Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position?

[grpistons]

LaMarcus Aldridge might be a decent modern-day comparison in terms of impact. There are days where you can convince yourself that you can build a playoff contender around Aldridge (when he was younger) but at the end of the day you know that he's never going to be the lead guy on a contender. You know he's really good, but at the end of the day you wish he were better.

100%. Lamarcus with balls, and an obsession with 420. You have Rasheed

Idk,

Rasheed Wallace was a dunk machine before he aged, and was a more fluid athlete than Aldridge in his prime. Aldridge always looked a bit stiff to me, but I guess in terms of production they were pretty similar.

I guess that just adds to the point of how talented he was and also probably underachieving.

[SeattleJazzFan]

pretty low, tbh. never made an all-nba team. if you don't even make one all nba third team, you are off the rankings - you really don't deserve to be ranked.

[NZB2323]

You're being a little tough, and I assume you know that. No one has ever brought him up in an all time great conversation, so I'm not sure where that came from? Lots of arguments against Sheed, and some people have a dislike for his behavior as a player and his attitude towards the league. I get that. I'm confident you also know the stats that show Rasheed's value - again, a lot like Rodman. He's one of those weird ones to place.

Rodman won DPOTY 2x, was all-defensive 1st team 7x, all-defensive 2nd team 1x, is a 5x NBA champion, won 72 games in a season, was a 7x rebounding champion, and a 2x all-NBA player.

Rasheed won 1 championship, never made an all-NBA team or an all-defensive team, and never averaged double digits in rebounds for a season.

He did leave Robert Horry wide open for a game winning 3 though. And set the record in technicals for a season, which gave the other team free throws.

As a fan of both players Rodman never, ever made an all NBA. Never sniffed a 2nd team, and made 2 3rd teams in none of the seasons you're referencing. As for the championships, do I have to remind you of whom they both played with?

Dennis Rodman made two all-NBA 3rd teams. How can you say he never made an all NBA? And what seasons do you think I'm referencing? I'm totaling career accomplishments.

As for their teammates, yes Jordan and Pippen were amazing, but if you compare the Detroit teammates I think it's close.

Isiah Thomas - Chauncey Billups
Joe Dumars - Rip Hamilton
Mark Aguirre - Tayshaun Prince
Bill Lambier - Ben Wallace

The main reason why both squads won was because of their defense. Ben Wallace was the best defender on his teams, and Dennis Rodman was the best defender on his teams.

[Bwelc679]

The weirdest thing about Sheed was his willingness to get physical on defense and unwillingness to get physical on offense.

This is highly inaccurate. Go watch any games from his peak in Portland and see him battle for position possession after possession. They just never had the guards who knew how to throw entry passes so at times he gave up when they weren't getting it to him. Now that's a horrible attitude don't get me wrong but he definitely was a physical offensive player when he was at his peak.

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[the sea duck]

the narrative on Sheed while he was young was that he was every bit as talented as his peer superstars (KG, Dirk, Duncan) but attitude problems held him back. after he won a championship, the narrative switched a little to him being in a different category because he proved to be a winner (even before KG and Dirk) yet didn't put up their numbers or carry his team like they did.

[NuggetsWY]

When Rasheed first came into the league, I thought he'd be great, but as others have said, he just wasn't consistent.
In some games he was great and in some games he wasn't. It didn't seem to matter who the opponent was. I never found a pattern. Some players play better against better opponents, some play better against lesser opponents.

Rasheed was a man that you just had to accept for who he was. He seemed like a good teammate and I'll give him this credit, he was exactly who he wanted to be as a man, both on the court and off the court.

[Not2BeBothered]

Sheed was an all-NBA talent who had the mental fortitude of a 12 year old kid. He was amazing when he was locked in, but it usually took him getting upset to bring that talent out. Otherwise he played with a passive seeming indifference that could be really befuddling. And when he did get upset there was an at least equal chance that he would fixate needlessly on the refs or do something to get thrown out of the game.

Sheed was just never cut out to be a go-to guy or a true leader, even though he had the talent to be. His personality traits could be endearing when he was a backseat role player like he was in Detroit, but when he was the leader and face of the team they could be maddening. The Portland teams at the time desperately needed someone who could steer the ship and take over in big moments, and maintain their poise. Hence why they failed with Sheed.

