ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1141 » by lazybatman » Wed May 20, 2020 4:37 am

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
lazybatman wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
:lol: :lol:

Pippen does not EQUAL Curry.

And Kukoc definitely doesn't equal Klay.


Mike>>>>>>>>>KD
Pippen & Rodman > Curry and Klay
Kukoc=Draymond
Phil >>>>>>>>>Kerr


Kukoc = Draymond

See now I know you're either trolling or flat out clueless.


Your boy is averaging a mighty 8-6-6 @39%FG this season. He's a glorified role player like Pat Beverly who fit perfectly into that system.

4 Atlanta Hawks were All Stars in 2016 after they lead the league in regular season. Then Lebron swept them, while perfecting the bottle flip on the sidelines. Draymond is just like those guys, except he happened to be on the Warriors team. Calm down.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1142 » by Effigy » Wed May 20, 2020 6:47 am

Profound23 wrote:
Mind_Odyssey wrote:Is it fair or unfair to say Scottie needing to get paid is what ended the Bulls dynasty?

I think if you keep him, MJ, and Rodman’s corpse, you win in 99’


I would say listening to Reinsdorf and Phil, the blame would go in this order:

Reinsdorf
Krause
Phil


Reinsdorf admitted he wasn't willing to pay for the team to come back which is foolish considering how much they made out of each championship, ticket sales, and all other revenue. He said he wanted MJ/Phil back but wanted to re-tool to save money. Well, he should have known Phil and MJ weren't going to play with a bunch of newcomers. He stated "it may have taken 2-3 years, but we would have gotten back there." Well, in 2-3 years MJ would have been a shell of himself (see his Wizard days). A shell of MJ is still better than most players, but not good enough to win titles.

Krause was against keeping Phil, making Phil and Scottie feel unwanted. He let it be known from day 1 of the new season that he was going to rebuild everything just because he could. (I am certain Reinsdorf being cheap also pushed him to this decision).

Phil because Reinsdorf said he tried to keep Phil, but Phil said that was it. He was tired of dealing with Krause and saw that certain players were either up there in age or just didn't want to be there anymore.

After that it's a combo of MJ and Scottie but can you really blame them at that point? Your owner doesn't want to pay you or the team, your GM basically said he can do it alone, and the one coach you want to play for is leaving.


It’s 100% on Reinsdorf. First, like you said, he was probably too cheap to commit to the team. It’s honestly the only thing that makes sense. But second, he was the one person who could have settled the Krause/Phil issue and he didn’t. And I think he didn’t because Krause was following his orders. Reinsdorf offered Phil the chance to come back on a one year deal after making Phil win a sixth title first? What was that? That’s a fart in the wind. That’s an insult. I realize he had that deal with Jordan, but that deal was Mike’s idea. He wanted that for control and leverage. The Pippen situation was insulting too. He got over on Scottie and had him signed to an unfair contract. He wasn’t willing to renegotiate and he wasn’t willing to sign him to what he was worth when he became a fa. Breaking the team up isn’t on Scottie in the slightest. (And I know you aren’t saying otherwise) He fulfilled his contract and got offered a much better deal and took it. Now, I am certain he would have turned down an identical deal from the Bulls if hey offered it, but 1) they didn’t and 2) They had built up too much bad blood with him for him to want to stay
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1143 » by unicron5 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:15 am

Effigy wrote:
Profound23 wrote:
Mind_Odyssey wrote:Is it fair or unfair to say Scottie needing to get paid is what ended the Bulls dynasty?

I think if you keep him, MJ, and Rodman’s corpse, you win in 99’


I would say listening to Reinsdorf and Phil, the blame would go in this order:

Reinsdorf
Krause
Phil


Reinsdorf admitted he wasn't willing to pay for the team to come back which is foolish considering how much they made out of each championship, ticket sales, and all other revenue. He said he wanted MJ/Phil back but wanted to re-tool to save money. Well, he should have known Phil and MJ weren't going to play with a bunch of newcomers. He stated "it may have taken 2-3 years, but we would have gotten back there." Well, in 2-3 years MJ would have been a shell of himself (see his Wizard days). A shell of MJ is still better than most players, but not good enough to win titles.

Krause was against keeping Phil, making Phil and Scottie feel unwanted. He let it be known from day 1 of the new season that he was going to rebuild everything just because he could. (I am certain Reinsdorf being cheap also pushed him to this decision).

Phil because Reinsdorf said he tried to keep Phil, but Phil said that was it. He was tired of dealing with Krause and saw that certain players were either up there in age or just didn't want to be there anymore.

