RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards

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RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#1 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 7:58 pm

To tide us over during this current insanity, instead of having yet another one of the same old threads about your top 5, 10 or 20 positional all-time lists, let's go on a deep dive that actually gets people looking up and learning about players from years' past.

With 5 weeks until the season, I am asking you RealGMs out there to come up with your ranked top 35 at each position!

Starting this week with Point Guards, I will tally everyone's lists using a point scale (1st place = 35 points/35th place = 1 point) and aggregate them to see what the official RealGM consensus opinion is for the best 35 Point Guards of All-Time!


Here's a top 35 to get everyone started:

1. Russell Westbrook
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bob Cousy
4. Chris Paul
5. Isiah Thomas

6. Gary Payton
7. Jason Kidd
8. Stephen Curry
9. John Stockton
10. Lenny Wilkens

11. Walt Frazier
12. Deron Williams
13. Steve Nash
14. Stephon Marbury
15. Guy Rodgers

16. Tim Hardaway
17. Damian Lillard
18. Gail Gooderich
19. Tiny Archibald
20. Baron Davis

21. Rod Strickland
22. Jo Jo White
23. John Wall
24. Dick McGuire
25. Fred Scolari

26. Norm Nixon
27. Kevin Johnson
28. Sam Cassell
29. Kemba Walker
30. Louie Dampier

31. Larry Costello
32. Rajon Rondo
33. Slater Martin
34. Calvin Murphy
35. Tony Parker

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Please make extensive use of the best basketball site on the internet, http://www.basketball-reference.com, and their plethora of pages and tools to make some great lists, and to support your side in well argued debates and discussions.

If you have any questions on how to use the tools on basketball-reference feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them. As well, if you know of any good resources that you think I should add, link them and I will consider it.

(Note: Determinations on the official position of players for the purposes of these lists will be by majority of seasons played at a given position as listed by basketball-reference)

Here are some of the best basketball-reference resources:

Leaders and Records Pages - https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

Awards and Honours Index - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/

Player Season Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi

Player Comparison Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi

Other resources:

NBA 25th Anniversary Team (1971) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_25th_Anniversary_Team

NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

ESPN's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2016) https://www.interbasket.net/news/the-full-list-of-espns-100-nbas-greatest-players-of-all-time-nbarank/19115/

SLAM's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2018) - https://www.interbasket.net/news/slam-top-100-nba-players-all-time-full-list/23623/

SLAM's 500 Greatest Players of All-Time (2011) - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

Ainsworth Sports' Top 1000 Players of All-Time (A very interesting and objective ranking that focuses on players' 7-year peak) - http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

Ranking template:

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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#2 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 22, 2020 8:02 pm

I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#3 » by prophet_of_rage » Fri May 22, 2020 8:12 pm

Everybody give 10 and sort it out from there.

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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#4 » by InsideInfo » Fri May 22, 2020 8:14 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!


At this point I cant see anything that would have me ranking Nash ahead of Curry... especially but that much of a margin.

Curry has matched him on the 2 MVPs already and has rings that Nash never won. Also there is something to be said about how Nash on the suns was sort of the start of the teams who were fast past/offensively orientated with "no defense" and the suns never made it to the Finals... and that Curry and GS was the first team to win it all really playing that style of basketball.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#5 » by Lalouie » Fri May 22, 2020 8:14 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!


nice rank. west is more of a pg than curry
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#6 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 22, 2020 8:24 pm

InsideInfo wrote:
At this point I cant see anything that would have me ranking Nash ahead of Curry... especially but that much of a margin.



Usually I get the how can you have Kidd ahead of Nash complaints so this is good. And yeah there are definitely arguments for Curry to be higher and I'm open to them.

Regarding Nash--it starts with him running the best offense in the league for a decade and while in Dallas he wasn't the clear engine of that--Dirk a huge factor, he was a big part of it those years as well. And of course in Phoenix he was absolutely the driving force.

