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VanWest82 wrote:Sheed was one of many in the golden age of the PF. TD, Dirk, KG, Malone, Webber, Bosh, Brand, JO, Amare, Marion, ZBo, LMA, Sheed. There are a lot of them. I'm sure I probably forgot someone.

dhsilv2 wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Sheed was one of many in the golden age of the PF. TD, Dirk, KG, Malone, Webber, Bosh, Brand, JO, Amare, Marion, ZBo, LMA, Sheed. There are a lot of them. I'm sure I probably forgot someone.

Golden aged drafted form 86 and played till today? That 30+ year era?

VanWest82 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Sheed was one of many in the golden age of the PF. TD, Dirk, KG, Malone, Webber, Bosh, Brand, JO, Amare, Marion, ZBo, LMA, Sheed. There are a lot of them. I'm sure I probably forgot someone.

Golden aged drafted form 86 and played till today? That 30+ year era?

I'd say the era was from 97 when Duncan was drafted up until Dirk won in 2011. You had a lot of PFs have big moments over that stretch. It was perhaps the league's deepest position in terms of perennial top 20 guys. Then three point shooting and faster pace changed everything.

dhsilv2 wrote:

kdot99 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.

Bosh was definitely better than Sheed, quite easily I would say. Impact, numbers, personal accolades, championships, he beats Sheed in all categories. He even made 2nd team All-NBA in his 4th season and led his team to a division title (yes the division was weak). Sheed was never capable of doing anything like that in his career -- or if he did, he didn't come close to showing it. Bosh was particularly a plus defender once he joined Miami. Sheed had a great defensive run once he joined Detroit (an already established elite defensive team) but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.

in the RAPM data we have bosh peaked 9th which doesn't put him above sheed who peaked 4th and has multiple finishes above 9th.

No sheed was not an elite defender when he went to the pistons but was already a well established elite defender long before that. He wasn't a plus defender, he was a DPOY level defender who likely was never good enough to be the DPOY but had an impact that historically would rank ahead of a large number of former DPOY's. Bosh at his peak was a plus defender actually pretty good though his defense and offensive impact never seemed to peak at the same time.

Career VORP 31.1 vs 38.4 or WS of 106.0 vs 105.1. You can't really argue non impact stats said Bosh was better either.

Now I agree imo Bosh was better, but the gap is razor thin. Anyone claiming impact and stats alone make a clear distinction is just wrong.

kdot99 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

kdot99 wrote:
Bosh was definitely better than Sheed, quite easily I would say. Impact, numbers, personal accolades, championships, he beats Sheed in all categories. He even made 2nd team All-NBA in his 4th season and led his team to a division title (yes the division was weak). Sheed was never capable of doing anything like that in his career -- or if he did, he didn't come close to showing it. Bosh was particularly a plus defender once he joined Miami. Sheed had a great defensive run once he joined Detroit (an already established elite defensive team) but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.

in the RAPM data we have bosh peaked 9th which doesn't put him above sheed who peaked 4th and has multiple finishes above 9th.

No sheed was not an elite defender when he went to the pistons but was already a well established elite defender long before that. He wasn't a plus defender, he was a DPOY level defender who likely was never good enough to be the DPOY but had an impact that historically would rank ahead of a large number of former DPOY's. Bosh at his peak was a plus defender actually pretty good though his defense and offensive impact never seemed to peak at the same time.

Career VORP 31.1 vs 38.4 or WS of 106.0 vs 105.1. You can't really argue non impact stats said Bosh was better either.

Now I agree imo Bosh was better, but the gap is razor thin. Anyone claiming impact and stats alone make a clear distinction is just wrong.

Rasheed played 300 more games than Chris, he had a lot in the tank left when he had to step away at 32 as an All-Star. Had they played the same number of games, the gap between their career WS would have been much larger, and likely with VORP as well (who can really say though). RAPM seems like a great stat, but I don't know much about it so I'm not going to speak on it. I will say that Rasheed played at his best when he became 3rd/4th option on an already championship caliber team and was asked to do much less offensively and focus on his strengths -- which I give him a lot of credit for.

Rasheed was a great player in his own right but he was never capable of being an All-NBA level offensive go-to player. By the time he became and elite defensive player, his offensive game had already dropped off significantly compared to Portland. The reason the gap may appear to razor thin between the two is because Sheed played more games and his peak performance occurred when he his offensive role was significantly reduced on an elite team.

Advanced stats aside, I did watch them both closely throughout the careers without the benefit of advanced stats available for most of their career. Sheed had a great career but his offensive output was not on the level on Bosh. He was a fantastic defensive player once joining the Pistons.

dhsilv2 wrote:

kdot99 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
in the RAPM data we have bosh peaked 9th which doesn't put him above sheed who peaked 4th and has multiple finishes above 9th.

No sheed was not an elite defender when he went to the pistons but was already a well established elite defender long before that. He wasn't a plus defender, he was a DPOY level defender who likely was never good enough to be the DPOY but had an impact that historically would rank ahead of a large number of former DPOY's. Bosh at his peak was a plus defender actually pretty good though his defense and offensive impact never seemed to peak at the same time.