After that it's a combo of MJ and Scottie but can you really blame them at that point? Your owner doesn't want to pay you or the team, your GM basically said he can do it alone, and the one coach you want to play for is leaving.


It’s 100% on Reinsdorf. First, like you said, he was probably too cheap to commit to the team. It’s honestly the only thing that makes sense. But second, he was the one person who could have settled the Krause/Phil issue and he didn’t. And I think he didn’t because Krause was following his orders. Reinsdorf offered Phil the chance to come back on a one year deal after making Phil win a sixth title first? What was that? That’s a fart in the wind. That’s an insult. I realize he had that deal with Jordan, but that deal was Mike’s idea. He wanted that for control and leverage. The Pippen situation was insulting too. He got over on Scottie and had him signed to an unfair contract. He wasn’t willing to renegotiate and he wasn’t willing to sign him to what he was worth when he became a fa. Breaking the team up isn’t on Scottie in the slightest. (And I know you aren’t saying otherwise) He fulfilled his contract and got offered a much better deal and took it. Now, I am certain he would have turned down an identical deal from the Bulls if hey offered it, but 1) they didn’t and 2) They had built up too much bad blood with him for him to want to stay


You can't renegotiate a contract like that once its signed so I don't think that was a factor. The rest of it, sure. They got arrogant and thought they could quickly rebuild with some high picks. They were wrong.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1144 » by KGtabake » Wed May 20, 2020 11:55 am

LoveMyRaps wrote:
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Horace ain't lying one bit.



And you know that because you were in the lockers.
I do believe that MJ was a ****. I won't believe everything said just because someone says it tho(that includes MJ).
Grant is clearly pissed off because he was accused of being a snitch. If he wasn't accused of such thing would he still say these things now?
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1145 » by SSUBluesman » Wed May 20, 2020 12:50 pm

After finishing this last night before bed, and thinking through it a bit...

It really is remarkable they accomplished as much as they did, as long as they did with that many manipulative, petty individuals. To be fair I think even if they all wanted to come back Reinsdorf wouldn't have moneyed up, but it was pretty clear Phil was gone after the 82-0 comments and probably no matter what.

While Krause was the fuel for a lot of their fires, especially MJ's (92 Olympics, etc), there was a tendency to exaggerate or just make **** up, especially by MJ. I intend to watch the Jordan Rules (the book) episode again, as the initial viewing I felt like Horace was being used as a scapegoat, possibly by Phil (someone mentioned it during the episode as well iirc). The core of these guys fed on drama and MJ and Phil were master manipulators. Given the way he used Krause as the bad guy I'm inclined to include Reinsdorf.

I think they exaggerate MJ a bit in that the 90's were sold as "the world is flat" decade as globalization, mass marketing, etc. really accelerated. Yea there was no twitter or youtube but it also wasn't the 1950's. It was the perfect storm as you had major corporations throwing their weight behind MJ and marketing heavily everywhere they could.

One question I keep considering is how far would they have gone with a more traditional GM? Yea they found or invented slights, but Krause allowed for an internal Us vs Them that is a special kind of motivator. Also, Reinsdorf is on record as saying he knew Krause's personality would cause problems, did he hire him intentionally to do so or just because he could be manipulated? I lean towards the former as Phil/Pip weren't around at that time so it seems like maybe it's a bit 20/20.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1146 » by lazybatman » Wed May 20, 2020 2:55 pm

SSUBluesman wrote:After finishing this last night before bed, and thinking through it a bit...

It really is remarkable they accomplished as much as they did, as long as they did with that many manipulative, petty individuals. To be fair I think even if they all wanted to come back Reinsdorf wouldn't have moneyed up, but it was pretty clear Phil was gone after the 82-0 comments and probably no matter what.

While Krause was the fuel for a lot of their fires, especially MJ's (92 Olympics, etc), there was a tendency to exaggerate or just make **** up, especially by MJ. I intend to watch the Jordan Rules (the book) episode again, as the initial viewing I felt like Horace was being used as a scapegoat, possibly by Phil (someone mentioned it during the episode as well iirc). The core of these guys fed on drama and MJ and Phil were master manipulators. Given the way he used Krause as the bad guy I'm inclined to include Reinsdorf.

I think they exaggerate MJ a bit in that the 90's were sold as "the world is flat" decade as globalization, mass marketing, etc. really accelerated. Yea there was no twitter or youtube but it also wasn't the 1950's. It was the perfect storm as you had major corporations throwing their weight behind MJ and marketing heavily everywhere they could.