Sheed was the 5th best PF at his peak (00-01) behind Duncan, Garnett, Webber, and young Dirk (old Malone was better before that). He was also ejected from, I think, 7 different games in that season alone.

On an all-time ranking he's also behind a number of other guys, like Barkley, Pettit, Schayes, McHale, Hayes, Gasol, even Aldridge is probably a bit better now as well. He'd be pretty close to Shawn Kemp and Kevin Love, I suppose.

That’s not fair to say that about his mental fortitude, because he was complaining that the refs had it out for him and how easy it is for refs to rig games, and he was right

[SelfishPlayer]

He doesn't rank high but he could compete against the best at a high level on both ends of the floor. He could turn it on when he needed to do so. He's a champion not a hall of famer. He had GOAT talent but without the will and work ethic.

[babyjax13]

And how good he was in his prime?

Very good. His game gave Duncan a lot of problems. He would be today's perfect power forward. Stretch 4 with incredible defense. Had an unstoppable turn around J but floated. He didn't bring it often enough and so he's somewhere on the 3rd tier of power forwards. Whereever Webber ranks. Porzingis plays a lot like him.

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Sheed is overrated. Incredibly inefficient on offense. His post game (which people claim he didn't use enough) wasn't as good as revisionists will tell you. Pretty, unblockable turnaround J, but that was it. Terrible TS%, didn't get to the line. Poor rebounder. Very good defender, though. But more so post defender. Young Dirk wrecked him in the 2003 playoffs. Overrated because people act like "if he tried" he'd be TD/Dirk/KG level. No. He never had that skill-level. He'd be a better defending, worse passing Webber at best.

Exactly this.

[MrBigShot]

People romanticize Sheed a bit. He was simply not as talented as the likes of Dirk, KG, or Duncan. He did virtually everything you could possibly ask from a bigman to do, and he was a damn good player, but I don't really think he peaked too far off of what his ceiling was.

[HMFFL]

Sheed lacked focus. He was good but only great at times. The best thing that ever happened to him in the league was going to Detroit because they had a solid foundations of veterans. Their championship team was focus and determined. Sheed help put them over the top.

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[Yoshun]

Sheed was a solid player who seemed to rise to the challenge when he played better players. He was a very good player who finished his career right where he should have. It's ok to say that, it doesn't make him some underachiever.

[SSUBluesman]

The bolded explains how we got to 16 (17?) pages on this topic. "He could have done X and he didn't, but I'm going to argue like it actually happened. "

His inconsistency, temperament, demeanor, etc. is the reason for the underwhelming output but we're fed bull**** like hE pLaYeD wItH eLiTe ReBoUnDeRs.

Understanding a player's role on the floor and adding that context to their raw box score output is essential in any real discussion. This isn't 2000 and we aren't on an AOL message board trolling people. There's a reason the guy played 1100+ NBA games and another 170 playoff games. There's a reason he's top 30 in NBA history in minutes played in the playoffs. While many people like to speak poetically about how good Sheed COULD have been. The reality is a large number of fans don't realize just how good he ACTUALLY WAS.

Team rank in defensive rebounding

97 - 2nd
98 - 3rd
99 - 3rd
00 - 9th
01 - 11th
02 - 3rd
03 - 13th

04 trade year a bit hard to break it out.

05 - 5th
06 - 25th
07 - 25th
08 - 12th

Over those 11 years his teams other than those last 3 with the Pistons were dominate rebounding teams. You think his teams were made that many years of being a top 3 defensive rebounding team with one of their big men sucking as a rebounder? Just not boxing out or not playing his role? I never made the claim he was an elite rebounder. But Shawn Marion was by no means a far better rebounder either and that's one of the guys being compared to him and being called a much better rebounder. If you want to rank Kevin Love's rebounding way ahead, go right away. That's perfectly reasonable.

This might be a crazy idea but I think the "elite rebounders" are more important to a "dominate rebounding team" than the guy "playing his role". That probably helps explain why the Blazers rebounding numbers look like this according to basketball reference, sorted by team defensive rebounds per game with the seasons ranging from 1991-1992 to 2002-2003. When Rasheed was on a different team, in college, or in high school I helpfully included that in parentheses.

