hinrich/Deng-era Bulls were the third-best team in the East that season. I loved that team. Super gutsy, I think Gordon was underappreciated and underrated, but none of these guys ever emerged as true stars, and all of them basically started to fizzle out a few years later. This team being as good as it was is a clear example of how weak the conference was.

So what was the Cavs path to the finals that year?

In the first round, they faced an Arenas Wizards team, a team that perpetually underachieved and has a well-documented history of their lack of seriousness towards the game. Washington was only 41-41 that year and had almost no bench.

In the second round, they faced a 41-41 NJ Nets team. The Nets were five years removed from their last NBA finals appearance. This Vince Carter-led Nets team had no front-court, and was forced to play a 40-year-old Cliff Robinson 19 minutes a game and start Jason Collins at center. Collins was absurdly bad and averaged 2ppg, 4 rpg, and 36% FG in 23 mpg. Mikki Moore was the other starting big man and Bostjan Nachbar was the 6th man.

Detroit was their first good team in the playoffs, and we've already covered why they were weakened. When they faced the Spurs, they were swept.

LeBron leading such a weak team to the finals is impressive on one hand, but it also speaks volumes to how weak the conference was. A team with Larry Hughes as its second-best player has no business in the NBA finals, and is a result of the "Leastern Conference" era.

Now lets look at what the 90s Bulls dealt with:

People keep bringing up that Jordan didn't face a tough East, but his Eastern conference was regularly tougher than LeBron's crop. I mean he swept a Shaq/Penny/Grant Orlando Magic team that looked like it was destined to become a dynasty. He defeated Patrick Ewing, a guy who is a bigger star than anyone James faced in the East that playoff run, regularly (and while admittedly the Knicks needed a second star, they were deep with tough role players). Someone brought up the Indiana Pacers as an example of a bad team, which just astonishes me. The Bulls only played the Pacers once in the playoffs, but that Pacers team was insanely tough, loaded with savvy vets, and was very deep. On top of that, Reggie Miller despite his somewhat so-so stats had an insane ability to just win games, anyone who saw him play in his prime knows that, and was certainly more dangerous than a guy like Vince Carter or even Gilbert Arenas. The Alonzo Mourning-Tim Hardaway-Jamal Mashburn Heat could have easily been a finals team, and in fact had a better record than those Cav teams. They were probably pretty close in terms of impact to the 2000-era Pistons team.

Also, by comparison the Bulls faced eight teams that won 50+ games in the playoffs during their final three-peat and five teams that won at least 60 games.

[Fencer reregistered]

Surprisingly, basketball didn't begin in the 90's. This feels relevant, considering that outside of his team's achievements, he's just Lebron without the sustained excellence.

MJ never had the luxury of needing only 2 rounds to win a title, or getting to play a team with a losing record in the finals.

some of russells rings are less valuable then what you would get from a 25 cent vending machine

Every team that Russell ever played in the NBA Finals had recently won the Western Conference championship.

[Alatan]

6/15>3/17 just saying.

I dn't have time ATM to look up each player's playoff history, but let's say each player gets:

1 point for first round playoff exit
2 points for second round playoff exit
3 points for Confernce Finals loss
4 points for Finals loss
5 points for Finals win

Who wins on points?

The thing is you get exactly 0 points for losses.

[Roy The Natural]

I'm Jordan over Lebron. But I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY like the OP's 6/15 point. 6/6 is garbage nonsense spewed by clueless casuals.

I'm so utterly tired of finals records somehow taking precedence over playoff records. There is NOT A SINGLE COHERENT argument that losing in the finals is worse, or more damning than getting knocked out of the playoffs in an earlier round. Yet there's many buffoons and casuals who've somehow deluded themselves into thinking a 1st round exit doesn't count against a player as much as finals loss.

[Roy The Natural]

6/15>3/17 just saying.

