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Goudelock wrote:I didn't get to see his prime years. But from what I've heard from older fans, Rasheed Wallace was a very good player who would have been a transcendently incredible player if he had the desire to be that. Seriously, I've heard at least a half-dozen people wistfully talk about how Mr. "Ball Don't Lie" should have been just as good as Duncan or Dirk or KG in his prime years.

Which makes me incredibly skeptical when I hear people now say that Wallace/Lamar Odom/Baron Davis would be SUPERSTARS if they played today. They would be held back by the very same thing that held them back in their heyday.

Wallace was a subscriber to work smarter, not harder. Very smart player. Could've worked harder. He was incredible vs the Lakers in 2004.

Really good at man to man defense, particularly against bigger players. One of the best at guarding guys like Shaq, Duncan, Dwight, Gasol etc... Decent at help defense but nothing special.

Bad rebounder for most of his career but he was OK early at Portland.

Kind of a dumb offensive player. Stretch 4/5 but loved jacking 3s at low %. Couldn't create off dribble and shoulda played closer to basket cause his post game was OK but he'd float and chuck. Better than average passer

Tons of unprovoked T's

Definitely was more valuable when he played because his best skillset was 1:1 post defense and that doesn't add too much value these days.

Fringe top-50 power forward ever sounds about right to me. Maybe a bit lower.

HomoSapien wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:He wouldn't rank very high. Incredibly talented player and impactful at that too, but he just didn't have the "it" factor and was a surprisingly soft-rebounder. Off the top of my head all these guy are ahead of him.

Duncan
KG
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Webber
McHale
Rodman
Gasol
Petit
Kemp
McAdoo
Cummings
Amare
Bosh
Hayes
Griffin

It's a shame, because on a good day, he could easily hang with any of these guys. I think he's closer to the Elton Brand, Marion, Randolph tier of PFs.

Wow Brand AND Wallace are FR better than multiple players on the last!

Lets start with Sheed was 84th on the player comp top 100 in 2017, one of the few lists that both requires voting AND analysis with each vote. Brand was 87th and to be honest imo Brand was kinda forgotten and should possibly have been higher.

Guys behind them you listed.

Rodman (85 so between the two), Amare (rightfully not included), Kemp (also rightfully not inclued), Griffin (perhaps in consideration today as that was 2017), Cummings (that was is no offense but imo laughable, sheed's defensive gap was FAR too big), Webber did finish 1 spot ahead of rasheed but frankly looking back, I was likely the one to push that one over and I was wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'll concede Terry Cummings because I never saw him play in his prime, but statistically felt like his prime was stronger than Wallace's despite Wallace being a better defender.

While I can appreciate the argument for Sheed (and again, I absolutely loved him as a player) IMO Amare, Griffin, and Kemp at their best were better than Wallace. Amare in particular was on his way to becoming a franchise player before injuries derailed him. Rasheed was never that kind of building block and his overall playoff numbers are so-so.

Rodman was a better defender and rebounder and is in the hall of fame. Rasheed probably won't make it. That said, if you were starting from scratch, you probably pick Sheed over Rodman.

Rodman is in the hall because he was lucky enough to be on better teams. I love Rodman's game but he wasn't a better basketball player. Those pistons beat the spurs in 7 vs losing and Sheed's likely in the hall as well, even more likely if the blazers don't blow that game 7 to the lakers. Just a few plays here and there and Sheed is a 3 time champ and in the hall and frankly there are 3 dozen players in history who are or aren't in due to just that, a few plays that were mostly luck.

Amare wasn't a building block player. He was best as a complement to Nash. He was also a terrible defender. Just look at RAPM.
2005 - 69th
2006 - 111th
2007 - 95th
2008 - 66th
2009 - 122th
2010 - 132nd
2011 - 164

Every year he's a standout offensive player but every year his defense grades out so bad he doesn't make even the top 50! Now I'd have to argue that perhaps this under values him, but I can't stress enough how bad a defensive player he was.

Kemp wasn't half the defender and even at his peak wasn't a better scorer...he was playing in a faster time and was still putting up similar scoring numbers. Peak VORP 4.8 vs 4.2 and WS of 11.0 vs 11.7. Virtually identical raw stats there minus there being a huge gap defensively. There's also the gap in terms of spacing that shooting big men create which makes the game series for the rest of the team. Now if we're JUST talking peaks, I'd be fine to agree to disagree Kemp vs Wallace as while I think the gap is big, the stats at least don't make it impossible. The problem however is that Kemp's career was just too short. He wasn't himself the best player on his team, that was Payton.

Griffin I honestly haven't though about much. He's still playing and I tend to not take deep dives into players until they retire who aren't at a higher tier in my mind than he is. But I already said he at least has changed enough in the last few years I might have to think a bit more on him.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Spice Melange wrote:I dont think Sheed ranks very high. Sheed was like a poor mans KG with the mentality of DeMarcus Cousins and the overall impact of ZBo.

