Replace Kobe with AI

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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#41 » by TurinTurambar » Wed May 20, 2020 4:17 pm

og15 wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
bubonicphoniks wrote:Settling a debate.

Could you replace Bryant on those Lakers Shaq teams with Iverson and get essentially the same results?

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Yes, and here's why:

Image

Kobe played poorly in most of those Finals and the Lakers still won.

It would not have been difficulty for ANY All-Star caliber shooting guard to step in and do a better job, let alone Allen Iverson.

You have to get to the finals first before playing in the finals. The finals was always the Lakers easiest matchup outside of when they played Indiana.



All anyone has to do to understand Kobe's Finals numbers during the Threepeat is look at Shaq's matchup for each of them.

33 year old Rik Smits (in his last year)
34 year old Dikembe Mutombo
Tod MacCulloch

You don't need to be Phil Jackson to figure out, "Get the ball to Shaq every time" is the best strategy.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#42 » by Duke4life831 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm

TurinTurambar wrote:
og15 wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
Yes, and here's why:

Image

Kobe played poorly in most of those Finals and the Lakers still won.

It would not have been difficulty for ANY All-Star caliber shooting guard to step in and do a better job, let alone Allen Iverson.

You have to get to the finals first before playing in the finals. The finals was always the Lakers easiest matchup outside of when they played Indiana.



All anyone has to do to understand Kobe's Finals numbers during the Threepeat is look at Shaq's matchup for each of them.

33 year old Rik Smits (in his last year)
34 year old Dikembe Mutombo
Tod MacCulloch

You don't need to be Phil Jackson to figure out, "Get the ball to Shaq every time" is the best strategy.


Agreed, but saying 34 year old Mutombo is a little misleading. Mutombo was the DPOY that season.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#43 » by BigDocta898 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:35 pm

Drou wrote:Iverson was nowhere near Kobe's level, so my answer is no.



Kobe could of never led tbat Sixers team to the finals
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#44 » by Sign5 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:37 pm

og15 wrote:
Sign5 wrote:They get AT LEAST 2, I'm certain of that. Shaq was that dominant to cover the gap between Kobe and AI (which isn't THAT sizable to begin with).

I don't know, the gap is pretty decent, Kobe was better on both ends, and it's not like they walked to championships. As dominant as Shaq was, he was getting first round exits before Kobe developed. How good is AI in the triangle? However good that is, is he as good as Kobe? Don't think anyone argues "yes". Then defensively, Kobe's contributions there was part of what put the Lakers over the edge in series', and AI just can't give you that, he's not anywhere as good defensively, and he makes you smaller in the backcourt.

Can AI get them over the hump vs the Blazers and the Kings? I'd say with AI they get one, but certainly not three.

Then with the Gasol teams, they aren't getting anything championships with AI instead of Kobe.
The gap is almost all on defense but Lakers role players were pretty stout overall that he could be covered. Scoring and facilitating-wise, Kobe wouldn't be as missed.

Gotta love the notion that Iverson was a bigger ball hog when he had several paltry scoring options throughout his career. Meanwhile Kobe garnered that label WITH arguably the most dominant player ever.
I can see they them struggling against a team like the Kings but I genuinely believe Shaq drags them to 2.

They win 0 with Gasol for sure.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#45 » by BigtimeNBAfan » Wed May 20, 2020 4:43 pm

They might win less than 3 because Kobe's d was pivotal, but they would have deeper playoff runs in other years. For example 99 with Iverson instead of Kobe they are better than the 4 seed and make it to at least the conference finals. You could make the case for 97 and 98 too. They might get by the Jazz in 98 with Iverson. He was much more NBA ready and a better player than Kobe was. I don't know if they get any rings those years. The Bulls and Spurs still probably beat them.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#46 » by PKABOOICU » Wed May 20, 2020 4:46 pm

Lakers would probably win a ring with AI in 2001. Shaq was unstoppable, and AI had an MVP season. Paired together, nobody was stopping them.