I dn't have time ATM to look up each player's playoff history, but let's say each player gets:

1 point for first round playoff exit
2 points for second round playoff exit
3 points for Confernce Finals loss
4 points for Finals loss
5 points for Finals win

Who wins on points?

The thing is you get exactly 0 points for losses.

While I disagree with that posts valuations, your retort is nonsense. Of course overall playoff success matters.

[lakerz12]

6/15>3/17 just saying.

I dn't have time ATM to look up each player's playoff history, but let's say each player gets:

1 point for first round playoff exit
2 points for second round playoff exit
3 points for Confernce Finals loss
4 points for Finals loss
5 points for Finals win

Who wins on points?

Dude

4 points for Finals' loss and 5 points for Finals' win?

You really thought this wasn't crazy?

Come on man...

There isn't a single player, coach, GM, etc. In the history of the NBA that wouldn't rate a Championship waaaay higher than a loss.



It's more like 10 for a Championship, 2 for an appearance. If we're basing it on how people in the NBA actually value it.

Not sure what your scale is based on? Maybe it's based on LeBron's career?

[HomoSapien]

I'm Jordan over Lebron. But I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY like the OP's 6/15 point. 6/6 is garbage nonsense spewed by clueless casuals.

I'm so utterly tired of finals records somehow taking precedence over playoff records. There is NOT A SINGLE COHERENT argument that losing in the finals is worse, or more damning than getting knocked out of the playoffs in an earlier round. Yet there's many buffoons and casuals who've somehow deluded themselves into thinking a 1st round exit doesn't count against a player as much as finals loss.

I'm sorry, I just don't see why it's a good point. Having a flawless finals record is an incredibly important stat that helps depict just how dominant Jordan was (just like it depicts how dominant Russell was) and how he always rose to the occasion. Wilt Chamberlain losing in four finals has always been part of his legacy. He's a great player, but in a sport that's about winning and losing it falls into the discussion. Same with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. Why James should be excused from this is head-scratching.

And to use 6/15 as some way to discredit or lessen Jordan's achievements is silly because it diminishes James' achievements even more.

[Roy The Natural]

I'm Jordan over Lebron. But I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY like the OP's 6/15 point. 6/6 is garbage nonsense spewed by clueless casuals.

I'm so utterly tired of finals records somehow taking precedence over playoff records. There is NOT A SINGLE COHERENT argument that losing in the finals is worse, or more damning than getting knocked out of the playoffs in an earlier round. Yet there's many buffoons and casuals who've somehow deluded themselves into thinking a 1st round exit doesn't count against a player as much as finals loss.

I'm sorry, I just don't see why it's a good point. Having a flawless finals record is an incredibly important stat that helps depict just how dominant Jordan was (just like it depicts how dominant Russell was) and how he always rose to the occasion. Wilt Chamberlain losing in four finals has always been part of his legacy. He's a great player, but in a sport that's about winning and losing it falls into the discussion. Same with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. Why James should be excused from this is head-scratching.

And to use 6/15 as some way to discredit or lessen Jordan's achievements is silly because it diminishes James' achievements even more.

Then you're quite frankly blind. 6/15 is still one of the best there is. There's no shame in not winning the championship in every year you were in the NBA. 6/15 doesn't take away from Jordan's dominance. But 6/6 is often used to whitewash away Jordan's years of failure.

THERE IS NO ARGUMENT that a finals loss is worse than an exit earlier in the playoffs. THERE IS NONE WHATSOEVER. That's all there is to it. It isn't debatable at all. A Finals loss is still vastly more successful of a season than a 1st round exit. That's the way it works. All that finals wins do is tell you that a certain team was the best that year. That's it. You can use them to make further assumptions, but I'm tired of people pretending like all of Jordan's playoff failures don't matter, because hurr durr.. finals record. Jordan's still the GOAT. Don't worry, his 6 finals wins are amazing, he's the GOAT. But let's not absolve him of all playoff failures because it appeals to our own confirmation bias.

