Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position?

Moderators: Domejandro, jamaalstar21, zimpy27, BombsquadSammy, GeorgeMarcus, Goudelock, Prez, bwgood77, ken6199, Dirk

User avatar
Duffman100
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 23,250
And1: 26,746
Joined: Jun 27, 2002
   

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#81 » by Duffman100 » Sat May 23, 2020 2:22 pm

Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.
Balllin
Junior
Posts: 351
And1: 612
Joined: Feb 13, 2016

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#82 » by Balllin » Sat May 23, 2020 2:51 pm

Sheed is kinda like 90s rap. Overrated due to nostalgia.
RSP83
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 1,537
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
       

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#83 » by RSP83 » Sat May 23, 2020 3:20 pm

Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10, but he doesn't care about individual numbers. It's hard to rank him. He doesn't make headlines like Webber, KG, Dirk, Duncan, Amar'e....but if you watch him matchup against those guys he more than hold his own.

I heard comparison to Derrick Coleman, but IMO DC underachieve. Rasheed didn't underachieve, Rasheed was a heck of a player, even when he's just a 3rd option in Detroit behind Billups and Hamilton, opponents can't sleep on him.
DAWill1128
Analyst
Posts: 3,183
And1: 834
Joined: Jun 17, 2004
   

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#84 » by DAWill1128 » Sat May 23, 2020 4:00 pm

Well what's interesting about Rasheed was Portland chose to build around him next to Sabonis with proven vets while young Jermaine O'Neal rode the bench.

O'Neal eventually got traded to Indiana for Dale Davis where he blossomed and became a 6x all-star, at his peak I would say a better player than Rasheed.

But imagine the Blazers never made that deal and played O'Neal at center next to Rasheed, that would have been a good team rather than the slow decline they endured with aging vets.

The Blazers eventually dealt Rasheed during the teams decline and gave Zach Randolph more minutes.

But Rasheed, Jermaine, and Randolph as the 6th man would have been brutal for teams to play against inside.

I will say this the Blazers ability to find young power forwards in Rasheed, Jermaine, Zach, and Lamarcus is impressive scouting at that time.
pad300
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,527
And1: 252
Joined: Feb 16, 2005

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#85 » by pad300 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:04 pm

As an all time great, he's a "coulda been but never was". $100 of talent and physical ability; $0.10 head...
Roscoe Sheed
General Manager
Posts: 7,894
And1: 1,800
Joined: May 01, 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#86 » by Roscoe Sheed » Sat May 23, 2020 6:10 pm

He wasn’t as good as he could have been- that’s for sure, but he played a huge role on a championship team that were true contenders for years. It’s not like he was a total bum.

In some ways Sheed was unselfish to the point of being selfish- in that he was supremely talented that he could have been much more dominant and therefore by being too passive he hurt his team. His post up skills were tremendous, but he took too many 3s and therefore let the defense off the hook
Roscoe Sheed
General Manager
Posts: 7,894
And1: 1,800
Joined: May 01, 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#87 » by Roscoe Sheed » Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 pm

Also, while it’s true that Sheed didn’t stay in shape like he should have, it is wrong to say he didn’t love the game.

Almost everybody that coached or played with him says he was one of the smartest players they ever knew- I remember flip Saunders said that Sheed knew where each player was supposed to go on every play-not just his position.

In fact, Sheed loves basketball so much that he is currently a head high school coach in NC
User avatar
bisme37
Veteran
Posts: 2,781
And1: 6,682
Joined: May 24, 2014
 

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#88 » by bisme37 » Sat May 23, 2020 7:16 pm

I'm generally terrible at player rankings because it always seems like apples and oranges to me. But man, I love me some Sheed. One of my all-time personal favorites for sure.
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 8,497
And1: 4,287
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#89 » by HotelVitale » Sat May 23, 2020 7:24 pm

dhsilv2 wrote: I don't think any good stretch 4 could become dirk because most of them really have practiced that hard. I don't think sheed did. I honestly don't think he really liked basketball all that much. Everything just came to him THAT easily. And no while he wouldn't be Dirk, he was more athletic, more explosive, and should have been a better post player. He just also could have had a mid range jumper close enough to dirk's. Remember this is a guy who was better at mid range shooting from 22-25 years old. Guys don't have these kinds of early career peaks like he did, unless...they just didn't keep trying.
I dunno, just looks you're trying to simplify the story by framing the whole thing around an assumption that at the very least has a questionable foundation, or is more complicated. Every NBA player shoots hundreds of shots every day, and I spent a lot time around NCAA D1 athletes who had a wide range of personality types--and all of them, even the knuckleheads, still worked every single day for hours at their game. And I worked with some serious knuckleheads. (Google Marques Slocum, e.g.). Rasheed was never 'not working hard' or focusing intensely on his game, and I don't think that putting in a little more time like the turbo-freaks would have given him the chance to overcome some of the physical limitations he had. I agree obviously that having an ultra-competitive attitude helps, but I think we vastly overrate its importance because it fits with a story that we all like about meritocracy (and resonates with the everyday truth that strong will is important for getting ahead).

