Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons

Moderators: BombsquadSammy, GeorgeMarcus, PockyCandy, Prez, bwgood77, ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, jamaalstar21, zimpy27

SOdisciple
Sophomore
Posts: 140
And1: 232
Joined: Aug 25, 2017

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#41 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:11 am

Najee12, as a guy that was living in Portland in 2007 and followed that draft to an obsessive degree, I can say with complete confidence that very few, if any, people were saying what you are saying.

Sure, Oden vs. Durant was a real debate worth talking about, but at the end of the day there was never any question that Oden was going to be the pick in the minds of 9 out of 10 people.

The truth is, we never got to see Oden. He is a complete unknown. He had major knee surgery before he even laced up for a single NBA game, bulked up a ton and basically turned into a different player. That said, he still showed flashes of unreal potential, particularly in his 2nd season, that showed why he was so highly regarded. And he was just getting started.

For you to sit there and act like you know what kind of player he was going to be is bogus to me. You think an 18 year old can't figure out how to play without fouling? Give me a break. I'm not saying Oden would be better than Durant, but at the time he was the obvious pick in most circles and to say otherwise is clearly biased revisionist history.
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

Re: Greg Oden = Tree Rollins 

Post#42 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:11 am

monopoman wrote:Whatever dude I am done with this bull you act like what you think is 100% fact quit acting like your opinion reflects on everyone else and everyone agreed with you. I was also old enough to drink when Oden was drafted dude, I don't appreciate you claiming I was **** 8 years old when he was drafted.

Anyways keep rambling on about how you were 100% right and you knew he was going to have major injury problems. His foul issues are being vastly overblown and most big men struggle with foul trouble early in their career. He was partially being limited to 21 MPG because of his injury history.


Well, unless you are married or related to Greg Oden, it shouldn't matter to you that someone did not think that highly of him as an NBA prospect. So why should you care what I think?

So you were impressed with a foul-prone, limited skilled big man who displayed a questionable motor in college and later doctors were accurate in predicting that he would have major leg injuries. That's on you, and that's OK. You saw Oden put up his 8.4 points and 7.3 rebounds per game while collecting a ton of fouls and confused him with Patrick Ewing.

So now that you know there are other people who didn't share that opinion, why don't you sashay off and log off your computer. Because, deep down, you know there is nothing else you can do when it comes to me.
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

Good for you 

Post#43 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:17 am

SOdisciple wrote:Najee12, as a guy that was living in Portland in 2007 and followed that draft to an obsessive degree, I can say with complete confidence that very few, if any, people were saying what you were saying.


I'm glad you lived in Portland in 2007 (insert sarcasm). I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with my opinion of what I thought of Greg Oden? Absolutely nothing.

So who cares what you thought of Greg Oden? More importantly, what makes you think you can tell me what I thought of Oden as a player? He was a foul-prone, limited player seen as having significant potential for leg injuries before Portland drafted him. Did any of that change or did it come true?

So what is your point? Because it looks like Oden's injury potential did happen and he was never more than a foul-prone limited player when he did play.
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
User avatar
monopoman
General Manager
Posts: 8,697
And1: 3,295
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
     

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#44 » by monopoman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:21 am

SOdisciple wrote:Najee12, as a guy that was living in Portland in 2007 and followed that draft to an obsessive degree, I can say with complete confidence that very few, if any, people were saying what you are saying.

Sure, Oden vs. Durant was a real debate worth talking about, but at the end of the day there was never any question that Oden was going to be the pick in the minds of 9 out of 10 people.

The truth is, we never got to see Oden. He is a complete unknown. He had major knee surgery before he even laced up for a single NBA game, bulked up a ton and basically turned into a different player. That said, he still showed flashes of unreal potential, particularly in his 2nd season, that showed why he was so highly regarded. And he was just getting started.

For you to sit there and act like you know what kind of player he was going to be is bogus to me. You think an 18 year old can't figure out how to play without fouling? Give me a break. I'm not saying Oden would be better than Durant, but at the time he was the obvious pick in most circles and to say otherwise is clearly biased revisionist history.