92 - 4th (High School)
93 - 8th (High School)
94 - 7th (UNC)
95 - 6th (UNC)
96 - 2nd (WAS)
97 - 3rd
98 - 2nd
99 -3rd
00 - 11th
01 -17th
02 -18th
03 -25th

Judging by those rankings, the Blazers were an established elite defensive rebounding team when Rasheed was still in puberty, and remained so until the Blazers could be argued to be "his" team. When they finish outside of the top 10 for the first time, Rasheed leads the team in MPG. The season before (98-99) they finished 3rd with him as a part time starter and being 4th on the team in MPG.

[dc]

Sheed was a solid player who seemed to rise to the challenge when he played better players. He was a very good player who finished his career right where he should have. It's ok to say that, it doesn't make him some underachiever.

I agree with this. He seemed to up his game whenever playing vs. Duncan or KG, so that's why people tout his "top end" abilities as a guy with a higher peak that he never quite achieved. Agreed with others that he was never a true franchise guy and just lacked the ability and mentality for that.

But I think you could make the argument he underachieved a bit for most of his career and his being a hot head held him back. I think if he fulfilled his potential, maybe he reaches something of a Ginobili/Worthy level player. Not a franchise #1, but a definite foundational piece and HOFer.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Rasheed is very hard to assess. He did really feel comfortable being the first option when he was on Portland, but those who saw those years and some of the Piston years know he could take over in the post. He had the size, skill, and strength to score in the post at will. However, he often preferred to just hang out on the perimeter.

He was one of the best post defenders in the NBA. Duncan stated that he was the best defender of the post that he played against. He and Ben Wallace deserve a lot of credit for holding Duncan to well below average % in the 2005 NBA finals.

[dhsilv2]

The bolded explains how we got to 16 (17?) pages on this topic. "He could have done X and he didn't, but I'm going to argue like it actually happened. "

His inconsistency, temperament, demeanor, etc. is the reason for the underwhelming output but we're fed bull**** like hE pLaYeD wItH eLiTe ReBoUnDeRs.

Understanding a player's role on the floor and adding that context to their raw box score output is essential in any real discussion. This isn't 2000 and we aren't on an AOL message board trolling people. There's a reason the guy played 1100+ NBA games and another 170 playoff games. There's a reason he's top 30 in NBA history in minutes played in the playoffs. While many people like to speak poetically about how good Sheed COULD have been. The reality is a large number of fans don't realize just how good he ACTUALLY WAS.

Team rank in defensive rebounding

97 - 2nd
98 - 3rd
99 - 3rd
00 - 9th
01 - 11th
02 - 3rd
03 - 13th

04 trade year a bit hard to break it out.

05 - 5th
06 - 25th
07 - 25th
08 - 12th

Over those 11 years his teams other than those last 3 with the Pistons were dominate rebounding teams. You think his teams were made that many years of being a top 3 defensive rebounding team with one of their big men sucking as a rebounder? Just not boxing out or not playing his role? I never made the claim he was an elite rebounder. But Shawn Marion was by no means a far better rebounder either and that's one of the guys being compared to him and being called a much better rebounder. If you want to rank Kevin Love's rebounding way ahead, go right away. That's perfectly reasonable.

This might be a crazy idea but I think the "elite rebounders" are more important to a "dominate rebounding team" than the guy "playing his role". That probably helps explain why the Blazers rebounding numbers look like this according to basketball reference, sorted by team defensive rebounds per game with the seasons ranging from 1991-1992 to 2002-2003. When Rasheed was on a different team, in college, or in high school I helpfully included that in parentheses.

92 - 4th (High School)
93 - 8th (High School)
94 - 7th (UNC)
95 - 6th (UNC)
96 - 2nd (WAS)
97 - 3rd
98 - 2nd
99 -3rd
00 - 11th
01 -17th
02 -18th
03 -25th

Judging by those rankings, the Blazers were an established elite defensive rebounding team when Rasheed was still in puberty, and remained so until the Blazers could be argued to be "his" team. When they finish outside of the top 10 for the first time, Rasheed leads the team in MPG. The season before (98-99) they finished 3rd with him as a part time starter and being 4th on the team in MPG.

You could go through the data and see if the blazers and pistons were better with or without rasheed on the floor. But to argue that Sheed should be fighting his own teammates for rebounds to prove he's an elite rebounder is a pretty wild claim.