I also agree that he wasn't committed to maximizing everything he could, and I can obviously see that he had some sort of immaturity/adhd/trauma thing that made him make odd decisions sometimes and have strange outbursts a lot of the time. (I now work with people in PA state prisons, and his shiftiness, random outbursts followed by missing important things, constant distraction is pretty common among folks who grew up in North Philly, looks a lot like trauma response things.) I think that's a factor here, but Sheed was always very competitive and overall I really don't think that it's as simple as 'he had a strange attitude' = 'his attitude is why he wasn't a megastar.' Stars have to have something they can always do at great volume or an answer to everything the defense throws at them, Sheed just didn't have that. Dirk for example is still 96% of Dirk if he doesn't have that--and while that 5% matters a lot, and the gap between Sheed and Dirk is definitely bigger than that 4%.
User avatar
Ito
General Manager
Posts: 8,216
And1: 249
Joined: Apr 13, 2002
Location: UPTOWN, NY

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#90 » by Ito » Sat May 23, 2020 7:38 pm

Probably top 25 or 30 :dontknow: had the skill set but wasn’t even consistent and I don’t recall him averaging big numbers any season. He’s better than Aldridge tho
Image
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 8,497
And1: 4,287
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#91 » by HotelVitale » Sat May 23, 2020 7:42 pm

RSP83 wrote:Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10


Agree with him not wanting to be face of franchise, but he actually never gave anyone 20-10. Didn't even come particularly close. Even in the seasons where he was in his prime and played almost 40 minutes a game, he topped out at less than 19/8, and never once average either 20ppg or 10rpg. (His career high rpg is 8.2). He was a less productive player than most if not all of us remember.
Roscoe Sheed
General Manager
Posts: 7,894
And1: 1,800
Joined: May 01, 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#92 » by Roscoe Sheed » Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
RSP83 wrote:Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10


Agree with him not wanting to be face of franchise, but he actually never gave anyone 20-10. Didn't even come particularly close. Even in the seasons where he was in his prime and played almost 40 minutes a game, he topped out at less than 19/8, and never once average either 20ppg or 10rpg. (His career high rpg is 8.2). He was a less productive player than most if not all of us remember.

True- he never put up the numbers he should or could have. However, if you had a 7 game series vs tim Duncan he would probably be the player you’d want guarding him- much more than many guys on the list at the beginning of this thread. He and Ben Wallace really made Timmy work more than anybody ever did.

Sheed’s value went beyond stats
RSP83
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 1,537
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
       

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#93 » by RSP83 » Sat May 23, 2020 9:41 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
RSP83 wrote:Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10


Agree with him not wanting to be face of franchise, but he actually never gave anyone 20-10. Didn't even come particularly close. Even in the seasons where he was in his prime and played almost 40 minutes a game, he topped out at less than 19/8, and never once average either 20ppg or 10rpg. (His career high rpg is 8.2). He was a less productive player than most if not all of us remember.


I said he CAN. He has the talent and the tools. But he didn't care enough.
RSP83
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 1,537
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
       

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#94 » by RSP83 » Sat May 23, 2020 9:59 pm

DAWill1128 wrote:Well what's interesting about Rasheed was Portland chose to build around him next to Sabonis with proven vets while young Jermaine O'Neal rode the bench.

O'Neal eventually got traded to Indiana for Dale Davis where he blossomed and became a 6x all-star, at his peak I would say a better player than Rasheed.

But imagine the Blazers never made that deal and played O'Neal at center next to Rasheed, that would have been a good team rather than the slow decline they endured with aging vets.

The Blazers eventually dealt Rasheed during the teams decline and gave Zach Randolph more minutes.

But Rasheed, Jermaine, and Randolph as the 6th man would have been brutal for teams to play against inside.

I will say this the Blazers ability to find young power forwards in Rasheed, Jermaine, Zach, and Lamarcus is impressive scouting at that time.


Yes, that was an interesting situation in Portland with Sheed, JO, and Z-Bo. Glad that all pan out eventually.