Thanks for being the voice of reason here, I swear it seems like half of the NBA world has revised their minds on Oden to a great degree over what most thought back then. They love to take their hindsight and apply it to Oden to a high degree, acting like how most thought KD was a better pick or some ****.

I remember the combine for Durant not going well at all a lot thought he would never have an NBA players body when he couldn't bench 185 pounds once. Dude was a literal twig, pretty sure my youngest brother who was a freshman in high school at the time could bench more than a ready to enter the NBA Durant.
Duke4life831
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 21,122
And1: 33,111
Joined: Jun 16, 2015
   

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#45 » by Duke4life831 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:27 am

The assumption I have going into this is that we are trying to base this off of strictly them as prospects entering the league. So factoring that in and factoring in the style of play today.

1. Ad
2. Zion
3. Oden


4. Simmons

Simmons wasn't on the same level as a prospect as the other guys. There were a good amount of people saying they would take Ingram over Simmons. The other 3 guys (plus KD) I think the majority of people kind of view them on their own tier as the best prospects post LeBron. That group of 4 guys I think most viewed them coming into the league with pretty much the viewpoint of injury will be the only thing that will prevent them from being great.

For me AD and Zion is a coinflip to me, but id go with AD most likely going #1 because of his size. Zion #2 because he is Zion, had arguably the most dominant college freshman season in 30+ years. Oden I think would still be viewed as an elite prospect, but I think he would go 3rd because he just doesn't quite fit today's game as well as the first 2 guys.
SOdisciple
Sophomore
Posts: 140
And1: 232
Joined: Aug 25, 2017

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#46 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:27 am

monopoman wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:Najee12, as a guy that was living in Portland in 2007 and followed that draft to an obsessive degree, I can say with complete confidence that very few, if any, people were saying what you are saying.

Sure, Oden vs. Durant was a real debate worth talking about, but at the end of the day there was never any question that Oden was going to be the pick in the minds of 9 out of 10 people.

The truth is, we never got to see Oden. He is a complete unknown. He had major knee surgery before he even laced up for a single NBA game, bulked up a ton and basically turned into a different player. That said, he still showed flashes of unreal potential, particularly in his 2nd season, that showed why he was so highly regarded. And he was just getting started.

For you to sit there and act like you know what kind of player he was going to be is bogus to me. You think an 18 year old can't figure out how to play without fouling? Give me a break. I'm not saying Oden would be better than Durant, but at the time he was the obvious pick in most circles and to say otherwise is clearly biased revisionist history.


Thanks for being the voice of reason here, I swear it seems like half of the NBA world has revised their minds on Oden to a great degree over what most thought back then. They love to take their hindsight and apply it to Oden to a high degree, acting like how most thought KD was a better pick or some ****.

I remember the combine for Durant not going well at all a lot thought he would never have an NBA players body when he couldn't bench 185 pounds once. Dude was a literal twig, pretty sure my youngest brother who was a freshman in high school at the time could bench more than a ready to enter the NBA Durant.

I think it's just human nature honestly. People want to be right and validate their own credibility.

These arguments are pointless though, since there is literally no possible way to prove anything. I generally like to stay away from them but I couldn't help but chime in this time because it just felt like a lot of nonsense being spewed to me.
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

They call him "Mr. Glass" 

Post#47 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:28 am

monopoman wrote:Because this guy had a magical crystal ball and knew the future, he knew Oden would have that injury but for some reason he hasn't used that same crystal ball to win the lottery I guess he wants to be fair to other players.


