Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons

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Re: Greg Oden 

Post#61 » by Dupp » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:51 am

monopoman wrote:
Dupp wrote:
monopoman wrote:
Tell that to every other GM in the NBA at the time except one, and to every journalist in the time when 95% of them though Oden was better. KD was a skinny kid when he entered the league that couldn't bench press 185 pounds once.



Many GMs are wrong a lot of the time. Luka just went 3rd and he couldn’t have been more well known.

If the bench press thing came into consideration it just shows how inept a lot of gms are. You don’t need to bench press a ball. Like kd said himself he couldn’t lift **** and proceeded to smoke everyone on the court.

What was more important and relevant was his length and skill at his size.


Plenty of NBA players have underwhelmed due to lack of strength KD worked on that aspect of his faults as time went on. You look at pictures of the KD before he played 1 NBA game and now and it's like night and day. Trust me if he would have stayed in the same physical mold he would have been nowhere near as good as he is now.

KD more recently:
Image

KD as a Sonic:
Image

Guys that lack upper body strength usually get bullied around, KD realized that and bulked up.



Of course he was never gonna stay like that though he was kid. Everyone in the league fills out. He’s still insanely long and skilled which is what Portland should have focussed on.
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Re: Greg Oden 

Post#62 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:56 am

Dupp wrote:
monopoman wrote:
Dupp wrote:

Many GMs are wrong a lot of the time. Luka just went 3rd and he couldn’t have been more well known.

If the bench press thing came into consideration it just shows how inept a lot of gms are. You don’t need to bench press a ball. Like kd said himself he couldn’t lift **** and proceeded to smoke everyone on the court.

What was more important and relevant was his length and skill at his size.


Plenty of NBA players have underwhelmed due to lack of strength KD worked on that aspect of his faults as time went on. You look at pictures of the KD before he played 1 NBA game and now and it's like night and day. Trust me if he would have stayed in the same physical mold he would have been nowhere near as good as he is now.

KD more recently:
Image

KD as a Sonic:
Image

Guys that lack upper body strength usually get bullied around, KD realized that and bulked up.



Of course he was never gonna stay like that though he was kid. Everyone in the league fills out. He’s still insanely long and skilled which is what Portland should have focussed on.

I think what Portland was focusing on was that they had a 7-foot freak-of-nature athlete with incredible defensive instincts that hadn't lost a home game since middle school ready to anchor their defense for the next decade. Injuries suck.
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OK, if you say so 

Post#63 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:00 am

SOdisciple wrote:Call the NBA delusional then because I believe every GM in the NBA outside of Danny Ainge said they would have taken Oden if they had the pick.


It's not the first time general managers missed on evaluating players, nor will it be the last. It particularly applies when they are blinded to what they want to see, such as the NBA's historical biases toward drafting big men. I can name plenty of other examples throughout NBA history.

In Greg Oden's case, anyone overlooking Oden's medical file and his rather uneven play at Ohio State is more of a case of envisioning what they wanted him to be. Again, he came to the NBA medical exam with a bulging disk in his back, a wrist that had not healed in more than one year, having hip surgery in the sixth grade that caused one leg to be longer than the other -- and oh, yeah, the doctors accurately predicted he would have significant leg injuries.

It's not a shock that Oden did have medical injuries (he entered the NBA with medical injuries), except for people who want to rationalize to themselves what they thought Oden would become. As you can tell, social pressure doesn't work on me.
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#64 » by swe_suns » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:05 am

1. Zion
2. AD
3. GO
.
.
.
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999. Ben "I can't and refuse to shoot in an NBA game but for some ridiculous reason I shoot jumpers in my warm up routine and during the summer" Simmons. Disgrace to basketball.
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Re: OK, if you say so 

Post#65 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:05 am

Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:Call the NBA delusional then because I believe every GM in the NBA outside of Danny Ainge said they would have taken Oden if they had the pick.


It's not the first time general managers missed on evaluating players, nor will it be the last. It particularly applies when they are blinded to what they want to see, such as the NBA's historical biases toward drafting big men. I can name plenty of other examples throughout NBA history.

