HomoSapien wrote: dhsilv2 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:He wouldn't rank very high. Incredibly talented player and impactful at that too, but he just didn't have the "it" factor and was a surprisingly soft-rebounder. Off the top of my head all these guy are ahead of him.
It's a shame, because on a good day, he could easily hang with any of these guys. I think he's closer to the Elton Brand, Marion, Randolph tier of PFs.
Wow Brand AND Wallace are FR better than multiple players on the last!
Lets start with Sheed was 84th on the player comp top 100 in 2017, one of the few lists that both requires voting AND analysis with each vote. Brand was 87th and to be honest imo Brand was kinda forgotten and should possibly have been higher.
Guys behind them you listed.
Rodman (85 so between the two), Amare (rightfully not included), Kemp (also rightfully not inclued), Griffin (perhaps in consideration today as that was 2017), Cummings (that was is no offense but imo laughable, sheed's defensive gap was FAR too big), Webber did finish 1 spot ahead of rasheed but frankly looking back, I was likely the one to push that one over and I was wrong.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'll concede Terry Cummings because I never saw him play in his prime, but statistically felt like his prime was stronger than Wallace's despite Wallace being a better defender.
While I can appreciate the argument for Sheed (and again, I absolutely loved him as a player) IMO Amare, Griffin, and Kemp at their best were better than Wallace. Amare in particular was on his way to becoming a franchise player before injuries derailed him. Rasheed was never that kind of building block and his overall playoff numbers are so-so.
Rodman was a better defender and rebounder and is in the hall of fame. Rasheed probably won't make it. That said, if you were starting from scratch, you probably pick Sheed over Rodman.
Rodman is in the hall because he was lucky enough to be on better teams. I love Rodman's game but he wasn't a better basketball player. Those pistons beat the spurs in 7 vs losing and Sheed's likely in the hall as well, even more likely if the blazers don't blow that game 7 to the lakers. Just a few plays here and there and Sheed is a 3 time champ and in the hall and frankly there are 3 dozen players in history who are or aren't in due to just that, a few plays that were mostly luck.
Amare wasn't a building block player. He was best as a complement to Nash. He was also a terrible defender. Just look at RAPM.
2005 - 69th
2006 - 111th
2007 - 95th
2008 - 66th
2009 - 122th
2010 - 132nd
2011 - 164
Every year he's a standout offensive player but every year his defense grades out so bad he doesn't make even the top 50! Now I'd have to argue that perhaps this under values him, but I can't stress enough how bad a defensive player he was.
Kemp wasn't half the defender and even at his peak wasn't a better scorer...he was playing in a faster time and was still putting up similar scoring numbers. Peak VORP 4.8 vs 4.2 and WS of 11.0 vs 11.7. Virtually identical raw stats there minus there being a huge gap defensively. There's also the gap in terms of spacing that shooting big men create which makes the game series for the rest of the team. Now if we're JUST talking peaks, I'd be fine to agree to disagree Kemp vs Wallace as while I think the gap is big, the stats at least don't make it impossible. The problem however is that Kemp's career was just too short. He wasn't himself the best player on his team, that was Payton.
Griffin I honestly haven't though about much. He's still playing and I tend to not take deep dives into players until they retire who aren't at a higher tier in my mind than he is. But I already said he at least has changed enough in the last few years I might have to think a bit more on him.