Medical doctors examined Greg Oden's legs before the 2007 NBA draft and said he had the potential to have significant leg injuries. Moreover, doctors reportedly discovered that Oden had a bulging disk in his back and had not yet regained full flexion of the wrist he had broken more than one year earlier.

https://www.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/09/oden_injures_knee.html

It has nothing to do with some "magic crystal ball." Oden was considered a major medical risk coming into the NBA. What medical doctors speculated came true almost immediately when a doctor determined during a routine exam that Oden needed microfracture surgery shortly after playing in Summer League. Oden bumped knees with Corey Maggette and missed 15 games. Oden was having microfracture surgery on his knees three years after his final game in Portland.

Even without the other issues (foul-prone, limited skills, etc.), medical doctors accurately predicted Oden would have potentially major injuries and apparently longer-than-expected recovery time from those injuries. It sounds like you need to read more stories and educate yourself because it wasn't a shock about Oden's potential injury history.
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
User avatar
Clay Davis
Starter
Posts: 2,410
And1: 2,642
Joined: Nov 06, 2013
 

Re: Greg Oden = Tree Rollins 

Post#48 » by Clay Davis » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:43 am

Najee12 wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:Well let's just shut the drawer on this argument because everyone knows there's no higher standard for credibility than being a journalist.


It comes only second to a teen-ager on his phone typing about the NBA while working at a pizza shop, right?

I don't know if you've left your house lately, but pizza shops are closed in many places as they are not deemed essential services.
We talkin' 'bout money laundering? In WEST BALTIMORE?!
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

Move on, troll 

Post#49 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:47 am

Clay Davis wrote:I don't know if you've left your house lately, but pizza shops are closed in many places as they are not deemed essential services.


If that is the case, then you need to get a new job because those weak comebacks won't pay your bills.
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
jlokine
Starter
Posts: 2,491
And1: 2,376
Joined: Jun 08, 2013
     

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#50 » by jlokine » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:54 am

oden had knee issues dating back to grade 8, i think.. his medical report had some red flags as a poster had pointed out.. i would not have picked him just on that alone, even if he had superstar talent..
SOdisciple
Sophomore
Posts: 140
And1: 232
Joined: Aug 25, 2017

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#51 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 am

jlokine wrote:oden had knee issues dating back to grade 8, i think.. his medical report had some red flags as a poster had pointed out.. i would not have picked him just on that alone, even if he had superstar talent..

Source? I don't recall hearing a single thing about Oden's knees before he was drafted.
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

Greg Oden's hip 

Post#52 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:16 am

SOdisciple wrote:
jlokine wrote:oden had knee issues dating back to grade 8, i think.. his medical report had some red flags as a poster had pointed out.. i would not have picked him just on that alone, even if he had superstar talent..

Source? I don't recall hearing a single thing about Oden's knees before he was drafted.


When Greg Oden was in sixth grade, he grew so much that his right hip detached from its socket. After having surgery to place two pins in the joint, it left his right leg shorter than his left and walking with a gait that resembles a limp.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19868061/cursed-body-was-blessing-greg-oden-headed-back-ohio-state

So let me guess: You saw nothing wrong with a seven-footer diagnosed by medical doctors as likely to have significant leg injuries, and who already had a wrist injury that took more than one year to heal, a bulging disk in his back and had a hip injury in the sixth grade that led him to have one leg longer than the other leg.
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
JRoy
Pro Prospect
Posts: 750
And1: 373
Joined: Feb 27, 2019

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#53 » by JRoy » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:18 am

I was the last to give up on Oden and the disappointment still stings.

Glad he has managed to put his playing career behind him and move on with his life.

Of course, a couple million dollars makes that a little easier.
SOdisciple
Sophomore
Posts: 140
And1: 232
Joined: Aug 25, 2017

Re: Greg Oden's hip 

Post#54 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:24 am

Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:
jlokine wrote:oden had knee issues dating back to grade 8, i think.. his medical report had some red flags as a poster had pointed out.. i would not have picked him just on that alone, even if he had superstar talent..

Source? I don't recall hearing a single thing about Oden's knees before he was drafted.