I can't think of a worse comp to Sheed than KG. Beyond both had good mid range jumpers they were nothing alike. Sheed was a better rim protector, a lot better. Meanwhile KG was faster, more mobile and far better at guarding in space. Offensively Sheed was better in the post, slower, less a ball handler, and honestly a bit weak as a passer. KG was better in the face up game, a great big man ball handler, and god level as a passer.

Eh, im referencing their two way game as big men. I cant think of too many above average defenders while having above average scoring capabilities, hence the "poor mans KG"

Also i would hesitate to call KG a "god level" passer, better than Sheed, sure.

Spice Melange wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Spice Melange wrote:I dont think Sheed ranks very high. Sheed was like a poor mans KG with the mentality of DeMarcus Cousins and the overall impact of ZBo.

I can't think of a worse comp to Sheed than KG. Beyond both had good mid range jumpers they were nothing alike. Sheed was a better rim protector, a lot better. Meanwhile KG was faster, more mobile and far better at guarding in space. Offensively Sheed was better in the post, slower, less a ball handler, and honestly a bit weak as a passer. KG was better in the face up game, a great big man ball handler, and god level as a passer.

Eh, im referencing their two way game as big men. I cant think of too many above average defenders while having above average scoring capabilities, hence the "poor mans KG"

Also i would hesitate to call KG a "god level" passer, better than Sheed, sure.

Other than Walton and MAYBE Sabonis KG is the best passing big man in NBA history.

edit - Jokic is too young but yeah he's going to pass KG.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Spice Melange wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
I can't think of a worse comp to Sheed than KG. Beyond both had good mid range jumpers they were nothing alike. Sheed was a better rim protector, a lot better. Meanwhile KG was faster, more mobile and far better at guarding in space. Offensively Sheed was better in the post, slower, less a ball handler, and honestly a bit weak as a passer. KG was better in the face up game, a great big man ball handler, and god level as a passer.

Eh, im referencing their two way game as big men. I cant think of too many above average defenders while having above average scoring capabilities, hence the "poor mans KG"

Also i would hesitate to call KG a "god level" passer, better than Sheed, sure.

Other than Walton and MAYBE Sabonis KG is the best passing big man in NBA history.

edit - Jokic is too young but yeah he's going to pass KG.

Those two you mentioned, The Gasol Brothers, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Lamar Odom, Ben Simmons (I know hes considered a PG, but still a big man to me), Blake Griffin, Boris Diaw, Draymond Green are some others i can think of at the moment just as good if not better than KG in terms of passing.

Spice Melange wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Spice Melange wrote:
Eh, im referencing their two way game as big men. I cant think of too many above average defenders while having above average scoring capabilities, hence the "poor mans KG"

Also i would hesitate to call KG a "god level" passer, better than Sheed, sure.

Other than Walton and MAYBE Sabonis KG is the best passing big man in NBA history.

edit - Jokic is too young but yeah he's going to pass KG.

Those two you mentioned, The Gasol Brothers, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Lamar Odom, Ben Simmons (I know hes considered a PG, but still a big man to me), Blake Griffin, Boris Diaw are some others i can think of at the moment just as good if not better than KG in terms of passing.

Simmons maybe. The rest just aren't. You're massively underrating KG. KG was good enough to run the point in the western conference finals when Cassell got hurt and guard Shaq on defense. Though I suppose I should call him more a god level playmaker to avoid the diaw types where it's harder to judge given diaw didn't exactly create off the dribble or draw doubles in the post. He's the one guy here I'm not 100% sure on.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Spice Melange wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
Other than Walton and MAYBE Sabonis KG is the best passing big man in NBA history.

edit - Jokic is too young but yeah he's going to pass KG.

Those two you mentioned, The Gasol Brothers, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Lamar Odom, Ben Simmons (I know hes considered a PG, but still a big man to me), Blake Griffin, Boris Diaw are some others i can think of at the moment just as good if not better than KG in terms of passing.

Simmons maybe. The rest just aren't. You're massively underrating KG. KG was good enough to run the point in the western conference finals when Cassell got hurt and guard Shaq on defense. Though I suppose I should call him more a god level playmaker to avoid the diaw types where it's harder to judge given diaw didn't exactly create off the dribble or draw doubles in the post. He's the one guy here I'm not 100% sure on.

We'll just agree to disagree haha because I dont think i would change my stance on those players i mentioned. KG is elite for sure though.

I feel like people are attacking Sheed's character way too much. He helped keep guys like Melo and JR in line during that 2012-2013 season. Also, he has a ring, and a pretty meaningful one that did not require bandwagoning. Not a star, but damn, he was good.

top40

he's better than top50

HomoSapien wrote:He wouldn't rank very high. Incredibly talented player and impactful at that too, but he just didn't have the "it" factor and was a surprisingly soft-rebounder. Off the top of my head all these guy are ahead of him.

