Replace Kobe with AI

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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#21 » by Nutty Nats Fan » Wed May 20, 2020 10:34 am

Slava wrote:This is hard to know, there were a lot possessions where all Kobe did was run the offense, make an entry pass and wait for a reason to cut. His playoffs usage during the three peat was at or well below 30. Compared to that, Iverson's usage during those playoffs was around 35.

Despite Kobe's reluctance to taking the back seat, he did exactly that for a large portion of those titles when Shaq was healthy and in shape. I think Iverson would have the same issues if not more in terms of toning down his usage around Shaq because he was more scoring minded than Kobe during those years.

Don't you think, Koba would have been more scoring minded playing with the team AI had? And AI would have been less so, playing with Shaq?
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#22 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 20, 2020 10:52 am

They would’ve still won at least 3 with AI and Shaq. Those laker teams were loaded, and Shaq was unstoppable. AI was the best perimeter scorer in the league while Shaq was winning titles in LA, not Kobe.I’m a huge AI fan, but also feel any elite sg of that period (Vince, Ray Allen, Tmac) would’ve also won them. Shaq with a top tier scoring guard and the role players they had was winning titles. Shaq was that dominant and the defense aspect from their role players was enough to keep them more than competent on that end.

Look at it another way. Replace AI with Kobe, does philly win anything? If judging by the years between Shaq to Gasol, when Kobe was more in his prime than he was in the Shaq years, the answer is a hard no. Kobe didn’t get out of the first round in those years. It happened. He was amazing, but with no star center he was Tmac, which is no slight, but he wasn’t winning (nobody would’ve with those laker rosters, just as AI didn’t with his philly rosters). Situation matters. Kobe was in two extremely good ones in LA, they helped him get all those rings.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#23 » by Slava » Wed May 20, 2020 11:00 am

Nutty Nats Fan wrote:
Slava wrote:This is hard to know, there were a lot possessions where all Kobe did was run the offense, make an entry pass and wait for a reason to cut. His playoffs usage during the three peat was at or well below 30. Compared to that, Iverson's usage during those playoffs was around 35.

Despite Kobe's reluctance to taking the back seat, he did exactly that for a large portion of those titles when Shaq was healthy and in shape. I think Iverson would have the same issues if not more in terms of toning down his usage around Shaq because he was more scoring minded than Kobe during those years.

Don't you think, Koba would have been more scoring minded playing with the team AI had? And AI would have been less so, playing with Shaq?


Well that's why I said its kind of hard to know as this is a counter factual at this point.

To make an argument here, one can say that if Kobe wasn't scoring, he had other places to contribute his energy in a positive manner such as being a premier wing defender. Iverson's physical limitations kind of disable him there so his energy was focussed on the one thing he was elite at, which is to provide isolation offense on an offensively limited team.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#24 » by Pennebaker » Wed May 20, 2020 11:08 am

Hellcrooner wrote:No rings.
Iverson was 10 times more of a ballhog than kobe.


Balderdash!

In Iverson's first year in the league he averaged 7.5 assists - a number Kobe would never reach.

And it didn't end there.

2003-04 Bryant: 24.0 ppg, 5.1 apg
2003-04 Iverson: 26.4 ppg, 6.8 apg <<<< Kobe

2004-05 Bryant: 27.6 ppg, 6.0 apg
2004-05 Iverson: 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg <<<< Bryant

2005-06 Bryant: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg
2005-06 Iverson: 33.0 ppg, 7.4 apg <<<< was

2006-07 Bryant: 31.6 ppg, 5.4 apg
2006-07 Iverson: 26.3 ppg, 7.2 apg <<<< a

2007-08 Bryant: 28.3 ppg, 5.4 apg
2007-08 Iverson: 26.4 ppg, 7.1 apg <<<< bigger

Kobe Bryant career AST%: 24.2
Allen Iverson career AST%: 28.8 <<<< ballhog
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#25 » by NeutralObserver » Wed May 20, 2020 11:15 am

Shaq played with Nick Anderson, Penny, Eddie Jones, and Van Exel before Kobe got to start.

Why wasn't he successful with other all-stars/ premier guards? The 'most dominant ever' only won 1 ring without Kobe.

Do they get past the Blazers, Spurs, or Kings? Does AI manhandle the Spurs in 2001?

Does AI get more blocks, rebounds, assists, points, and steals than Shaq in game 7 vs the Blazers?

Guess we'll never know.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#26 » by Antinomy » Wed May 20, 2020 11:15 am

They wouldn’t have won a damn thing without Kobe.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#27 » by NeutralObserver » Wed May 20, 2020 11:17 am

Lol. Typical stat box watcher. "Let's just compare statistical data side-by-side to settle this."

Basketball isn't Pokemon card game played on paper. How old are some of you?

Strike three for trolling. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't give you license to call them children.

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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#28 » by NeutralObserver » Wed May 20, 2020 11:18 am

Would AI been able to come back after Jalen Rose undercut him and lead the Lakers to victory with Shaq on the bench in Indiana?
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#29 » by OdomFan » Wed May 20, 2020 11:19 am

A better question is how well does Iverson do in the triangle offense? I don't see it working with him. PJ wrote a book on how difficult it was to coach Kobe early on, but with A.I I think it be even worse. I don't see them getting to the Finals one time with this replacement. Plus I think Shaq leaves the team if they don't trade Iverson out of there first.