In Greg Oden's case, anyone overlooking Oden's medical file and his rather uneven play at Ohio State is more of a case of envisioning what they wanted him to be. Again, he came to the NBA medical exam with a bulging disk in his back, a wrist that had not healed in more than one year, having hip surgery in the sixth grade that caused one leg to be longer than the other -- and oh, yeah, the doctors accurately predicted he would have significant leg injuries.

It's not a shock that Oden did have medical injuries (he entered the NBA with medical injuries), except for people who want to rationalize to themselves what they thought Oden would become. As you can tell, social pressure doesn't work on me.

Yes it's clear that you think you knew better. Whether that's actually true or not remains to be seen, but it's clear you think that.
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Re: Greg Oden's hip 

Post#66 » by jlokine » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:16 am

SOdisciple wrote:
Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:Source? I don't recall hearing a single thing about Oden's knees before he was drafted.


When Greg Oden was in sixth grade, he grew so much that his right hip detached from its socket. After having surgery to place two pins in the joint, it left his right leg shorter than his left and walking with a gait that resembles a limp.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19868061/cursed-body-was-blessing-greg-oden-headed-back-ohio-state

So let me guess: You saw nothing wrong with a seven-footer diagnosed by medical doctors as likely to have significant leg injuries, and who also had a wrist that took more than one year to heal, a bulging disk and had a hip injury in the sixth grade that led him to have one leg longer than the other leg.

Yes and that was something that was known all along, and up until the NBA hadn't affected his play at all. He also had no isolated issues with his knees to my knowledge.

And you act like Oden was a walking injury concern back then, which he wasn't. Sure some had doubts, but there were no major injuries on his record to point to other than a freak wrist injury that happened in college. But of course it's easy to look at things through the lens of present knowledge. You also seem to ignore the clear concerns that were surrounding Durant at the time, that he was basically a twig who knew how to dribble a basketball. Both camps had concerns.


sorry, i dont have source now.. i tried googling it.. other than the nba stuff and the wrist injury and what the guy said about his hip, i got nothing for you, but i did recall he had an extensive medical history for a 19 year old..

that could be because his size gave him the advantage to limit the wear and tear. also the high school and college schedule are not full time basketball. in college, he debuted in dec. played till national championship game on april 2.. i am not familiar with a college schedule but how many games is that over a 4 month period vs an nba schedule where he was asked to play 60 games over that stretch?

if i were any other GM, i'd take him... if i were ainge, buford, riley, or anyone who's job isnt on the line if they didnt make that pick, i wouldnt have made that pick..

having said all that, i would never consider him a bust.. anthony bennett is a bust.. careers derailing an injury is not the fault of a player.. a player unable to play up to expectations, that's on the player..
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Greg Oden, athletic freak?!? 

Post#67 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:25 am

SOdisciple wrote:I think what Portland was focusing on was that they had a 7-foot freak-of-nature athlete with incredible defensive instincts that hadn't lost a home game since middle school ready to anchor their defense for the next decade. Injuries suck.


There was nothing freakishly athletic about Greg Oden, in terms of NBA standards.



Shaquille O'Neal was freakishly athletic, especially given his width and strength. David Robinson was like a seven-foot small forward -- that is an example of freakishly athletic. Hakeem Olajuwon was freakishly athletic with his size and hand/foot coordination. Ralph Sampson was another freakishly athletic big man. In today's NBA, Giannis Antetokounmpo would be an athletic freak. Anthony Davis is uncommonly athletic for a big man.

Oden wasn't in the same class athletically as younger DeAndre Jordan or Javale McGee who have exceptional leaping ability for big men. Oden was more along the lines of a more burly, less athletic Andre Drummond. Oden literally lumbered down the court; the only time he showed any sense of athleticism is when he tried to do a chin-up after he dunked. Oden was more like Erick Dampier, if anything.

As much as people on these boards love to talk about how today's emphasis on 3-point shooting, small ball play, positionless basketball and switching defenses has diminished the value of big men, Oden could have even less value than Drummond and Whiteside. Oden had no semblance of an outside game and little if any low-post game. He certainly had no quickness for switching on defense. He probably would be even more foul prone in today's NBA, if that is possible.
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You've got nothing 

Post#68 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:32 am

SOdisciple wrote:Yes it's clear that you think you knew better. Whether that's actually true or not remains to be seen, but it's clear you think that.