He wasn't good defensively, but its hard for me to blame him completely considering he played for two organizations that at the time chose to go all-in on offensive talent, coaching, and scheme. Put Chris Paul or Stockton or Kidd or Payton or any of the really good star guards who could defend and those still weren't going to be strong defensive teams---maybe with Kidd since he could defend wings and dominate the glass.

And while defense matters to me even for point guards it's not nearly as vital as offense. Add to that he played on at least 3 championship level teams---03 where Dirk's injury costs them against the Spurs in the WCF but they'd have been clear favorites over the Nets. 2006 where they made the WCF and gave Dallas a series without Amare--with him they might have been champs and of course 07 where the Horry hip check and poor suspension decisions by the league cost them a chance. Heck even in 2010 with far less talent they made another deep run.

I don't think Steve Nash at your point guard prevents you from winning.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#7 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 8:25 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!


Even if people just rank their favourites, I'm hoping we can get a good amount of people to give full 35 person rankings. My whole goal is to get people looking up old players and that only happens if you get passed 20-25, and get some discussions going that aren't just about the same 10-15 players like always.

I'm really hoping some that some of the mods and especially people on here who have been fans since the 80s, 70s, 60s, etc. will give detailed lists, because they really add a lot of great understanding to everyone's knowledge of players and basketball history.

Plus, it may seem like a lot of time or effort, but lord knows lots of people spend hours on here a day, and it's not like we don't have plenty of time on our hands right now, lol.

I'll be giving my list later today to get people started.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#8 » by rtiff68 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:26 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!


When I first looked at #10, I thought: "he must really, REALLY value longevity...

...and then I saw that Magic was #1 and Frazier was #7. Now I'm just really, REALLY confused.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#9 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 8:28 pm

rtiff68 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!


When I first looked at #10, I thought: "he must really, REALLY value longevity...

...and then I saw that Magic was #1 and Frazier was #7. Now I'm just really, REALLY confused.


Don't just question other people's opinions, add your own!
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#10 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 22, 2020 8:29 pm

rtiff68 wrote:
When I first looked at #10, I thought: "he must really, REALLY value longevity...

...and then I saw that Magic was #1 and Frazier was #7. Now I'm just really, REALLY confused.


:D

I do value longevity, but I take all factors into consideration. I don't think its inconsistent to value some guys highly with high peaks and some guys highly with lessor peaks but very long primes. I shouldn't have to take either all the high peak guys at the top or all the high longevity guys at the top. In fact I think doing so would clearly be wrong, not inconsistent.

Again, I'm always open to debate about where I place guys and its clear I'm lower on Steph than some of you, but I feel okay with my methodology.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#11 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 8:34 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:Everybody give 10 and sort it out from there.

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That would at best get a top 15-20. Give me some detail, throw out a personal favourite, check out one player you've never really learned about.

I want to see your John Walls, your Jo Jo Whites, your Kevin Johnsons, your Norm Nixons, your Sam Cassells, your Fat Levers, your Mo Cheeks, your Chauncey Billups, your Mark Prices!

So many players that we know were good but never really say, well how really good were they? And what makes one better than the other? Maybe someone you always thought deserves more shine, or to point out someone that you feel is overrated.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#12 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 22, 2020 8:52 pm

Metallikid wrote:I want to see your John Walls, your Jo Jo Whites, your Kevin Johnsons, your Norm Nixons, your Sam Cassells, your Fat Levers, your Mo Cheeks, your Chauncey Billups, your Mark Prices!



I hear you. We need more Terry Porter, Dennis Johnson, Derek Harper, Mookie Blaylock, Sleepy Floyd, Penny Hardaway, Sam Jones etc talk. I just don't feel qualified to rank them in a meaningful way. But I absolutely love trying to get some discussion about them instead of another Lebron/Mike/Kobe/Jayson Tatum thread for sure.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#13 » by InsideInfo » Fri May 22, 2020 8:56 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
InsideInfo wrote:
At this point I cant see anything that would have me ranking Nash ahead of Curry... especially but that much of a margin.