When Greg Oden was in sixth grade, he grew so much that his right hip detached from its socket. After having surgery to place two pins in the joint, it left his right leg shorter than his left and walking with a gait that resembles a limp.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19868061/cursed-body-was-blessing-greg-oden-headed-back-ohio-state

So let me guess: You saw nothing wrong with a seven-footer diagnosed by medical doctors as likely to have significant leg injuries, and who also had a wrist that took more than one year to heal, a bulging disk and had a hip injury in the sixth grade that led him to have one leg longer than the other leg.

Yes and that was something that was known all along, and up until the NBA hadn't affected his play at all. He also had no isolated issues with his knees to my knowledge.

And you act like Oden was a walking injury concern back then, which he wasn't. Sure some had doubts, but there were no major injuries on his record to point to other than a freak wrist injury that happened in college. But of course it's easy to look at things through the lens of present knowledge. You also seem to ignore the clear concerns that were surrounding Durant at the time, that he was basically a twig who knew how to dribble a basketball. Both camps had concerns.
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

My back, my knee, my ... you know the rest 

Post#55 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:33 am

SOdisciple wrote:And you act like Oden was a waking injury concern back then, which he wasn't. Sure some had doubts, but there were no major injuries on his record to point to other than a freak wrist injury that happened in college. But of course it's easy to look at things through the lens of present knowledge. You also seem to ignore the clear concerns that were surrounding Durant at the time, that he was basically a twig who knew how to dribble a basketball. Both camps had concerns.


Kevin Durant being a skinny teen-ager is not nearly as big of a concern as a seven-footer having hip surgery in the sixth grade that caused him to walk with a limp and the seven-footer taking more than one year to recover from a broken wrist.

Oh, yeah: The same seven-footer showed up for his NBA exam with a bulging disk in his back and exams showed he had the potential for significant leg injuries. A few months later after playing essentially scrimmage basketball, the seven-footer wakes up and his knee is in pain to the point where he needed the first of three microfracture surgeries on both knees.

Is that the argument you're using? Because if you're saying having hip surgery in the sixth grade "were no major injuries on his record" then you are being delusional.
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
User avatar
AirCanadaMouse
Starter
Posts: 2,015
And1: 1,666
Joined: Nov 10, 2014
       

Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#56 » by AirCanadaMouse » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:36 am

King4Day wrote:
Dupp wrote:Oden is the most overrated prospect of all time. Taking him over KD is one of the worst draft choices ever even if he was healthy.


Hindsight says they should have taken KD but I don't think anyone pegged him to be a superstar. Oden averaged nearly a double/double in college,was the perfect fit next to Brandon Roy and was coming in at a time where the leagues bigs (Shaq, Ben Wallace, etc.) were on the downside. So Oden could have kept the era of bigs going and potentially been at the top there.


With one hand.
Image
Thank you Clutch0z24
User avatar
Dupp
RealGM
Posts: 102,502
And1: 53,001
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Location: Billy Crystals lap
 

Re: Greg Oden 

Post#57 » by Dupp » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:40 am

monopoman wrote:
Dupp wrote:
Najee12 wrote:
I saw Kevin Durant and Greg Oden play in high school, and Durant was by far the better player. Oden was incredibly foul prone, had no real offensive skill outside of the paint and had a questionable motor when he was at Ohio State.

Oden had games where he would put up 7 points and 4 rebounds with four fouls in 11 minutes, so his 15 points and 9 rebounds per game average had wild swings. Then when training doctors looked at Oden's legs before the 2007 draft and saw he had the potential for suffering major leg injuries, he was radioactive to me.



People get pissy about Oden for whatever reason but he at no point was a bette prospect than KD


Tell that to every other GM in the NBA at the time except one, and to every journalist in the time when 95% of them though Oden was better. KD was a skinny kid when he entered the league that couldn't bench press 185 pounds once.



Many GMs are wrong a lot of the time. Luka just went 3rd and he couldn’t have been more well known.

If the bench press thing came into consideration it just shows how inept a lot of gms are. You don’t need to bench press a ball. Like kd said himself he couldn’t lift **** and proceeded to smoke everyone on the court.