Once again, you're the one who is arguing taking a 19-year-old who had hip surgery in the sixth grade, one leg shorter than the other, needed more than one year to recover from a broken wrist and later had leg surgeries for doing nothing more than playing scrimmage games. That's not even counting the question marks of his play coming into the league.

So, when can we see that bust of Greg Oden in Springfield?
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Re: Greg Oden, athletic freak?!? 

Post#69 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:34 am

Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:I think what Portland was focusing on was that they had a 7-foot freak-of-nature athlete with incredible defensive instincts that hadn't lost a home game since middle school ready to anchor their defense for the next decade. Injuries suck.


There was nothing freakishly athletic about Greg Oden, in terms of NBA standards.



Shaquille O'Neal was freakishly athletic, especially given his width and strength. David Robinson was like a seven-foot small forward -- that is an example of freakishly athletic. Hakeem Olajuwon was freakishly athletic with his size and hand/foot coordination. Ralph Sampson was another freakishly athletic big man. In today's NBA, Giannis Antetokounmpo would be an athletic freak. Anthony Davis is uncommonly athletic for a big man.

Oden wasn't in the same class athletically as younger DeAndre Jordan or Javale McGee who have exceptional leaping ability for big men. Oden was more along the lines of a more burly, less athletic Andre Drummond or maybe Hasaan Whiteside. Oden literally lumbered down the court; the only time he showed any sense of athleticism is when he tried to do a chin-up after he dunked.

As much as people on these boards love to talk about how today's emphasis on 3-point shooting, small ball play, positionless basketball and switching defenses has diminished the value of big men, Oden could have even less value than Drummond and Whiteside. Oden had no semblance of an outside game and little if any low-post game. He certainly had no quickness for switching on defense. He probably would be even more foul prone in today's NBA, if that is possible. Oden was more like Erick Dampier, if anything.

You're quite amusing and very convenient with how you like to twist things in attempt to swing an argument in your favor. I had already stated beforehand that Oden had put on 30 or so pounds after his first knee surgery and was much bigger and more lumbering than he was when he played in college and was first drafted into the pros. At the draft combine he had a 36" vertical (higher than KD) and impressive sprint times to go along with visibly solid lateral quickness and the ability to react quickly on defense, hence the Russell comparisons.

But of course you are going to use the worst possible version of Oden, the one of him after his subsequent knee surgery and weight gain, in an attempt to bolster your argument that he must have been a bum healthy or not. There is really no point in arguing with a person who has decided beforehand that their agenda must be accomplished and that they cannot be wrong, because that's very much the impression I'm starting to get from this conversation.

Najee12 wrote:So, when can we see that bust of Greg Oden in Springfield?


Thank you for confirming that you are a troll. Bye.
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Stop being a chump 

Post#70 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:46 am

SOdisciple wrote:But of course you are going to use the worst possible version of Oden, the one of him after his subsequent knee surgery and weight gain, in an attempt to bolster your argument that he must have been a bum healthy or not.


The previous video was an apparent culmination of Greg Oden's Portland days. There is no such NBA video of pre-injury Oden in existence because he came into the NBA with major injuries (he missed his first season when a routine exam showed his knees were so damaged that he needed microfracture surgery).

This is Oden at Ohio State:



You're acting like Oden became Hot Plate Williams in the NBA; he added some more muscle (something most NBA players do when they come into the league from college), but Oden already was a big man in college. It's the same Oden -- scoring a few feet from the basket (mostly on dunks), showing rudimentary skill, laboring up and down the floor. Where is all this freakishly athletic skill? Very mechanical in the post, predictable, getting by mostly on strength. He's basically more like Erick Dampier or a more burly, less athletic Andre Drummond.

And keep in mind, these are the highlights. We are not talking about the games where Florida engulfed him in their regular-season matchup or the games where he had four fouls in 10 minutes of play and he looked lethargic. And that is considering Oden had a significant size advantage of most players in college.