They wouldnt get past the Blazers in 2000 with AI though. They needed Kobe's length in that matchup against Pippen and Bonzi.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#47 » by jdzimme3 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:22 pm

Saying AI was nowhere near kobe in 2001 is ridiculous. Shaq Lakers win a couple titles with AI but gasol lakers likely don’t.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#48 » by ProcessDoctor » Wed May 20, 2020 5:23 pm

Yes, easily. Iverson was a better player than Kobe those 3 years. Kobe's Finals performances were pretty average.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#49 » by G35 » Wed May 20, 2020 7:00 pm

Its not a straight comparison, Kobe and AI are different players even though both can get shot happy. But you can run an offense through Kobe and maximize other players. With AI, at his best, you did not get their optimal production offensively.

Shaq was the focal point those years and he let you know the big dog likes to eat. So either Shaq was going to give up touches to AI (not going to happen) or AI was going to let Shaq be the focal of the offense and with that you aren't getting the best of Iverson. What people overlook with Kobe is that other players were able to shine next to him. Shaq shined, Pau shined, Lamar shined, even Bynum shined.

When AI took the Sixers to the finals it was AI and you do not give much credit to the rest of the team, they were there for defensive purposes. It took a special set of circumstances for them to get to the finals imo.....
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#50 » by Bornstellar » Wed May 20, 2020 7:07 pm

I think they could win 2-3 rings with AI instead of Kobe. People in this thread acting like AI was not on the same level in the early 2000s are either too young to have seen it, or just don't remember. AI won an MVP in 2001 in a league with prime Shaq/Tim Duncan. That's pretty impressive. He wasn't some slouch. And playing next to someone with the offensive gravity of prime Shaq would have done so much for his scoring efficiency. He never played a team anywhere near as good as those Shaq Lakers
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#51 » by JayMKE » Wed May 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Shaq was so dominant he could have carried AI to a ring for sure I think
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#52 » by 2012NadalShadow » Wed May 20, 2020 7:54 pm

Here is a good thread from Reddit that actually address the 2001 Lakers with Kobe and Shaq:

https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/evc7g5/the_2001_series_against_the_kings_and_spurs_was/

I will quote from a poster in the thread:

2001 is far and and away the most underrated Kobe season. Most will say 2006 or 2003 or 2008, but this is the season where he was a absolute 1st-tier superstar on offense, AND a legit defensive all-defensive guard. He was a top five player in the RS, and then jumped a level and had one of the very best post-season runs of all-time.

Post-season run: 29.4/7.3/6.1/1.8/0.7 on GODLY efficiency (+5.7 rTS, +17 rORTG). 7.4 BPM. .260 WS/48. 3.8 WS. +14.2 On/Off. #1 in PS WS. #1 on the team in WS, OWS, WS/48, VORP, OBPM, BPM, On/Off, +/-, and Playoff RAPM. Played ELITE defense.. On a team with peak Shaq. On a team that a relative ORTG of +13.7 (a top 3 mark ever). Against INSANE defensive competition/overall comp (average SRS of the teams they faced was 5.6, avg DRTG rank was #5) On a team that that had the best post-season run of all time by a distance. 15-1 with a SRS of 19.


Hell, the 2001 Lakers were far and away the best team of that stretch, and Kobe led that team in overall RAPM, post-season RAPM, post-season BPM, post-season +/-, RAPTOR +/-, post-season WS, post-season WS/48, etc, but it was all Shaq, right? lmao

Overall RAPM (RS+PS):

Bryant: 4.39 (#3 in the league)

Shaq: 4.37 (#4 in the league)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11181n4avq5wefk/AABLySVPmcZXb0uiGPEk53fpa/2001.txt?dl=0



Post-season RAPM (wonky source):

Kobe: #1 in the league

Shaq: #10 in the league

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2000-01/playoffs/



Post-season +/-:

Kobe: +213

Shaq: +186



Post-season On/Off:

Kobe: +14.2

Shaq: -0.3



RAPTOR +/- (influenced by box-score):

Kobe: +6.4

Shaq: +6.2



RAPTOR WAR

Kobe: +16.3

Shaq: +16.6



RS RAPTOR +/-

KObe: +5.9

Shaq: +5.5



Post-season RAPTOR +/-:

Kobe: +8.4

Shaq: +8.9



Post-season WAR:

Kobe: +4.0

Shaq: +4.1



Post-season ORTG:

Kobe: 117

Shaq: 113



Post-season BPM (Basketball-Reference)

Kobe: +7.4

Shaq: +7.2



Post-season BPM (Backpicks)