Career VORP 31.1 vs 38.4 or WS of 106.0 vs 105.1. You can't really argue non impact stats said Bosh was better either.

Now I agree imo Bosh was better, but the gap is razor thin. Anyone claiming impact and stats alone make a clear distinction is just wrong.

Rasheed played 300 more games than Chris, he had a lot in the tank left when he had to step away at 32 as an All-Star. Had they played the same number of games, the gap between their career WS would have been much larger, and likely with VORP as well (who can really say though). RAPM seems like a great stat, but I don't know much about it so I'm not going to speak on it. I will say that Rasheed played at his best when he became 3rd/4th option on an already championship caliber team and was asked to do much less offensively and focus on his strengths -- which I give him a lot of credit for.

Rasheed was a great player in his own right but he was never capable of being an All-NBA level offensive go-to player. By the time he became and elite defensive player, his offensive game had already dropped off significantly compared to Portland. The reason the gap may appear to razor thin between the two is because Sheed played more games and his peak performance occurred when he his offensive role was significantly reduced on an elite team.

Advanced stats aside, I did watch them both closely throughout the careers without the benefit of advanced stats available for most of their career. Sheed had a great career but his offensive output was not on the level on Bosh. He was a fantastic defensive player once joining the Pistons.

Ignoring you're still incorrect assumption that sheed wasn't a great defender in portland, defense and offense are of equal value. Rasheed was the better player at their respective peaks because his defense was better than bosh's offense. Neither were great offensive players.

As for the 300 game gap, well Bosh didn't play those added games. It's a shame but that's part of who he is/was.

dk1115 wrote:I can't imagine him even cracking the top 50.

On the other hand I think Brad daugherty was extremely underrated on the all time centers conversation.

Paddy Brosso wrote:More or less top-15 / top-20. PF's better than Sheed:
Tim Duncan (he played many years C though)
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Charles Barkley
Bob Pettit
Elvin Hayes
Giannis Antetokounmpo (he's likely to win his 2nd MVP, so he will definitely climb some spots)
Pau Gasol (although he played half of his career C)
Anthony Davis
Chris Webber
Kevin McHale
Amar'e Stoudemire
LaMarcus Aldridge
Blake Griffin
These players are my top-15. Then we have Chris Bosh, Shawn Kemp, Rasheed Wallace...

OdomFan wrote:

Paddy Brosso wrote:More or less top-15 / top-20. PF's better than Sheed:
Tim Duncan (he played many years C though)
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Charles Barkley
Bob Pettit
Elvin Hayes
Giannis Antetokounmpo (he's likely to win his 2nd MVP, so he will definitely climb some spots)
Pau Gasol (although he played half of his career C)
Anthony Davis
Chris Webber
Kevin McHale
Amar'e Stoudemire
LaMarcus Aldridge
Blake Griffin
These players are my top-15. Then we have Chris Bosh, Shawn Kemp, Rasheed Wallace...

I would most definitely take Sheed over Amare any day of the week, and I'm sure even those Suns teams would if they could replace him with Sheed around 2005-2006. Amare would have benefited going to college to learn defense among other things. Sheed was good on both ends.

kdot99 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

kdot99 wrote:
Rasheed played 300 more games than Chris, he had a lot in the tank left when he had to step away at 32 as an All-Star. Had they played the same number of games, the gap between their career WS would have been much larger, and likely with VORP as well (who can really say though). RAPM seems like a great stat, but I don't know much about it so I'm not going to speak on it. I will say that Rasheed played at his best when he became 3rd/4th option on an already championship caliber team and was asked to do much less offensively and focus on his strengths -- which I give him a lot of credit for.

Rasheed was a great player in his own right but he was never capable of being an All-NBA level offensive go-to player. By the time he became and elite defensive player, his offensive game had already dropped off significantly compared to Portland. The reason the gap may appear to razor thin between the two is because Sheed played more games and his peak performance occurred when he his offensive role was significantly reduced on an elite team.

Advanced stats aside, I did watch them both closely throughout the careers without the benefit of advanced stats available for most of their career. Sheed had a great career but his offensive output was not on the level on Bosh. He was a fantastic defensive player once joining the Pistons.

Ignoring you're still incorrect assumption that sheed wasn't a great defender in portland, defense and offense are of equal value. Rasheed was the better player at their respective peaks because his defense was better than bosh's offense. Neither were great offensive players.

As for the 300 game gap, well Bosh didn't play those added games. It's a shame but that's part of who he is/was.

Haven't logged on here in a minute. To say that Wallace was a better player at their peaks because you believe his defense was better than Bosh's offense is huge leap and simply invalid in logic as those two have no correlation. Chris Bosh was a great offensive player...he averaged 19 PPG on 49% shooting, with 5 straight years of 22+ a game on high efficiency. But I guess his accolades of 11x straight All-star games dont speak to that?

For all the talk about his talent, Sheed was never close to the offensive player as Bosh. If he was, he would have shown on the stat sheets.