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Surprisingly, basketball didn't begin in the 90's. This feels relevant, considering that outside of his team's achievements, he's just Lebron without the sustained excellence.

MJ never had the luxury of needing only 2 rounds to win a title, or getting to play a team with a losing record in the finals.

some of russells rings are less valuable then what you would get from a 25 cent vending machine

Again then you are acknowledging there are other factors than strictly rings to determine who the greatest player ever is. Eras matter, who your opponents matter, your teammates, everything else, etc. . .

In Lebron's last 4 NBA finals he lost the first without his second and third leading scorers and lost the third and 4th finals while playing against a much better opponent. Jordan wouldn't have won any of those finals in his shoes. Kobe wouldn't have even made the finals in his shoes.

[SmoothLefty21]

A key point with Jordan's 6/6 is that once he reached the mountain top he never left it. Many, including myself, don't hold the short '95 stint against him. He clearly wasn't in shape and wasn't himself yet. His years in WAS were whatever; boredom and a hyper-competitiveness that wouldn't stay dormant. An itch that he had to scratch. He was way past his prime and had no championship expectations.

The last six full seasons he played in Chicago he won the championship. It was incredibly impressive. Guessing OP was not old enough to have lived through it. Hell, OP may have not even been alive for it.

[Alatan]

I dn't have time ATM to look up each player's playoff history, but let's say each player gets:

1 point for first round playoff exit
2 points for second round playoff exit
3 points for Confernce Finals loss
4 points for Finals loss
5 points for Finals win

Who wins on points?

The thing is you get exactly 0 points for losses.

While I disagree with that posts valuations, your retort is nonsense. Of course overall playoff success matters.

There is no trophy for 2nd place in the NBA so it is not nonsense.
Playoff success matters but the more removed you are from 1st place the more your success is tainted by favorable matchups, weak opponents, luck etc.

[Roy The Natural]

A key point with Jordan's 6/6 is that once he reached the mountain top he never left it. Many, including myself, don't hold the short '95 stint against him. He clearly wasn't in shape and wasn't himself yet. His years in WAS were whatever; boredom and a hyper-competitiveness that wouldn't stay dormant. An itch that he had to scratch. He was way past his prime and had no championship expectations.

The last six full seasons he played in Chicago he won the championship. It was incredibly impressive. Guessing OP was not old enough to have lived through it. Hell, OP may have not even been alive for it.

Yes. That is the perfect way to look at it. Jordan's peak was obviously the GOAT peak. Let's just not pretend that he didn't have failures as well.

[KyRo23]

Russell is better than LeBron according to people in this thread?

Lmfao mannnn yall need to stop taking your anger out today for not having Valentines, because that take is just silly.

[Repeat 3-peat]

So what was the Cavs path to the finals that year?

In the first round, they faced an Arenas Wizards team, a team that perpetually underachieved and has a well-documented history of their lack of seriousness towards the game. Washington was only 41-41 that year and had almost no bench.
.

Just wanted to note that Gilbert Arenas nor Caron Butler played in that series. So a 41-41 team without it's two best players.

[KyRo23]

6/15>3/17 just saying.

I dn't have time ATM to look up each player's playoff history, but let's say each player gets:

1 point for first round playoff exit
2 points for second round playoff exit
3 points for Confernce Finals loss
4 points for Finals loss
5 points for Finals win

Who wins on points?

The thing is you get exactly 0 points for losses.

Getting 0 points for losses is good and all, but when LeBron's finals record is brought into discussion, he isn't getting 0 for his losses. He's getting negatives for finals losses over losing in earlier rounds lol that's the dumb part.

[Fencer reregistered]

Russell is better than LeBron according to people in this thread?

Lmfao mannnn yall need to stop taking your anger out today for not having Valentines, because that take is just silly.

Russell is #1 on my GOAT list. Lebron is 2/3 with Kareem in some order. That hasn't changed over the past few years.