One question I keep considering is how far would they have gone with a more traditional GM? Yea they found or invented slights, but Krause allowed for an internal Us vs Them that is a special kind of motivator. Also, Reinsdorf is on record as saying he knew Krause's personality would cause problems, did he hire him intentionally to do so or just because he could be manipulated? I lean towards the former as Phil/Pip weren't around at that time so it seems like maybe it's a bit 20/20.
I enjoyed reading that mate. Thanks.

Also remember hearing something about Krauss feeling frustrated and wronged by Phil's disloyalty, as he put it, in not even trying to have Mike and Scottie go a bit easier on him. I think Krauss just got overwhelmed and threw out the 82-0 ultimatum. I've personally known prettier individuals in corporate life, and Krauss was less than average, having seen it through for 10-12 years. It's hard to blame MJ for it. The world was literally his oyster. I'm sure I would turn into the worst version of myself with so much fame and scrutiny around the clock.

There is no doubt, that this guy was one of the greatest basketball minds. His timing and eye of talent in drafts, trades, coaching changes was immaculate.

Kerr said it best 'he couldn't get out of his own way'.

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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1147 » by dWadeOwnzYou » Wed May 20, 2020 3:17 pm

Reinsdorf got off the hook way too easily. He was the actual villain in my eyes.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1148 » by donnieme » Wed May 20, 2020 3:18 pm

Effigy wrote:
Profound23 wrote:
Mind_Odyssey wrote:Is it fair or unfair to say Scottie needing to get paid is what ended the Bulls dynasty?

I think if you keep him, MJ, and Rodman’s corpse, you win in 99’


I would say listening to Reinsdorf and Phil, the blame would go in this order:

Reinsdorf
Krause
Phil


Reinsdorf admitted he wasn't willing to pay for the team to come back which is foolish considering how much they made out of each championship, ticket sales, and all other revenue. He said he wanted MJ/Phil back but wanted to re-tool to save money. Well, he should have known Phil and MJ weren't going to play with a bunch of newcomers. He stated "it may have taken 2-3 years, but we would have gotten back there." Well, in 2-3 years MJ would have been a shell of himself (see his Wizard days). A shell of MJ is still better than most players, but not good enough to win titles.

Krause was against keeping Phil, making Phil and Scottie feel unwanted. He let it be known from day 1 of the new season that he was going to rebuild everything just because he could. (I am certain Reinsdorf being cheap also pushed him to this decision).

Phil because Reinsdorf said he tried to keep Phil, but Phil said that was it. He was tired of dealing with Krause and saw that certain players were either up there in age or just didn't want to be there anymore.

After that it's a combo of MJ and Scottie but can you really blame them at that point? Your owner doesn't want to pay you or the team, your GM basically said he can do it alone, and the one coach you want to play for is leaving.


It’s 100% on Reinsdorf. First, like you said, he was probably too cheap to commit to the team. It’s honestly the only thing that makes sense. But second, he was the one person who could have settled the Krause/Phil issue and he didn’t. And I think he didn’t because Krause was following his orders. Reinsdorf offered Phil the chance to come back on a one year deal after making Phil win a sixth title first? What was that? That’s a fart in the wind. That’s an insult. I realize he had that deal with Jordan, but that deal was Mike’s idea. He wanted that for control and leverage. The Pippen situation was insulting too. He got over on Scottie and had him signed to an unfair contract. He wasn’t willing to renegotiate and he wasn’t willing to sign him to what he was worth when he became a fa. Breaking the team up isn’t on Scottie in the slightest. (And I know you aren’t saying otherwise) He fulfilled his contract and got offered a much better deal and took it. Now, I am certain he would have turned down an identical deal from the Bulls if hey offered it, but 1) they didn’t and 2) They had built up too much bad blood with him for him to want to stay

Agree on Reinsdorf and he gets extra lowlife points for letting Krause take the fall for most of the dysfunction. You'd think he'd ease up when he realised if he was the one in the grave he would be the one getting roasted
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1149 » by Run DLC » Wed May 20, 2020 7:55 pm

LeBron be like:“Hey MJ! I’m not trying to compete with you. (Daffy Duck’s voice) I just want to invite you to dinner and bake cookies with you”
Thanks for all the great memories, LeBron! The show must go on! #Heatnation
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1150 » by Galloisdaman » Wed May 20, 2020 8:24 pm

dWadeOwnzYou wrote:Reinsdorf got off the hook way too easily. He was the actual villain in my eyes.