Good day, sir.

dhsilv2 wrote:

HotelVitale wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote: I don't think any good stretch 4 could become dirk because most of them really have practiced that hard. I don't think sheed did. I honestly don't think he really liked basketball all that much. Everything just came to him THAT easily. And no while he wouldn't be Dirk, he was more athletic, more explosive, and should have been a better post player. He just also could have had a mid range jumper close enough to dirk's. Remember this is a guy who was better at mid range shooting from 22-25 years old. Guys don't have these kinds of early career peaks like he did, unless...they just didn't keep trying.

I dunno, just looks you're trying to simplify the story by framing the whole thing around an assumption that at the very least has a questionable foundation, or is more complicated. Every NBA player shoots hundreds of shots every day, and I spent a lot time around NCAA D1 athletes who had a wide range of personality types--and all of them, even the knuckleheads, still worked every single day for hours at their game. And I worked with some serious knuckleheads. (Google Marques Slocum, e.g.). Rasheed was never 'not working hard' or focusing intensely on his game, and I don't think that putting in a little more time like the turbo-freaks would have given him the chance to overcome some of the physical limitations he had. I agree obviously that having an ultra-competitive attitude helps, but I think we vastly overrate its importance because it fits with a story that we all like about meritocracy (and resonates with the everyday truth that strong will is important for getting ahead).

I also agree that he wasn't committed to maximizing everything he could, and I can obviously see that he had some sort of immaturity/adhd/trauma thing that made him make odd decisions sometimes and have strange outbursts a lot of the time. (I now work with people in PA state prisons, and his shiftiness, random outbursts followed by missing important things, constant distraction is pretty common among folks who grew up in North Philly, looks a lot like trauma response things.) I think that's a factor here, but Sheed was always very competitive and overall I really don't think that it's as simple as 'he had a strange attitude' = 'his attitude is why he wasn't a megastar.' Stars have to have something they can always do at great volume or an answer to everything the defense throws at them, Sheed just didn't have that. Dirk for example is still 96% of Dirk if he doesn't have that--and while that 5% matters a lot, and the gap between Sheed and Dirk is definitely bigger than that 4%.

99% of players, I'd agree with you. Sheed is a unicorn man.

That said why did dirk suck as a rookie?

The thing is both these guys I'm sure could hit 100 mid range jumpers in a row in a gym by themselves. It's what they did in the nba to adapt to nba defenses and the speed and athletics of players in the league that can take a guy from a gym god to an nba one. Sheed was a better player in most shooting metrics at the start of his career, not at his apex when he was actually at his best in terms of defense and impact. That speaks volumes to his lack of work at the nba level on his shooting game and it's really no surprise.

camby23 wrote:And how good he was in his prime?

Pg81 wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

HotelVitale wrote: I dunno, just looks you're trying to simplify the story by framing the whole thing around an assumption that at the very least has a questionable foundation, or is more complicated. Every NBA player shoots hundreds of shots every day, and I spent a lot time around NCAA D1 athletes who had a wide range of personality types--and all of them, even the knuckleheads, still worked every single day for hours at their game. And I worked with some serious knuckleheads. (Google Marques Slocum, e.g.). Rasheed was never 'not working hard' or focusing intensely on his game, and I don't think that putting in a little more time like the turbo-freaks would have given him the chance to overcome some of the physical limitations he had. I agree obviously that having an ultra-competitive attitude helps, but I think we vastly overrate its importance because it fits with a story that we all like about meritocracy (and resonates with the everyday truth that strong will is important for getting ahead).

I also agree that he wasn't committed to maximizing everything he could, and I can obviously see that he had some sort of immaturity/adhd/trauma thing that made him make odd decisions sometimes and have strange outbursts a lot of the time. (I now work with people in PA state prisons, and his shiftiness, random outbursts followed by missing important things, constant distraction is pretty common among folks who grew up in North Philly, looks a lot like trauma response things.) I think that's a factor here, but Sheed was always very competitive and overall I really don't think that it's as simple as 'he had a strange attitude' = 'his attitude is why he wasn't a megastar.' Stars have to have something they can always do at great volume or an answer to everything the defense throws at them, Sheed just didn't have that. Dirk for example is still 96% of Dirk if he doesn't have that--and while that 5% matters a lot, and the gap between Sheed and Dirk is definitely bigger than that 4%.

99% of players, I'd agree with you. Sheed is a unicorn man.

That said why did dirk suck as a rookie?

The thing is both these guys I'm sure could hit 100 mid range jumpers in a row in a gym by themselves. It's what they did in the nba to adapt to nba defenses and the speed and athletics of players in the league that can take a guy from a gym god to an nba one. Sheed was a better player in most shooting metrics at the start of his career, not at his apex when he was actually at his best in terms of defense and impact. That speaks volumes to his lack of work at the nba level on his shooting game and it's really no surprise.

Are you seriously asking this and only this? Why not ask how he managed to transform from a terrible rookie into one of the best players in the league as well?
To answer this question, because Dirk came from one of the most backwater basketball countries in Europe where he was leading a minor league with like 32/12. On top of that he did not start as a basketball player thinking of it as a women's sport because his mother and sister played it and so started with tennis and handball and switched only in his early teens to basketball.