What was more important and relevant was his length and skill at his size.
Neato wrote:I'd also like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone for being a neato
SOdisciple
Sophomore
Posts: 140
And1: 232
Joined: Aug 25, 2017

Re: My back, my knee, my ... you know the rest 

Post#58 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:41 am

Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:And you act like Oden was a waking injury concern back then, which he wasn't. Sure some had doubts, but there were no major injuries on his record to point to other than a freak wrist injury that happened in college. But of course it's easy to look at things through the lens of present knowledge. You also seem to ignore the clear concerns that were surrounding Durant at the time, that he was basically a twig who knew how to dribble a basketball. Both camps had concerns.


Kevin Durant being a skinny teen-ager is not nearly as big of a concern as a seven-footer having hip surgery in the sixth grade that caused him to walk with a limp and the seven-footer taking more than one year to recover from a broken wrist.

Oh, yeah: The same seven-footer showed up for his NBA exam with a bulging disk in his back and exams showed he had the potential for significant leg injuries. A few months later after playing essentially scrimmage basketball, the seven-footer wakes up and his knee is in pain to point where he needed the first of three microfracture surgeries on both knees.

Is that the argument you're using? Because if you're saying having hip surgery in the sixth grade "were no major injuries on his record" then you are being delusional.

Call the NBA delusional then because I believe every GM in the NBA outside of Danny Ainge said they would have taken Oden if they had the pick.
Najee12
Pro Prospect
Posts: 890
And1: 709
Joined: May 18, 2015
       

Kevin Durant's bench press 

Post#59 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 am

Dupp wrote:
monopoman wrote:Tell that to every other GM in the NBA at the time except one, and to every journalist in the time when 95% of them though Oden was better. KD was a skinny kid when he entered the league that couldn't bench press 185 pounds once.


Many GMs are wrong a lot of the time. Luka just went 3rd and he couldn’t have been more well known.

If the bench press thing came into consideration it just shows how inept a lot of gms are. You don’t need to bench press a ball. Like kd said himself he couldn’t lift **** and proceeded to smoke everyone on the court.

What was more important and relevant was his length and skill at his size.


I thought the bench press argument is a pretty dumb one when we are talking about evaluating basketball players. It certainly is relevant in football in evaluating lineman and some skill positions that call for strength, but not for a basketball player whose game is based on shooting, athleticism and length.

Not to mention the NBA GMs still were and are operating under the premise of "all things being or near equal, take the big man over the wing player."
Kevin Johnson isn't "Michael Jordan" famous ... he's "Mitch Richmond" famous
User avatar
monopoman
General Manager
Posts: 8,697
And1: 3,295
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
     

Re: Greg Oden 

Post#60 » by monopoman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 am

Dupp wrote:
monopoman wrote:
Dupp wrote:

People get pissy about Oden for whatever reason but he at no point was a bette prospect than KD


Tell that to every other GM in the NBA at the time except one, and to every journalist in the time when 95% of them though Oden was better. KD was a skinny kid when he entered the league that couldn't bench press 185 pounds once.



Many GMs are wrong a lot of the time. Luka just went 3rd and he couldn’t have been more well known.

If the bench press thing came into consideration it just shows how inept a lot of gms are. You don’t need to bench press a ball. Like kd said himself he couldn’t lift **** and proceeded to smoke everyone on the court.

What was more important and relevant was his length and skill at his size.


Plenty of NBA players have underwhelmed due to lack of strength KD worked on that aspect of his faults as time went on. You look at pictures of the KD before he played 1 NBA game and now and it's like night and day. Trust me if he would have stayed in the same physical mold he would have been nowhere near as good as he is now.

KD more recently:
Image

KD as a Sonic:
Image

Guys that lack upper body strength usually get bullied around, KD realized that and bulked up. I also want to point out it's not like he fell to the 5th or 6th pick because of that Combine, you act like every scout thought he was trash because he couldn't bench 185.

Return to The General Board