I did not see any villains. MJ was not a nice guy at times. Phil Jackson did not really want to come back. I think Krause, Reinsdorf and Phil all saw the writing on the wall. This was a fast aging team. Jordan was carrying it but making 33mill a year back in 1998. Pip wanted a big deal but he was in decline. Rodman was in decline and would have wanted real money to come back. Even Kerr was going to want a nice boast to his salary. I think Reinsdorf and Krause both wanted Jordan back for sure. I think Reinsdorf wanted Phil back as well. I think they all knew that Pip and Rodman would not be worth signing to large deals. Pip was 2 years younger than Jordan but he was not going to last like Jordan. Both the Pacers and Jazz would have beat them if it was anyone else but Jordan pushing that 1998 team.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1151 » by Repeat 3-peat » Wed May 20, 2020 8:56 pm

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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1152 » by SSUBluesman » Wed May 20, 2020 9:01 pm

lazybatman wrote:
SSUBluesman wrote:After finishing this last night before bed, and thinking through it a bit...

It really is remarkable they accomplished as much as they did, as long as they did with that many manipulative, petty individuals. To be fair I think even if they all wanted to come back Reinsdorf wouldn't have moneyed up, but it was pretty clear Phil was gone after the 82-0 comments and probably no matter what.

While Krause was the fuel for a lot of their fires, especially MJ's (92 Olympics, etc), there was a tendency to exaggerate or just make **** up, especially by MJ. I intend to watch the Jordan Rules (the book) episode again, as the initial viewing I felt like Horace was being used as a scapegoat, possibly by Phil (someone mentioned it during the episode as well iirc). The core of these guys fed on drama and MJ and Phil were master manipulators. Given the way he used Krause as the bad guy I'm inclined to include Reinsdorf.

I think they exaggerate MJ a bit in that the 90's were sold as "the world is flat" decade as globalization, mass marketing, etc. really accelerated. Yea there was no twitter or youtube but it also wasn't the 1950's. It was the perfect storm as you had major corporations throwing their weight behind MJ and marketing heavily everywhere they could.

One question I keep considering is how far would they have gone with a more traditional GM? Yea they found or invented slights, but Krause allowed for an internal Us vs Them that is a special kind of motivator. Also, Reinsdorf is on record as saying he knew Krause's personality would cause problems, did he hire him intentionally to do so or just because he could be manipulated? I lean towards the former as Phil/Pip weren't around at that time so it seems like maybe it's a bit 20/20.


I enjoyed reading that mate. Thanks.

Also remember hearing something about Krauss feeling frustrated and wronged by Phil's disloyalty, as he put it, in not even trying to have Mike and Scottie go a bit easier on him. I think Krauss just got overwhelmed and threw out the 82-0 ultimatum. I've personally known prettier individuals in corporate life, and Krauss was less than average, having seen it through for 10-12 years. It's hard to blame MJ for it. The world was literally his oyster. I'm sure I would turn into the worst version of myself with so much fame and scrutiny around the clock.

There is no doubt, that this guy was one of the greatest basketball minds. His timing and eye of talent in drafts, trades, coaching changes was immaculate.

Kerr said it best 'he couldn't get out of his own way'.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app


They were all in perfect situations, except for Krause to some degree. Phil wasn't going to pull MJ and Pip back because he knew how much it drove them. I don't think Krause was as petty as he was made out to be in the series, it's typical for executives/ownership to get some credit and he was always sidelined by the team/Phil. Even if he did it unwittingly, him being the fall guy was a significant part of their success.It had to eat away at him to watch their success and be so disliked internally and get so little credit externally.

I looked into it a bit and the infatuation he had with Majerle came at the draft, where he wanted him to slide. It's similar to Kukoc, he's finding these guys before they're in the league and he's getting hated for it. Apparently there was some trade chatter about him being traded for Pippen, but Pip was almost traded multiple times, largely because Reinsdorf wouldn't pay him more.

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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1153 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Thu May 21, 2020 1:52 am

lazybatman wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
lazybatman wrote:
Mike>>>>>>>>>KD
Pippen & Rodman > Curry and Klay
Kukoc=Draymond
Phil >>>>>>>>>Kerr


Kukoc = Draymond

See now I know you're either trolling or flat out clueless.


Your boy is averaging a mighty 8-6-6 @39%FG this season. He's a glorified role player like Pat Beverly who fit perfectly into that system.

4 Atlanta Hawks were All Stars in 2016 after they lead the league in regular season. Then Lebron swept them, while perfecting the bottle flip on the sidelines. Draymond is just like those guys, except he happened to be on the Warriors team. Calm down.


Draymond stinks this season.

Look at his 2015-2016 season. He was incredible that season.

If you think Draymond at his best is equal to Kukoc at his best, you should go follow a different sport.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1154 » by Golden Knight » Thu May 21, 2020 6:18 am

Good documentary but really disappointed with the amount of footage from 1997-98 shown.