Just take the "L" and move on.
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#71 » by Antinomy » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 am

Some of you just won’t learn that you don’t win with a traditional big man in today’s nba. No way should Oden go #1 even with his potential.

AD is a big from the line of KG, Duncan, etc so he goes first. Hybrid forwards like Simmons & Zion should go next.
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#72 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:49 am

People think AD’s hype was even in the ball park of Zion’s? Right or wrong, the hype wasn’t close.


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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#73 » by Egg Nog » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:36 am

J___Av wrote: Are people forgetting already how hyped Zion was this year? He was literally the most hyped player since Lebron. He would (deservedly or not) easily go #1 over anyone else


Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#74 » by Fencer reregistered » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:12 am

People DID worry about Oden's health. Between that and positional evolution, I'm in the camp that AD would indeed go first.
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#75 » by King4Day » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:41 pm

Dupp wrote:
King4Day wrote:
Dupp wrote:Oden is the most overrated prospect of all time. Taking him over KD is one of the worst draft choices ever even if he was healthy.


Hindsight says they should have taken KD but I don't think anyone pegged him to be a superstar. Oden averaged nearly a double/double in college,was the perfect fit next to Brandon Roy and was coming in at a time where the leagues bigs (Shaq, Ben Wallace, etc.) were on the downside. So Oden could have kept the era of bigs going and potentially been at the top there.



KD averaged 26 and 11 on great percentages. Dude had a lot of tools, great skill set and a huge offensive upside back then. I don’t really see it as hindsight with kd. The potential was always there, he didn’t explode out of no where


I'm more talking him being in the conversation of best player in the world.
Similar to Doncic. People knew he'd be good, but nobody saw this coming.
Portland probably takes him otherwise and figures out his fit with Roy later.
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Greg Oden scouting report 

Post#76 » by Najee12 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:44 pm

Here is a scouting report on Greg Oden from 2007 (updated with edits from 2009).

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Greg-Oden-237/

Even then, there were major questions about Oden's health, durability, the fact he basically overpowered considerably lesser players, had a very rudimentary offensive game, etc. Even at Ohio State, there were still too many long stretches in which he was "almost completely silent, not calling for the ball despite his obvious natural advantages over the weak frontcourts in the Big 10 (per the scouting report)."

I believe some of you think Oden's performance in the 2007 national championship game vs. Florida was a typical game from Oden. In fact, it was one of the more infrequent games he played like that. The first time Oden faced Florida in the regular season, Al Horford and Joakim Noah shut him down and got him into his customary foul trouble.

I saw plenty of games Oden played in Ohio State (both non-conference and Big 10 games), and he regularly had games where he literally stood on the court and looked disengaged. He would put up 9 points and 3 rebounds with four fouls one game (like he did in the Sweet 16 vs. Tennessee) and turn around and play as he did vs. Memphis the next game (17 points and 9 rebounds). One-fourth of his points and more than 20 percent of Oden's rebounds in six NCAA tournament games game from the Florida game.

So there were major questions about Oden's game then. Throw in the NBA medical exams and more information about having major surgery with his hip, one leg being longer than the other leg (causing him to walk with a limp), the bulging disk and the discovery he had the potential for significant leg injuries, and it's a no-brainer to me not to consider him, and I'm not surprised his career turned out the way it did. Moreover, I never thought Oden was a better player than Kevin Durant - not in high school, college or the NBA.
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#77 » by The_Hater » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:54 pm

cujolll wrote:If all of these former #1 overall picks were in the same draft, who would go number 1 overall and why? What would make that individual standout in such a talented draft class to go # ? I think Oden would go first due to size, athleticism, and defensive prowess. Your thoughts please.


If the draft was held today instead 10 years ago the answer might be different because the value of big men has gone down considerably.

But if this was 2005-2015 or so, the answer would be Oden. He was considered one of the best prospects in draft history. Scouts knew who he was at age 14, he dominated high school, was dominate during his one year of college. And true Centers were still considered the rarest of rare commodities in the late 90’s.
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Re: Greg Oden vs Anthony Davis vs Zion Williamson vs Ben Simmons 

Post#78 » by UcanUwill » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:57 pm

Egg Nog wrote:Coming out of college, without 20/20 hindsight:

1) Oden
2) Davis
3) Zion
4) Simmons

This is based on my memory of the hype, each player in their own respective eras.

