Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position?

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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#21 » by Hellcrooner » Fri May 22, 2020 12:44 am

if you want to tell tall tales anywhere 6-12
if you want to be a d to him somwhere 20-25

if you are fair and straight somwhere 10-20
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#22 » by DavidSterned » Fri May 22, 2020 1:08 am

HotelVitale wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:Very good. His game gave Duncan a lot of problems. He would be today's perfect power forward. Stretch 4 with incredible defense. Had an unstoppable turn around J but floated. He didn't bring it often enough and so he's somewhere on the 3rd tier of power forwards. Whereever Webber ranks. Porzingis plays a lot like him.
Sheed is overrated. Incredibly inefficient on offense. His post game (which people claim he didn't use enough) wasn't as good as revisionists will tell you. Pretty, unblockable turnaround J, but that was it. Terrible TS%, didn't get to the line. Poor rebounder. Very good defender, though. But more so post defender. Young Dirk wrecked him in the 2003 playoffs. Overrated because people act like "if he tried" he'd be TD/Dirk/KG level. No. He never had that skill-level. He'd be a better defending, worse passing Webber at best.


Feeling most of this but Webber was extremely athletic and nimble his first like 8 years in the league, also had a terrific handle and was quit a bit thicker/stronger than Rasheed. Rasheed had a pretty nice jumper and was pretty mobile for a big man, though was also fairly stiff and had no shake to him. I don't think there's any physical comparison and don't see how Rasheed could've ever played at Webber's peak levels.


Young/Prime Sheed was extremely athletic. Stiff?

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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#23 » by druggas » Fri May 22, 2020 1:08 am

Curmudgeon wrote:I would easily put Sheed in the same tier as Webber. Sheed was better defensively. He couldn't keep his mouth shut, though, and the unnecessary technicals just drove me crazy.

This is the correct answer.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#24 » by brutalitops » Fri May 22, 2020 1:27 am

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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#25 » by HotelVitale » Fri May 22, 2020 1:58 am

DavidSterned wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote: Sheed is overrated. Incredibly inefficient on offense. His post game (which people claim he didn't use enough) wasn't as good as revisionists will tell you. Pretty, unblockable turnaround J, but that was it. Terrible TS%, didn't get to the line. Poor rebounder. Very good defender, though. But more so post defender. Young Dirk wrecked him in the 2003 playoffs. Overrated because people act like "if he tried" he'd be TD/Dirk/KG level. No. He never had that skill-level. He'd be a better defending, worse passing Webber at best.
Feeling most of this but Webber was extremely athletic and nimble his first like 8 years in the league, also had a terrific handle and was quit a bit thicker/stronger than Rasheed. Rasheed had a pretty nice jumper and was pretty mobile for a big man, though was also fairly stiff and had no shake to him. I don't think there's any physical comparison and don't see how Rasheed could've ever played at Webber's peak levels.
Young/Prime Sheed was extremely athletic. Stiff?


Not at all in the way Garnett or young Webber was, they were supple and shifty and could go around people and glide through the lane. Sheed had none of that, straight line guy at best who never went around anyone. Just not a part of his game. He was also mechanical in his moves with the ball, him doing those stiff, back-bent, butt-sticking-way-out moves is the first image that comes up in my mind with him. He had a nice quick jump that helped a lot with his putbacks and finishing, though.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#26 » by HotelVitale » Fri May 22, 2020 2:14 am

TheBonzaiEffect wrote: Feeling most of this but Webber was extremely athletic and nimble his first like 8 years in the league, also had a terrific handle and was quit a bit thicker/stronger than Rasheed. Rasheed had a pretty nice jumper and was pretty mobile for a big man, though was also fairly stiff and had no shake to him. I don't think there's any physical comparison and don't see how Rasheed could've ever played at Webber's peak levels.
Fair, I guess I just mean a volume but inefficient scorer, which C-Webb was. Didn't get to the FT line or shoot 3s (Sheed at least did that), and both settled for lots of mid-range J's. Maybe if he "tried" Sheed would have been a better rebounder, I dk.[/quote] Webber was a much better rebounder, always, and he might not be as inefficient as you think. Have to remember he was playing in the era of junk efficiency. During Webber's 5-year peak from like '97-2002, the league average TS% was under 52%, so Webber was averaging almost 25/11/4.5 at above league average efficiency.