The promos and press releases for the documentary boasted "500 hours of film" sitting in the league's vault. I was left expecting 2-3 episodes worth of "intros"/new interviews and 7 episodes worth of 97-98 footage. We got like what, 1 episode, at most 2 episodes of the 97-98 season/interviews and the rest stuff we already know. No Pippen-Pacers, virtually no Harper(!) etc. You'd think the starting lineup of that team was Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kerr and Scott Burrell.

It's not really the Last Dance, more like a documentary about Jordan's Chicago career.

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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#1155 » by Drylick » Thu May 21, 2020 7:49 am

The Rodzilla wrote:
Drylick wrote:
The Rodzilla wrote:
the doc is a Jordan vanity piece and there is no criticism of him it in, its like when north korea does a documentary on kim jong un


Have you watched the other six episodes? Because I did. LOL. Is your comment fact or opinion based on bias?


no I didn't watch the next episodes because they are being fed to me 2 at a time, but its on espn so its automatically Jordan propaganda


Then your arguments are INVALID.

Simple as that.

Sit down.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1156 » by Mone 24 » Thu May 21, 2020 7:49 am

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
lazybatman wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
:lol: :lol:

Pippen does not EQUAL Curry.

And Kukoc definitely doesn't equal Klay.


Mike>>>>>>>>>KD
Pippen & Rodman > Curry and Klay
Kukoc=Draymond
Phil >>>>>>>>>Kerr


Kukoc = Draymond

See now I know you're either trolling or flat out clueless.


On the defensive side there is no question: Draymond Green is a beast and is too much better than Toni.

Ok.

But on the offensive side?
Man, Kukoc was another type of player: so damn skilled, he could do everything with that left hand and maybe he's been the very first big man with an high shooting range.

Damn, Toni is still so underrated. :nonono:
On the offensive side he's way better than Draymond, there is no doubt.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#1157 » by The Rodzilla » Thu May 21, 2020 8:03 am

Drylick wrote:
The Rodzilla wrote:
Drylick wrote:
Have you watched the other six episodes? Because I did. LOL. Is your comment fact or opinion based on bias?


no I didn't watch the next episodes because they are being fed to me 2 at a time, but its on espn so its automatically Jordan propaganda


Then your arguments are INVALID.

Simple as that.

Sit down.


well actually now I have seen all the episodes, so im right
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#1158 » by Drylick » Thu May 21, 2020 8:06 am

The Rodzilla wrote:
Drylick wrote:
The Rodzilla wrote:
no I didn't watch the next episodes because they are being fed to me 2 at a time, but its on espn so its automatically Jordan propaganda


Then your arguments are INVALID.

Simple as that.

Sit down.


well actually now I have seen all the episodes, so im right


Nope, I am.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1159 » by Brandon_Roy » Thu May 21, 2020 1:00 pm

Mone 24 wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
lazybatman wrote:
Mike>>>>>>>>>KD
Pippen & Rodman > Curry and Klay
Kukoc=Draymond
Phil >>>>>>>>>Kerr


Kukoc = Draymond

See now I know you're either trolling or flat out clueless.


On the defensive side there is no question: Draymond Green is a beast and is too much better than Toni.

Ok.

But on the offensive side?
Man, Kukoc was another type of player: so damn skilled, he could do everything with that left hand and maybe he's been the very first big man with an high shooting range.

Damn, Toni is still so underrated. :nonono:
On the offensive side he's way better than Draymond, there is no doubt.

Hes just a better version of Gallo
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1160 » by SSUBluesman » Thu May 21, 2020 2:20 pm

Golden Knight wrote:Good documentary but really disappointed with the amount of footage from 1997-98 shown.

The promos and press releases for the documentary boasted "500 hours of film" sitting in the league's vault. I was left expecting 2-3 episodes worth of "intros"/new interviews and 7 episodes worth of 97-98 footage. We got like what, 1 episode, at most 2 episodes of the 97-98 season/interviews and the rest stuff we already know. No Pippen-Pacers, virtually no Harper(!) etc. You'd think the starting lineup of that team was Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kerr and Scott Burrell.

It's not really the Last Dance, more like a documentary about Jordan's Chicago career.

Image


My friend is just starting to watch it now and I mentioned to him that I felt the first half or so was stronger because of all the footage and details about games/series. He was a big Kemp fan back in the day so I made sure to warn him how quickly they went through that series. I was really disappointed with how they didn't deep dive more into the series' with the Jazz especially.

Their coverage of the Pistons, Knicks, was so much better, I felt like I was learning stuff I didn't know about the Pistons and reliving those awesome Knicks games.

And you're right about Harper, I think I saw more of him on the golf course than I did on the court lol.
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