ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1161 » by otwok » Thu May 21, 2020 2:46 pm

I haven't seen the documentary but I see things like Jordan was a bully and vindictive and stuff. I thought this was common knowledge.

Playing in organized sports growing up this is also pretty common. So not sure how people are reacting like this is some news.

Also, did anyone think that this was supposed to be some piece of investigative journalism? Jordan had final say. This is just a walk down memory lane for those of us who lived through it, a reminder for those of us who forgot, and a lesson for those of us who never saw it.



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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1162 » by ProcessDoctor » Thu May 21, 2020 4:45 pm

Two omissions from the Last Dance were particularly interesting to me:

1) No interview or mention of Jordan's wife

2) No single mention of LeBron
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1163 » by jc23 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:11 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:Two omissions from the Last Dance were particularly interesting to me:

1) No interview or mention of Jordan's wife

2) No single mention of LeBron


1) no way in hell Jordan would approve that lol

2) that would be silly considering the years covered
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1164 » by Dan Z » Thu May 21, 2020 9:20 pm

otwok wrote:I haven't seen the documentary but I see things like Jordan was a bully and vindictive and stuff. I thought this was common knowledge.

Playing in organized sports growing up this is also pretty common. So not sure how people are reacting like this is some news.

Also, did anyone think that this was supposed to be some piece of investigative journalism? Jordan had final say. This is just a walk down memory lane for those of us who lived through it, a reminder for those of us who forgot, and a lesson for those of us who never saw it.



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Most people knew what the series was before they even turned it on. The people who are complaining about that aren't really upset, they just want to complain.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1165 » by Ugly Duckling » Thu May 21, 2020 9:33 pm

dWadeOwnzYou wrote:Reinsdorf got off the hook way too easily. He was the actual villain in my eyes.


Was? He still is
mudsak wrote:Watching Kawhi plow through the playoffs like the most stoic gangster to walk the earth has been one of the most epic things I've watched in a while.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1166 » by Ugly Duckling » Thu May 21, 2020 9:42 pm

1.) MJ GOAT no question
2.) Pip slightly overrated - This is a big one. He's one of my favorite players of all time, but people calling him the best 2 man of all time are forgetting KAJ/Robertson (way before my time, but I know who they are), Shaq/Kobe, Magic/KAJ and LBJ/Wade. Pip was an elite defender and the best tomahawk jammer of all time, but that's about it. He wasn't close to any of these guys in terms of his overall game. He couldn't really handle the rock that well. He's overblown because all eyes were always on Mike, which left him wide open a lot. He's not even one of the top 10 wings of all time, which further solidifies MJ as the GOAT
3.) Rodman fascinating
4.) Kerr amazing
5.) Phil good, but mysterious/selfish
6.) Krause good, but insecure
7.) Reinsdorf terrible, needs to be bought out
8.) Bulls would've won 9 straight had Mike never left and run it back one more time
mudsak wrote:Watching Kawhi plow through the playoffs like the most stoic gangster to walk the earth has been one of the most epic things I've watched in a while.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1167 » by Repeat 3-peat » Thu May 21, 2020 10:06 pm

FWIW. The next ESPN documentary.

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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1168 » by Yuri36 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:31 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:1.) MJ GOAT no question
2.) Pip slightly overrated - This is a big one. He's one of my favorite players of all time, but people calling him the best 2 man of all time are forgetting KAJ/Robertson (way before my time, but I know who they are), Shaq/Kobe, Magic/KAJ and LBJ/Wade. Pip was an elite defender and the best tomahawk jammer of all time, but that's about it. He wasn't close to any of these guys in terms of his overall game. He couldn't really handle the rock that well. He's overblown because all eyes were always on Mike, which left him wide open a lot. He's not even one of the top 10 wings of all time, which further solidifies MJ as the GOAT
3.) Rodman fascinating
4.) Kerr amazing
5.) Phil good, but mysterious/selfish
6.) Krause good, but insecure
7.) Reinsdorf terrible, needs to be bought out
8.) Bulls would've won 9 straight had Mike never left and run it back one more time


Yeah, Rodman was as you could predict one of the big highlights of this documentary.
And you can see he was way more intelligent than you would believe watching him at first.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1169 » by YouthMovement » Fri May 22, 2020 12:55 am

ProcessDoctor wrote:Two omissions from the Last Dance were particularly interesting to me:

1) No interview or mention of Jordan's wife

2) No single mention of LeBron


i think only time they mentioned his wife was after he won the 3rd and he said he needed to call her
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1170 » by DavidDunn21 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:35 am