Allen Iverson for Kobe Bryant sounds like a good trade to me. Then the championships can start coming in soon after.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#30 » by bearadonisdna » Wed May 20, 2020 11:34 am

Essentially yes.
Each player had his pros and cons.
But in 2000-2001 iverson was the league mvp and therefore Arguably better than shaq himself
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#31 » by JN61 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:34 am

With Iverson I think they might get 4 when Shaq was on the team. Lakers obviously don't win anything on late 00.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#32 » by GhosDini » Wed May 20, 2020 11:48 am

bearadonisdna wrote:Essentially yes.
Each player had his pros and cons.
But in 2000-2001 iverson was the league mvp and therefore Arguably better than shaq himself


In 2001 Kobe avg'd 28/6/5 on 46% vs Iverson's 31/4/4 in 42% shooting. Kobe arguably plaued better basketball that season than AI. He was averaging something like 33/7/7 in the playoffs midway through the western conf. finals.

You guys keep acting like Iverson was better than Kobe in 2001 and its just not true. Offensively they were pretty even but defensively Kobe was much better. And when it came to intangibles like hard work, leadership, IQ, efficiency, and sacrifice theres no contest.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#33 » by OdomFan » Wed May 20, 2020 11:50 am

Also looking at the late 90s team, I don't see them getting as far as they got in 97-99 either with Iverson instead of Kobe. Iverson and Jones might do ok together alongside Shaq, but with Van Exel also there that might be an issue. Both being around the same height with the same kind of problematic attitude could have those Lakers looking similar to what the Knicks dealt with during the Marbury and Francis experiment.

Not even sure PJ would want to go over there to deal with that unless the team agrees to trade either Iverson or Van Exel before he signs on. Then it comes down to who they can get for either player. One interesting thought to me would be Penny Hardaway. Would the Magic be interested in Iverson for Penny? or Van Exel and Campbell for Penny and whatever it takes to match the contracts. I don't know. That might help the Lakers chances, but I still have doubts that they'd accomplish the same kind of success that Shaq and Kobe did. Maybe 1 or 2 championships but certainly no 3 peat. The Spurs would have a better chance at repeating in any of these scenarios imo, and the Kings would have that much of a better chance at winning one.

Over in Philly, I think Kobe and Stackhouse play better together than Stack and A.I ever did, but that can only go so far without the team making more moves to get that team going. So not sure what happens with them in the long run. Maybe Kobe eventually wants to go else where.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#34 » by Birth of the Cool » Wed May 20, 2020 11:53 am

Talentwise I think so. Kobe was a better traditional defender but Iverson also brought a defensive angle of his own in steals (but of course, his was more gambling than Kobe, who only gambled much more on D later in his career). However, he has the same sort of mentality Kobe did and it would have been interesting how he would have gotten along with Shaq, Phil and running the triangle.

I believe there were a few guys who could have replaced Kobe during that Shaq led Lakers Championship teams to win it all and perhaps extend their prime as they were more team oriented - Paul Pierce / Tracy McGrady / Vince Carter for sure I think win rings with that team/organization. Then guys like Ray Allen are more iffy.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#35 » by Hellcrooner » Wed May 20, 2020 12:42 pm

Pennebaker wrote:
Hellcrooner wrote:No rings.
Iverson was 10 times more of a ballhog than kobe.


Balderdash!

In Iverson's first year in the league he averaged 7.5 assists - a number Kobe would never reach.

And it didn't end there.

2003-04 Bryant: 24.0 ppg, 5.1 apg
2003-04 Iverson: 26.4 ppg, 6.8 apg <<<< Kobe

2004-05 Bryant: 27.6 ppg, 6.0 apg
2004-05 Iverson: 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg <<<< Bryant

2005-06 Bryant: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg
2005-06 Iverson: 33.0 ppg, 7.4 apg <<<< was

2006-07 Bryant: 31.6 ppg, 5.4 apg
2006-07 Iverson: 26.3 ppg, 7.2 apg <<<< a

2007-08 Bryant: 28.3 ppg, 5.4 apg
2007-08 Iverson: 26.4 ppg, 7.1 apg <<<< bigger

Kobe Bryant career AST%: 24.2
Allen Iverson career AST%: 28.8 <<<< ballhog


lol go search me how many shots per game taken.
thanks.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#36 » by og15 » Wed May 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Pennebaker wrote:
bubonicphoniks wrote:Settling a debate.

Could you replace Bryant on those Lakers Shaq teams with Iverson and get essentially the same results?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app


Yes, and here's why:

Image

Kobe played poorly in most of those Finals and the Lakers still won.

It would not have been difficulty for ANY All-Star caliber shooting guard to step in and do a better job, let alone Allen Iverson.

You have to get to the finals first before playing in the finals. The finals was always the Lakers easiest matchup outside of when they played Indiana.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#37 » by Dutchball97 » Wed May 20, 2020 1:43 pm

Honestly the only ring they'd get would be 2001. AI and Kobe were close statistically in the finals and since the Lakers were so much better than anyone else that year I'm positive that replacing Kobe with AI wouldn't change much. They wouldn't get past the Trailblazers in 2000 or the Kings in 2002 though.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#38 » by sfernald » Wed May 20, 2020 2:55 pm

Am I the only one on here who when he read this thread title thought they were going to build a robot version of Kobe!?

Hey let me write the algorithm for that robot. Really simple logic:

If (hasBall)
shoot();
If (1==0)
pass();
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#39 » by -TheDocOfDenial » Wed May 20, 2020 3:05 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Honestly the only ring they'd get would be 2001. AI and Kobe were close statistically in the finals and since the Lakers were so much better than anyone else that year I'm positive that replacing Kobe with AI wouldn't change much. They wouldn't get past the Trailblazers in 2000 or the Kings in 2002 though.


Even 2001 is not a gurantee, Kobe was a killer against the Spurs. People descredit Kobe for Shaqs finals MVPs but their run through the west was when kobe did his best work against better teams than what they wound up facing in the finals.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#40 » by UcanUwill » Wed May 20, 2020 3:09 pm

Maybe Shaq ones yes, No way you get championships with AI instead of Kobe with those Pau teams.

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