Duncan
KG
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Webber
McHale
Rodman
Gasol
Petit
Kemp
McAdoo
Cummings
Amare
Bosh
Hayes
Griffin

It's a shame, because on a good day, he could easily hang with any of these guys. I think he's closer to the Elton Brand, Marion, Randolph tier of PFs.

maurice lucas
chet walker
dave debusschere

Spice Melange wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Spice Melange wrote:

Those two you mentioned, The Gasol Brothers, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Lamar Odom, Ben Simmons (I know hes considered a PG, but still a big man to me), Blake Griffin, Boris Diaw are some others i can think of at the moment just as good if not better than KG in terms of passing.

Simmons maybe. The rest just aren't. You're massively underrating KG. KG was good enough to run the point in the western conference finals when Cassell got hurt and guard Shaq on defense. Though I suppose I should call him more a god level playmaker to avoid the diaw types where it's harder to judge given diaw didn't exactly create off the dribble or draw doubles in the post. He's the one guy here I'm not 100% sure on.

We'll just agree to disagree haha because I dont think i would change my stance on those players i mentioned. KG is elite for sure though.

I mean Vlade is a great passer out of the post but you can't run a team through his passing. Webber...hell no. Odom...come on! KG literally ran the offense.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/19/backpicks-goat-8-kevin-garnett/

I'll leave you with this from one of the only people I've ever see who actually watched 10k plus hours of nba film and actually charted out every pass, play etc to quantify these types of questions. he rates KG as the best passing big man of all time. I'm less ready to go there but as good as most of those guys were (Odom? and you leave off Dray?), they weren't at KG's level.

KnicksGadfly wrote:I feel like people are attacking Sheed's character way too much. He helped keep guys like Melo and JR in line during that 2012-2013 season. Also, he has a ring, and a pretty meaningful one that did not require bandwagoning. Not a star, but damn, he was good.

He's getting attacked because had he wanted to be, he could have been a top 20 all time player. There are maybe 250 guys ever who you could say that about. Most people who are crazy good at something and make a career out of it work hard. The fact he got to the point where he could do all that with the money to do it...he just left a lot short.

Unfortunately for him he did a long stint in Portland before finally making it to a relevant market. The dude was a pioneer of changing the expectations of the power forward position. Honestly he could have been in the discussion had he refused the trade to Portland and ended up somewhere else.

I feel like more people overrate Sheed if anything because of his personality + being a 90s player who could hit 3s, probably between 30-50.

Below Zach Randolph so pretty far down

A guy that talented never averaged 20 a game in a single season.

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He doesn't.

When I mentioned how overrated Horace Grant is around here, I forgot to some degree Sheed. Very good player. Never a truly great one.

His big PEAK season he was 19 and 8. He actually only hit that 8 twice in his career as a "power forward". He never did average 20 in any season. His career averages are 14.4pts and 6.7reb. Al Horford's are 14.0pts 8.3reb. I think Sheed was a little better than Horford -- he had an air about him of being a little like Vlade Divac -- kind of an underachiever who could kick it up a notch when called upon. But at no point a franchise level player or guy who could be the main man you relied upon to carry you. Did his best work on teams with packs of equals, where he could have a good night and be the man one day, and have a 10 and 4 night the next while somebody else took over. On a great team, he's you're #3. Kind of like Miami Bosh, with the difference that Bosh had shown he could carry much more load when he was off by himself.

Deserves mention alongside guys like Horford, Divac, Miami Bosh (but overall Bosh ahead), possibly Kemp, although Kemp was better, just lost value post-fat. He got a couple of those Leastern Conference "All Stars" late in his career because of the team/Conference he played for, but basically a 2x All Star, never sniffed an All NBA spot, and a good #3 type player. If he were a guard he might be Mike Conley.

Clearly behind any of the guys you could hitch a team up to.

Should be ahead of any of the pure roleplayers except Rodman because of his ability to be used like a primary weapon for stretches.

dhsilv2 wrote: Sheed was rocking a legit beer belly by the end of his career. Sheed wasn't stronger because sheed didn't care.

He might've extended his carer by taking better care of his body but he wasn't super strong because he didn't have a super strong frame. My comparison was to Webber, who was just a bigger dude than Sheed in his upper body. Sheed with bigger muscles doesn't become Shaq--he just becomes himself with a little more strength, which means he's still not going to bully good defenders in the paint or shove people aside for boards. For the same reason that anyone who's his size/frame isn't.

dhsilv2 wrote: Sheed likely is never a great ball handler, but that didn't really stop Dirk.

Dirk is the greatest midrange shooter of his generation (if not ever) who had a crazy knack for shooting off-balanced and in weird angles. No logic in thinking that Sheed could've gotten there with a little more practice. Most NBA players have been working insanely hard everyday from the time they're like 9 years old on, and only one of them became Dirk. And Sheed clearly practiced shooting plenty, and had a great smooth stroke that got him most of his NBA points. Unless you honestly think that every stretch 4 with solid form could become Dirk if they put in more gym time, I think it's much safer to conclude that Sheed was a good not great NBA shooter who made good use of his jumper but didn't have the extremely rare ability to ride a jumper (without a driving game) to superstardom.

Players like Sheed aren't flashy but they did the things to win. You could name a bunch of players that put up more stats but weren't as good.

People could say players like Griffin, Brand, and Love are better, but i don't see it.

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