Kobe: +6.8

Shaq: +5.6

https://backpicks.com/



Post-season WS:

Kobe: +3.8 (#1)

Shaq: +3.7



Post-season WS/48

Kobe: .260

Shaq: .260



Post-season VORP

Kobe: +1.6

Shaq: +1.6





And this how it looks for the season overall (RS+PS):

In 445 min with Kobe On and Shaq Off they had a net rating of -1.34

In 360 min with Shaq On and Kobe Off they had a net rating of -2.43



https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2000-01&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=406,977&OnlyCommonGames=true

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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#53 » by GregOden » Wed May 20, 2020 7:56 pm

BigDocta898 wrote:
Drou wrote:Iverson was nowhere near Kobe's level, so my answer is no.



Kobe could of never led tbat Sixers team to the finals


Wasn't that a terribly officiated ECF against the Bucks? Arguably Iverson shouldn't have lead the team to the Finals either.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#54 » by 2012NadalShadow » Wed May 20, 2020 7:58 pm

This is what Kobe did in 2001 at the age of 22:

vs. Trailblazers (Lakers win 3-0)

Kobe had 25/4.5/8 with 2.3 steals a game on 57% TS

Shaq had 27/16 with 1.0 block on 52% TS

vs. Kings (Lakers win 4-0)

Kobe had 35/9/4.5 with 1.5 steals on 59% TS

Shaq had 33/17 with 3.3 blocks on 59% TS

vs. Spurs (Lakers win 4-0)

Kobe had 33.5/7/7 with 1.5 steals and 1.0 blocks on 57% TS

Shaq had 27/13 with 1.3 blocks on 54% TS

vs. 76ers (Lakers win 4-1)

Kobe had 25/8/6 with 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks on 50% TS

Shaq had 33/16/5 with 3.5 blocks on 57% TS
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#55 » by 2012NadalShadow » Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 pm

Also, people on here seem to have a selective memory on Shaq and how close the Lakers were to losing in 2000 and 2002.

in game 7 of the 2000 WCF against the Blazers, Shaq only had 9 points entering the 4th quarter. The blazers had basically shut him down. If Brian Shaw doesn't hit those threes and the Blazers don't end up missing 12 straight shots, the Lakers would have lost. Shaq game 7 performance would have gone down as one of the worst collapse an MVP ever had in playoffs history.

In 2002, the Lakers were not more talented than the Kings. The Lakers needed to come back from 24 points down in game 4, had questionable officiating in game 6, and needed the Kings to miss 16 free throws and a wide open Peja 3 near the end of regulation just to beat the Kings.

As great as Shaq was from 2000-2002, he needed a lot of help especially in the 2000 and 2002 WCF to get past the Blazers and Kings.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#56 » by og15 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:06 pm

BigDocta898 wrote:
Drou wrote:Iverson was nowhere near Kobe's level, so my answer is no.



Kobe could of never led tbat Sixers team to the finals

This makes no sense, you realize the competition they had on their way there? A one man show Raptors that they barely scrapped by. A no defense Bucks that they barely scrapped by. There's absolutely no logical reason Kobe can't lead that team to the finals against the same competition unless one thinks that Vince or Ray Allen are just simply better than Kobe and his flawed, but elite defensive team couldn't beat their flawed teams.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#57 » by og15 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:16 pm

2012NadalShadow wrote:Also, people on here seem to have a selective memory on Shaq and how close the Lakers were to losing in 2000 and 2002.

in game 7 of the 2000 WCF against the Blazers, Shaq only had 9 points entering the 4th quarter. The blazers had basically shut him down. If Brian Shaw doesn't hit those threes and the Blazers don't end up missing 12 straight shots, the Lakers would have lost. Shaq game 7 performance would have gone down as one of the worst collapse an MVP ever had in playoffs history.

In 2002, the Lakers were not more talented than the Kings. The Lakers needed to come back from 24 points down in game 4, had questionable officiating in game 6, and needed the Kings to miss 16 free throws and a wide open Peja 3 near the end of regulation just to beat the Kings.