The villain was/is Pippen.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1171 » by Dan Z » Fri May 22, 2020 6:32 am

YouthMovement wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:Two omissions from the Last Dance were particularly interesting to me:

1) No interview or mention of Jordan's wife

2) No single mention of LeBron


i think only time they mentioned his wife was after he won the 3rd and he said he needed to call her


Maybe his ex-wife didn't want to be in the documentary?
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1172 » by Air Apparent » Fri May 22, 2020 7:48 am

i didn't even care about rodman and carmen, so personally idc about jordans wife (or that mad random cameo by his kids for like 2 seconds lol)

i just wanted to see rare basketball footage stuff from the season more than anything (like moments in practice/locker room etc), a lot of these other stories have been told a billion times

and what was going through his mind in particular situations, though even that has mostly been heard of for the most part
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1173 » by Jordan Stopper » Fri May 22, 2020 9:41 am

Jordan swearing in it made him look like an idiot.

I don't mind swearing but it seemed forced and unnatural.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1174 » by Slava » Fri May 22, 2020 9:47 am

YouthMovement wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:Two omissions from the Last Dance were particularly interesting to me:

1) No interview or mention of Jordan's wife

2) No single mention of LeBron


i think only time they mentioned his wife was after he won the 3rd and he said he needed to call her


He didn't even say he needed to call her. He was offered if he wanted to talk to his wife and he said yes.

Marc Stein noted in his newsletter as well that the documentary conveniently neglects Jordan's absentee parenthood while at the same time showing his attachment to his own father.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1175 » by mccluskey » Fri May 22, 2020 1:42 pm

Brandon_Roy wrote:
Mone 24 wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
Kukoc = Draymond

See now I know you're either trolling or flat out clueless.


On the defensive side there is no question: Draymond Green is a beast and is too much better than Toni.

Ok.

But on the offensive side?
Man, Kukoc was another type of player: so damn skilled, he could do everything with that left hand and maybe he's been the very first big man with an high shooting range.

Damn, Toni is still so underrated. :nonono:
On the offensive side he's way better than Draymond, there is no doubt.

Hes just a better version of Gallo


hold up now, Kukoc was not a better version of Gallo - Toni was a better playmaker, but Gallo is bigger, stronger and more athletic and a more complete scorer. Also Toni was always a little too much of a tweener, not quite big enough for PF or quick enough for SF, moreso than DG.

and for the guy you quoted who said he was the first big man who could shoot, Kukoc was a really good player and had a nice all around game, but he didn't break any molds - Detlef Schrempf was just as skilled overall and in the league before him.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1176 » by carrrnuttt » Fri May 22, 2020 2:46 pm

Jordan Stopper wrote:Jordan swearing in it made him look like an idiot.

I don't mind swearing but it seemed forced and unnatural.


Dude, stop it.

You're just reaching now.

I don't know what Pilgrim/Amish settlement you live in, but *I* talk like that in normal life, and I'd type that way in here if the forum allowed it.

In the uncensored footage from the past, younger MJ himself talked that way in his conversations.

Unless, of course, in your mind they edited the old footage to tack in the swearing.

JFC - wtf is wrong with you people?
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1177 » by Mone 24 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:49 pm

mccluskey wrote:
Brandon_Roy wrote:
Mone 24 wrote:
On the defensive side there is no question: Draymond Green is a beast and is too much better than Toni.

Ok.

But on the offensive side?
Man, Kukoc was another type of player: so damn skilled, he could do everything with that left hand and maybe he's been the very first big man with an high shooting range.

Damn, Toni is still so underrated. :nonono:
On the offensive side he's way better than Draymond, there is no doubt.

Hes just a better version of Gallo


hold up now, Kukoc was not a better version of Gallo - Toni was a better playmaker, but Gallo is bigger, stronger and more athletic and a more complete scorer. Also Toni was always a little too much of a tweener, not quite big enough for PF or quick enough for SF, moreso than DG.

and for the guy you quoted who said he was the first big man who could shoot, Kukoc was a really good player and had a nice all around game, but he didn't break any molds - Detlef Schrempf was just as skilled overall and in the league before him.


I suppose he was trolling saying that thing about Kukoc and Gallo!

:D

I agree with you. Honestly, I didn't want say that Kukoc was an outbreaking player in his offensive style.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1178 » by Jordan Stopper » Fri May 22, 2020 4:14 pm

carrrnuttt wrote:
Jordan Stopper wrote:Jordan swearing in it made him look like an idiot.