Sheed by contrast had a 5-year peak of 18/8/2, with slightly better efficiency, more like 55.5% to Webber's 53.5%. Just a generally much less productive guy.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#27 » by prophet_of_rage » Fri May 22, 2020 2:16 am

Spice Melange wrote:I dont think Sheed ranks very high. Sheed was like a poor mans KG with the mentality of DeMarcus Cousins and the overall impact of ZBo.
He was talentwise KG's peer and he has a championship he contributed to. He wasn't as effective as KG but he did more than ZBo.

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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#28 » by mastermixer » Fri May 22, 2020 2:19 am

I think I just have the echo what most people already said. Extremely smart player. Extremely talented. But was never fully dialed in or committed to the game.

Besides all the terrible attitude antics, he never physically brought is body to the next level to have what it takes to have be able to hold his own against the gauntlet of talented PFs in the West.

You can kinda see that in how he was able to come into his own in the East with the Pistons where he didn’t have to go against an All-Star Level PF on a nightly basis like out west in the early 2000’s.

I also believe is a supremely talented and underrated defender. Imo he was actually a better team defender than Ben Wallace, and it was Sheeds ability to read the other team and anchor the D, that allowed Ben to roam and rack up stats.

Wish he would have seen what he could if fully committed.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#29 » by HomoSapien » Fri May 22, 2020 2:20 am

I've never heard Wallace described as stiff before. The guy had hops, was super nimble and quick on his feet, and had fast reflexes on defense too.



Rasheed was so talented, especially amongst his peers. He was better defensively than Webber. He was bigger than Malone and Barkley. More athletic than Duncan. More skilled offensively than Garnett. Could shoot better than all of them. He really had it all, and not in the Monta Ellis way. But at the end of the day he never averaged 20 points, never averaged more than 8 rebounds, and never led his team like those guys did. The guy really got gifted some incredibly talented teammates and really should have had more success than he did.

I loved Sheed though. He was ultimately pretty good for the game.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#30 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:01 am

HomoSapien wrote:He wouldn't rank very high. Incredibly talented player and impactful at that too, but he just didn't have the "it" factor and was a surprisingly soft-rebounder. Off the top of my head all these guy are ahead of him.

Duncan
KG
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Webber
McHale
Rodman
Gasol
Petit
Kemp
McAdoo
Cummings
Amare
Bosh
Hayes
Griffin

It's a shame, because on a good day, he could easily hang with any of these guys. I think he's closer to the Elton Brand, Marion, Randolph tier of PFs.


Wow Brand AND Wallace are FR better than multiple players on the last!

Lets start with Sheed was 84th on the player comp top 100 in 2017, one of the few lists that both requires voting AND analysis with each vote. Brand was 87th and to be honest imo Brand was kinda forgotten and should possibly have been higher.

Guys behind them you listed.

Rodman (85 so between the two), Amare (rightfully not included), Kemp (also rightfully not inclued), Griffin (perhaps in consideration today as that was 2017), Cummings (that was is no offense but imo laughable, sheed's defensive gap was FAR too big), Webber did finish 1 spot ahead of rasheed but frankly looking back, I was likely the one to push that one over and I was wrong.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#31 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:02 am

Laimbeer wrote:He doesn't.


not how rankings work...and he absolutely does! He's an all time great player, just due to some weird thing fans have about only discussing 50 or so players he gets left off.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#32 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:05 am

HomoSapien wrote:LaMarcus Aldridge might be a decent modern-day comparison in terms of impact. There are days where you can convince yourself that you can build a playoff contender around Aldridge (when he was younger) but at the end of the day you know that he's never going to be the lead guy on a contender. You know he's really good, but at the end of the day you wish he were better.


The difference is Wallace when he's asked to play defense and score in spots suddenly becomes an elite top 10 player.

RAPM

2001 (NPI) 18th
2002 (Non NPI and unless listed assume so forward) 13
2003 7
2004 4
2005 42
2006 13
2007 22
2008 17
2009 29

The guy was absolutely awesome defensively and for some reason he never gets the respect on that end that he deserves while still being an impact offensive player.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#33 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:10 am

Spice Melange wrote:I dont think Sheed ranks very high. Sheed was like a poor mans KG with the mentality of DeMarcus Cousins and the overall impact of ZBo.