JasonStern wrote:Oden had the most hype of any of the listed players, but Center game was still relevant when Oden was drafted. doubt he'd go above Davis in the modern game.


This is a fair point. Pretty tough to put Oden first if it was all in today's league.


Davis didnt have as much hype as Zion, he was good number one pick, but also benefited from being in a weak class. His offensive game was very questionable, no one really expected him to become scoring machine he is now. I think if you put a list based on hype its Zion and Oden as easy first two picks, not clear which one number one, but probably Zion, Davis is clear 3rd, Simmons is clear 4th/
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Re: Stop being a chump 

Post#79 » by SOdisciple » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:26 pm

Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:But of course you are going to use the worst possible version of Oden, the one of him after his subsequent knee surgery and weight gain, in an attempt to bolster your argument that he must have been a bum healthy or not.


The previous video was an apparent culmination of Greg Oden's Portland days. There is no such NBA video of pre-injury Oden in existence because he came into the NBA with major injuries (he missed his first season when a routine exam showed his knees were so damaged that he needed microfracture surgery).

This is Oden at Ohio State:



You're acting like Oden became Hot Plate Williams in the NBA; he added some more muscle (something most NBA players do when they come into the league from college), but Oden already was a big man in college. It's the same Oden -- scoring a few feet from the basket (mostly on dunks), showing rudimentary skill, laboring up and down the floor. Where is all this freakishly athletic skill? Very mechanical in the post, predictable, getting by mostly on strength. He's basically more like Erick Dampier or a more burly, less athletic Andre Drummond.

And keep in mind, these are the highlights. We are not talking about the games where Florida engulfed him in their regular-season matchup or the games where he had four fouls in 10 minutes of play and he looked lethargic. And that is considering Oden had a significant size advantage of most players in college.

Just take the "L" and move on.

There's no "L" to be taken. It's your opinion that Oden would not have been a great player had he not gotten injured, an opinion I and many others do not agree with. And since there is no possible way to prove otherwise, it's completely pointless to discuss further. You've made it clear what you think and I've made it clear what I think. Agree to disagree, clearly.
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Re: Stop being a chump 

Post#80 » by NY2k1 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:36 pm

SOdisciple wrote:
Najee12 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:But of course you are going to use the worst possible version of Oden, the one of him after his subsequent knee surgery and weight gain, in an attempt to bolster your argument that he must have been a bum healthy or not.


The previous video was an apparent culmination of Greg Oden's Portland days. There is no such NBA video of pre-injury Oden in existence because he came into the NBA with major injuries (he missed his first season when a routine exam showed his knees were so damaged that he needed microfracture surgery).

This is Oden at Ohio State:



You're acting like Oden became Hot Plate Williams in the NBA; he added some more muscle (something most NBA players do when they come into the league from college), but Oden already was a big man in college. It's the same Oden -- scoring a few feet from the basket (mostly on dunks), showing rudimentary skill, laboring up and down the floor. Where is all this freakishly athletic skill? Very mechanical in the post, predictable, getting by mostly on strength. He's basically more like Erick Dampier or a more burly, less athletic Andre Drummond.

And keep in mind, these are the highlights. We are not talking about the games where Florida engulfed him in their regular-season matchup or the games where he had four fouls in 10 minutes of play and he looked lethargic. And that is considering Oden had a significant size advantage of most players in college.

Just take the "L" and move on.

There's no "L" to be taken. It's your opinion that Oden would not have been a great player had he not gotten injured, an opinion I and many others do not agree with. And since there is no possible way to prove otherwise, it's completely pointless to discuss further. You've made it clear what you think and I've made it clear what I think. Agree to disagree, clearly.


This.

The fact is, nobody knows how Oden's career would have turned out had he stayed healthy. For anyone to say otherwise, is lying to themselves or trying to validate their own agenda.

Oden had issues with his knees before getting drafted, sure. But so did Embiid and he's had a great career up to now and he's been healthy for the most part. Those are the breaks.

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