As great as Shaq was from 2000-2002, he needed a lot of help especially in the 2000 and 2002 WCF to get past the Blazers and Kings.
Yea, seriously, Shaq is great, dominant player, but he had series where he was contained (relative to his regular abilities), he had games where he couldn't get going as much on offense, his team was getting swept before Kobe developed, some people talk about the Lakers as if Shaq was just carrying everyone else for the ride. Yes, they are contenders with any other top guard, duh, of course, but to say they just win as much with players who can't bring as much to the table as Kobe when the Lakers had series that they legitimately could have lost, and where they were mere moments away from losing, that just makes no sense. They only season they steamrolled through everyone was 2001, which is the year I can certainly say they would still with AI.

I think some people take the fact that Shaq was extremely advantaged matchup wise in the finals and dominated extra in those series with how every series before the finals must also have been.

Sign5 wrote:
og15 wrote:
Sign5 wrote:They get AT LEAST 2, I'm certain of that. Shaq was that dominant to cover the gap between Kobe and AI (which isn't THAT sizable to begin with).

I don't know, the gap is pretty decent, Kobe was better on both ends, and it's not like they walked to championships. As dominant as Shaq was, he was getting first round exits before Kobe developed. How good is AI in the triangle? However good that is, is he as good as Kobe? Don't think anyone argues "yes". Then defensively, Kobe's contributions there was part of what put the Lakers over the edge in series', and AI just can't give you that, he's not anywhere as good defensively, and he makes you smaller in the backcourt.

Can AI get them over the hump vs the Blazers and the Kings? I'd say with AI they get one, but certainly not three.

Then with the Gasol teams, they aren't getting anything championships with AI instead of Kobe.
The gap is almost all on defense but Lakers role players were pretty stout overall that he could be covered. Scoring and facilitating-wise, Kobe wouldn't be as missed.

Gotta love the notion that Iverson was a bigger ball hog when he had several paltry scoring options throughout his career. Meanwhile Kobe garnered that label WITH arguably the most dominant player ever.
I can see they them struggling against a team like the Kings but I genuinely believe Shaq drags them to 2.

They win 0 with Gasol for sure.

I don't know where AI being a ball hog was in my post. My question is whether based on his specific skill set vs Kobe's and based on his playstyle, Iverson is as good as Kobe in the triangle. I don't believe he is, but that doesn't mean he would be bad, just not as good as Kobe was.

Phil was not meleable with the triangle, he wouldn't instill an offense that maximized Iverson, he would have Iverson playing in the triangle, because he was very rigid about the triangle being the best thing ever.

I'd give them 1 at a minimum and then 50/50 chance on a second one, but a definite no on getting three, Kobe's defensive advantage was critical in finishing some series' on the road to thne finals, and I can't just conclude that very close series' are all still won.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#58 » by tonyreyes123 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:27 pm

I've always been in the camp that any elite guard wins with those Lakers teams, so yeah AI gets 3 and may even make a case to get a FMVP
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#59 » by Ugalde » Wed May 20, 2020 11:43 pm

an exact swap Kobe for AI they maybe get 1 but probably 0. but if they can rebuild the team and go out and get a long defender to replace Kobe and not need Fisher they can probably pull out 3.
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Re: Replace Kobe with AI 

Post#60 » by 2012NadalShadow » Wed May 20, 2020 11:48 pm

Also, have people forgotten just how many shots Allen Iverson was taking in order to get his points.

Just look at the Raptors series:

Game 1: 36 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 7 steals on 11/34 (32.4%)

Game 2: 54 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steals on 21/39 (53.8%)

Game 3: 23 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 4 steals on 7/22 (31.8%)

Game 4: 30 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals on 10/30 (33.3%)

Game 5: 52 points, 2 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 steals on 21/32 (65.6%)

Game 6: 20 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 steals on 6/24 (25%)

Game 7: 21 points, 4 rebounds, 16 assists, 2 steals on 8/27 (29.6%)

Here is the Bucks series:

Game 1: 34 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steals on 13/35 (37.1%)

Game 2: 16 points, 3 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 steals on 5/26 (19.2%)

Game 3: Did not play

Game 4: 28 points, 5 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals on 10/32 (31.3%)

Game 5: 15 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 4 steals on 5/27 (18.5%)

Game 6: 46 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steals on 14/33 (42.4%)

Game 7: 44 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals on 17/33 (51.5%)

When you are given a green light to shoot as many shots as you want without having to worry about playing in a Triangle offense or the rest of the team, you should be able to score.

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