I don't mind swearing but it seemed forced and unnatural.


Dude, stop it.

You're just reaching now.

I don't know what Pilgrim/Amish settlement you live in, but *I* talk like that in normal life, and I'd type that way in here if the forum allowed it.

In the uncensored footage from the past, younger MJ himself talked that way in his conversations.

Unless, of course, in your mind they edited the old footage to tack in the swearing.

JFC - wtf is wrong with you people?


The guy is 60 bloody years old.

Doesn't seem to have matured one little bit.

He isn't beyond reproach.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1179 » by leolozon » Fri May 22, 2020 5:34 pm

Dan Z wrote:
otwok wrote:I haven't seen the documentary but I see things like Jordan was a bully and vindictive and stuff. I thought this was common knowledge.

Playing in organized sports growing up this is also pretty common. So not sure how people are reacting like this is some news.

Also, did anyone think that this was supposed to be some piece of investigative journalism? Jordan had final say. This is just a walk down memory lane for those of us who lived through it, a reminder for those of us who forgot, and a lesson for those of us who never saw it.



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Most people knew what the series was before they even turned it on. The people who are complaining about that aren't really upset, they just want to complain.


Meh, he punched two teammates in the face and belittled many. And when they went over that segment, not only did they skip through all the worst parts of it, avoiding to go into the details, which I could understand in a doc having MJ as the hero, but they actually made it sound like MJ HAD to do those things and was right in doing them. They even went through a montage of him winning, as if MJ bullying teammates was the reason they won those championships.

That’s bullsh*t.

They won because of talent, just like all the teams before and after them. All of those teams won without the need for teammates to get punched in the face or insulted.

If it’s a « lesson for those that didn’t see it », then it’s the wrong lesson. Winning doesn’t require to be an a**hole. Jordan and the doc are wrong.

And no, a lot of people didn’t think it would be that one sided.

It’s not about being upset or complaining. If a doc is as biased as this, people have the right to talk about it and be disappointed. To me, truth is more interesting and entertaining than a publicity stunt and a highlight real.

But anyway, I thought the doc would be about 98 with some flashbacks, but it was about the flashbacks, which I also think was less interesting. I think it would have been more emotional if it was more about 98.
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Re: ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion 

Post#1180 » by Dan Z » Fri May 22, 2020 6:11 pm

leolozon wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
otwok wrote:I haven't seen the documentary but I see things like Jordan was a bully and vindictive and stuff. I thought this was common knowledge.

Playing in organized sports growing up this is also pretty common. So not sure how people are reacting like this is some news.

Also, did anyone think that this was supposed to be some piece of investigative journalism? Jordan had final say. This is just a walk down memory lane for those of us who lived through it, a reminder for those of us who forgot, and a lesson for those of us who never saw it.



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Most people knew what the series was before they even turned it on. The people who are complaining about that aren't really upset, they just want to complain.


Meh, he punched two teammates in the face and belittled many. And when they went over that segment, not only did they skip through all the worst parts of it, avoiding to go into the details, which I could understand in a doc having MJ as the hero, but they actually made it sound like MJ HAD to do those things and was right in doing them. They even went through a montage of him winning, as if MJ bullying teammates was the reason they won those championships.

That’s bullsh*t.

They won because of talent, just like all the teams before and after them. All of those teams won without the need for teammates to get punched in the face or insulted.

If it’s a « lesson for those that didn’t see it », then it’s the wrong lesson. Winning doesn’t require to be an a**hole. Jordan and the doc are wrong.

And no, a lot of people didn’t think it would be that one sided.

It’s not about being upset or complaining. If a doc is as biased as this, people have the right to talk about it and be disappointed. To me, truth is more interesting and entertaining than a publicity stunt and a highlight real.

But anyway, I thought the doc would be about 98 with some flashbacks, but it was about the flashbacks, which I also think was less interesting. I think it would have been more emotional if it was more about 98.


You're doing exactly what I said: complaining about it. If you're honest with yourself you knew what the series would be like before you even turned it on.

Why does "The Last Dance" have to have "lessons" in it? It it a PBS series for kids?

I understand if you're disappointed because you wanted it to be something that it's not and, of course, there's nothing wrong with that.

If you're curious Dice on the Bulls board posted a youtube conversation with a few former Bulls players (Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Bill Cartwright and Ron Harper). At one point they talk about Jordan's "bullying".

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