I can't think of a worse comp to Sheed than KG. Beyond both had good mid range jumpers they were nothing alike. Sheed was a better rim protector, a lot better. Meanwhile KG was faster, more mobile and far better at guarding in space. Offensively Sheed was better in the post, slower, less a ball handler, and honestly a bit weak as a passer. KG was better in the face up game, a great big man ball handler, and god level as a passer.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#34 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:13 am

HotelVitale wrote:
Goudelock wrote:I didn't get to see his prime years. But from what I've heard from older fans, Rasheed Wallace was a very good player who would have been a transcendently incredible player if he had the desire to be that. Seriously, I've heard at least a half-dozen people wistfully talk about how Mr. "Ball Don't Lie" should have been just as good as Duncan or Dirk or KG in his prime years.
Which makes me incredibly skeptical when I hear people now say that Wallace/Lamar Odom/Baron Davis would be SUPERSTARS if they played today. They would be held back by the very same thing that held them back in their heyday.


He was very talented but I think the talk of him as a Duncan/Dirk whatever is about people exaggerating his mental quirks and not focusing on his physical game's limitations. He didn't have a good handle or first step and wasn't a super quick-twitch athlete, so he wasn't a threat off the dribble; he could post up but wasn't particularly strong, quick, or wily so he wasn't going to dominate there; he had good height and length but wasn't elite or special in either category; and he had nice touch but wasn't a super standout NBA shooter or anything. He was effective at jump shooting, rebounding/put backs, and as a post guy, but he wasn't able to do any of those things at huge volume or against anyone.

His weird personality did cost him sometimes on offense and defense, but to my eyes even if he made great decisions he didn't have any particular skill or ability that would've made him a superstar. Just a good player who could rebound, defend, and score inside or outside if the situation was right.


You gotta remember. Guys like KG and Duncan had to have the gyms closed to keep them out in the summer. Those guys would train 24 hours a day if their bodies could have let them. Sheed was rocking a legit beer belly by the end of his career. Sheed wasn't stronger because sheed didn't care. Sheed likely is never a great ball handler, but that didn't really stop Dirk. Sheed was a top tier defender, top 5 in the league at his peak. He was an impact offensive guy. He did all this while seriously not putting in half the effort most superstars put in. People talk about his mentality on the court, but he wasn't any better off it. he was just a freakishly gifted athlete who didn't have to work hard to be one of the top 10 impact guys at his peak and a legit top 25 player for a pretty long stretch.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#35 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:18 am

TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote: Sheed is overrated. Incredibly inefficient on offense. His post game (which people claim he didn't use enough) wasn't as good as revisionists will tell you. Pretty, unblockable turnaround J, but that was it. Terrible TS%, didn't get to the line. Poor rebounder. Very good defender, though. But more so post defender. Young Dirk wrecked him in the 2003 playoffs. Overrated because people act like "if he tried" he'd be TD/Dirk/KG level. No. He never had that skill-level. He'd be a better defending, worse passing Webber at best.


Feeling most of this but Webber was extremely athletic and nimble his first like 8 years in the league, also had a terrific handle and was quit a bit thicker/stronger than Rasheed. Rasheed had a pretty nice jumper and was pretty mobile for a big man, though was also fairly stiff and had no shake to him. I don't think there's any physical comparison and don't see how Rasheed could've ever played at Webber's peak levels.


Fair, I guess I just mean a volume but inefficient scorer, which C-Webb was. Didn't get to the FT line or shoot 3s (Sheed at least did that), and both settled for lots of mid-range J's. Maybe if he "tried" Sheed would have been a better rebounder, I dk.


Sheed's 2nd-4th year were his best TS% years. Then his 01 6h season. He was an inefficent shooters due to a complete lack of effort and trying. Guys like Tim Duncan and KG put likely 20-50 THOUSAND more hours in the gym working on their game than Sheed did. Sheed barely did enough to stay in shape and by the end he wasn't even doing that.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#36 » by dhsilv2 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:22 am

HomoSapien wrote:I've never heard Wallace described as stiff before. The guy had hops, was super nimble and quick on his feet, and had fast reflexes on defense too.