JO might seem to be the best player out of the 4 you mentioned, but I'd still take Sheed's versatility. And Rasheed still by far the most talented out of the 4. JO was a bit too one dimensional for me, and too injury prone. He had a chance to do something special with his Pacers though, that year when Malice at the Palace happened, that's supposed to be their year in the East.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 21,023
And1: 8,837
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#95 » by dhsilv2 » Sun May 24, 2020 4:02 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote: I don't think any good stretch 4 could become dirk because most of them really have practiced that hard. I don't think sheed did. I honestly don't think he really liked basketball all that much. Everything just came to him THAT easily. And no while he wouldn't be Dirk, he was more athletic, more explosive, and should have been a better post player. He just also could have had a mid range jumper close enough to dirk's. Remember this is a guy who was better at mid range shooting from 22-25 years old. Guys don't have these kinds of early career peaks like he did, unless...they just didn't keep trying.
I dunno, just looks you're trying to simplify the story by framing the whole thing around an assumption that at the very least has a questionable foundation, or is more complicated. Every NBA player shoots hundreds of shots every day, and I spent a lot time around NCAA D1 athletes who had a wide range of personality types--and all of them, even the knuckleheads, still worked every single day for hours at their game. And I worked with some serious knuckleheads. (Google Marques Slocum, e.g.). Rasheed was never 'not working hard' or focusing intensely on his game, and I don't think that putting in a little more time like the turbo-freaks would have given him the chance to overcome some of the physical limitations he had. I agree obviously that having an ultra-competitive attitude helps, but I think we vastly overrate its importance because it fits with a story that we all like about meritocracy (and resonates with the everyday truth that strong will is important for getting ahead).

I also agree that he wasn't committed to maximizing everything he could, and I can obviously see that he had some sort of immaturity/adhd/trauma thing that made him make odd decisions sometimes and have strange outbursts a lot of the time. (I now work with people in PA state prisons, and his shiftiness, random outbursts followed by missing important things, constant distraction is pretty common among folks who grew up in North Philly, looks a lot like trauma response things.) I think that's a factor here, but Sheed was always very competitive and overall I really don't think that it's as simple as 'he had a strange attitude' = 'his attitude is why he wasn't a megastar.' Stars have to have something they can always do at great volume or an answer to everything the defense throws at them, Sheed just didn't have that. Dirk for example is still 96% of Dirk if he doesn't have that--and while that 5% matters a lot, and the gap between Sheed and Dirk is definitely bigger than that 4%.


99% of players, I'd agree with you. Sheed is a unicorn man.

That said why did dirk suck as a rookie?

The thing is both these guys I'm sure could hit 100 mid range jumpers in a row in a gym by themselves. It's what they did in the nba to adapt to nba defenses and the speed and athletics of players in the league that can take a guy from a gym god to an nba one. Sheed was a better player in most shooting metrics at the start of his career, not at his apex when he was actually at his best in terms of defense and impact. That speaks volumes to his lack of work at the nba level on his shooting game and it's really no surprise.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 21,023
And1: 8,837
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#96 » by dhsilv2 » Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm

Duffman100 wrote:Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.


Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.
kdot99
Veteran
Posts: 2,818
And1: 195
Joined: Jul 03, 2006
 

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#98 » by kdot99 » Sun May 24, 2020 4:45 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.


Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.


Bosh was definitely better than Sheed, quite easily I would say. Impact, numbers, personal accolades, championships, he beats Sheed in all categories. He even made 2nd team All-NBA in his 4th season and led his team to a division title (yes the division was weak). Sheed was never capable of doing anything like that in his career -- or if he did, he didn't come close to showing it. Bosh was particularly a plus defender once he joined Miami. Sheed had a great defensive run once he joined Detroit (an already established elite defensive team) but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 21,023
And1: 8,837
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#99 » by dhsilv2 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:48 pm

kdot99 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.


Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.


Bosh was definitely better than Sheed, quite easily I would say. Impact, numbers, personal accolades, championships, he beats Sheed in all categories. He even made 2nd team All-NBA in his 4th season and led his team to a division title (yes the division was weak). Sheed was never capable of doing anything like that in his career -- or if he did, he didn't come close to showing it. Bosh was particularly a plus defender once he joined Miami. Sheed had a great defensive run once he joined Detroit (an already established elite defensive team) but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.


in the RAPM data we have bosh peaked 9th which doesn't put him above sheed who peaked 4th and has multiple finishes above 9th.

No sheed was not an elite defender when he went to the pistons but was already a well established elite defender long before that. He wasn't a plus defender, he was a DPOY level defender who likely was never good enough to be the DPOY but had an impact that historically would rank ahead of a large number of former DPOY's. Bosh at his peak was a plus defender actually pretty good though his defense and offensive impact never seemed to peak at the same time.

Career VORP 31.1 vs 38.4 or WS of 106.0 vs 105.1. You can't really argue non impact stats said Bosh was better either.

Now I agree imo Bosh was better, but the gap is razor thin. Anyone claiming impact and stats alone make a clear distinction is just wrong.
VanWest82
General Manager
Posts: 9,164
And1: 9,696
Joined: Dec 05, 2008

Re: Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position? 

Post#100 » by VanWest82 » Sun May 24, 2020 6:18 pm

Sheed was one of many in the golden age of the PF. TD, Dirk, KG, Malone, Webber, Bosh, Brand, JO, Amare, Marion, ZBo, LMA, Sheed. There are a lot of them. I'm sure I probably forgot someone.

Return to The General Board