Rasheed was so talented, especially amongst his peers. He was better defensively than Webber. He was bigger than Malone and Barkley. More athletic than Duncan. More skilled offensively than Garnett. Could shoot better than all of them. He really had it all, and not in the Monta Ellis way. But at the end of the day he never averaged 20 points, never averaged more than 8 rebounds, and never led his team like those guys did. The guy really got gifted some incredibly talented teammates and really should have had more success than he did.

I loved Sheed though. He was ultimately pretty good for the game.


He was a more skilled scorer than Garnett by a bit, but no he wasn't more skilled offensively. KG's ball handling, passing, off ball movement, etc were all far if not other planet better. He was just a more skilled scorer. And even as shooters I'd say they're pretty close.

KG was better 16-3P and 10-16. KG didn't shoot 3's and Sheed did. Both if we're looking at their jumpers, it's debatable.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#37 » by HomoSapien » Fri May 22, 2020 3:37 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:I've never heard Wallace described as stiff before. The guy had hops, was super nimble and quick on his feet, and had fast reflexes on defense too.


Rasheed was so talented, especially amongst his peers. He was better defensively than Webber. He was bigger than Malone and Barkley. More athletic than Duncan. More skilled offensively than Garnett. Could shoot better than all of them. He really had it all, and not in the Monta Ellis way. But at the end of the day he never averaged 20 points, never averaged more than 8 rebounds, and never led his team like those guys did. The guy really got gifted some incredibly talented teammates and really should have had more success than he did.

I loved Sheed though. He was ultimately pretty good for the game.


He was a more skilled scorer than Garnett by a bit, but no he wasn't more skilled offensively. KG's ball handling, passing, off ball movement, etc were all far if not other planet better. He was just a more skilled scorer. And even as shooters I'd say they're pretty close.

KG was better 16-3P and 10-16. KG didn't shoot 3's and Sheed did. Both if we're looking at their jumpers, it's debatable.


I was using offense to mean scoring, but yes I agree that KG is better at the things you mentioned.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#38 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 3:46 am

He's probably in the 30-35th all-time range.

A very good, but not great, player who didn't live up to his potential although he was good enough to be a key player on a championship team.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#39 » by Jakay » Fri May 22, 2020 3:52 am

brutalitops wrote:Paul Millsap Good.


LMA was a pretty good comparison in some ways, but this is like spot on, considering that no two players are identical. Especially in the "you can count on this" style of night in night out production.

Just more like, if Paul Millsap had rabies.
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Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#40 » by HomoSapien » Fri May 22, 2020 3:57 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:He wouldn't rank very high. Incredibly talented player and impactful at that too, but he just didn't have the "it" factor and was a surprisingly soft-rebounder. Off the top of my head all these guy are ahead of him.

Duncan
KG
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Webber
McHale
Rodman
Gasol
Petit
Kemp
McAdoo
Cummings
Amare
Bosh
Hayes
Griffin

It's a shame, because on a good day, he could easily hang with any of these guys. I think he's closer to the Elton Brand, Marion, Randolph tier of PFs.


Wow Brand AND Wallace are FR better than multiple players on the last!

Lets start with Sheed was 84th on the player comp top 100 in 2017, one of the few lists that both requires voting AND analysis with each vote. Brand was 87th and to be honest imo Brand was kinda forgotten and should possibly have been higher.

Guys behind them you listed.

Rodman (85 so between the two), Amare (rightfully not included), Kemp (also rightfully not inclued), Griffin (perhaps in consideration today as that was 2017), Cummings (that was is no offense but imo laughable, sheed's defensive gap was FAR too big), Webber did finish 1 spot ahead of rasheed but frankly looking back, I was likely the one to push that one over and I was wrong.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'll concede Terry Cummings because I never saw him play in his prime, but statistically felt like his prime was stronger than Wallace's despite Wallace being a better defender.

While I can appreciate the argument for Sheed (and again, I absolutely loved him as a player) IMO Amare, Griffin, and Kemp at their best were better than Wallace. Amare in particular was on his way to becoming a franchise player before injuries derailed him. Rasheed was never that kind of building block and his overall playoff numbers are so-so.

Rodman was a better defender and rebounder and is in the hall of fame. Rasheed probably won't make it. That said, if you were starting from scratch, you probably pick Sheed over Rodman.
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