I don't think Steve Nash at your point guard prevents you from winning.



I don't think any of these guys on the list prevents you from winning... but at the end of the day he didn't win a ring. If I start a franchise and have my choice between Nash and Curry, I think I am picking Curry every time.

For me, when you are putting together all time great lists you have to take into account a mix of personal and team accomplishments. If Jordan went 0-6 in the finals... he isn't the best SG of all time... and the same line of thinking for me says Nash needs to be dropped way out of the top 5 for never making it out of the conference finals.

Side note...I give Stockton a little bit of a pass since he made it to the finals twice and ran into Jordan and the Bulls.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#14 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 9:02 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Metallikid wrote:I want to see your John Walls, your Jo Jo Whites, your Kevin Johnsons, your Norm Nixons, your Sam Cassells, your Fat Levers, your Mo Cheeks, your Chauncey Billups, your Mark Prices!



I hear you. We need more Terry Porter, Dennis Johnson, Derek Harper, Mookie Blaylock, Sleepy Floyd, Penny Hardaway, Sam Jones etc talk. I just don't feel qualified to rank them in a meaningful way. But I absolutely love trying to get some discussion about them instead of another Lebron/Mike/Kobe/Jayson Tatum thread for sure.


It doesn't have to be perfect, that's why I put up an example list that a lot of people would disagree with. I just want to see people put something down, get the brain firing up, and then they can change it later. Maybe think about why they think one player is better than another.

Is it rings? Is it ppg? Is it All-NBA teams and All-Star appearances? Is it Win Shares and advanced stats? Is it clutch performances?
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#15 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 22, 2020 9:07 pm

InsideInfo wrote:I don't think any of these guys on the list prevents you from winning... but at the end of the day he didn't win a ring. If I start a franchise and have my choice between Nash and Curry, I think I am picking Curry every time.

For me, when you are putting together all time great lists you have to take into account a mix of personal and team accomplishments. If Jordan went 0-6 in the finals... he isn't the best SG of all time... and the same line of thinking for me says Nash needs to be dropped way out of the top 5 for never making it out of the conference finals.

Side note...I give Stockton a little bit of a pass since he made it to the finals twice and ran into Jordan and the Bulls.


Oh I value team success as well. My issue is its really hard to win championships and Nash played in a conference where one of Kobe, Duncan, or Dirk was always representing his conference and the Suns lost to the West champ and/or the Spurs every single year and in 03 his only contending level team in Dallas lost to the Spurs when Dirk got hurt.

So context matters. It's like all the players in the East for the past decade where Lebron was looming over everything. Judging them all terrible because Lebron was in the way feels misguided at best since Lebron is arguable the GOAT and at minimum in that conversation. Same with guys whose primes overlapped Russell's or Jordans or was trying to deal with Bird/Magic/Moses.

There was this KG can't win narrative and then he got to move East and all of sudden it was deep run after deep run. That narrative was dead wrong all along.

So I look at Nash's level of play which was really high, his team success which was good, though not great. The bad luck he had with his best teams that was outside of his control and then I look at Curry who was definitely the driving force on the first championship team and the 73 win team that lost. But who then had overwhelming talent and for all his regular season brilliance his game hasn't proven to be as durable against better teams, better coaches, defenses better able to scheme him over a series. And Draymond proved the oppposite--he had great regular season impact as well, but upped his game in the playoffs.

I say none of that to take away from Curry, but rather to say for me its not as simple as this guy won 3x and this guy never did so the winner has to be better. He is definitely better in some ways, but Nash is clearly better in some others. And as of now I would rate his career higher. Steph still has time and if healthy should continue to move up the list.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#16 » by Duke4life831 » Fri May 22, 2020 9:08 pm

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar (just going off rep, never seen an actual game of his)
4. Stockton
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Russ
10. Payton
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#17 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 22, 2020 9:12 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar (just going off rep, never seen an actual game of his)
4. Stockton
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Russ
10. Payton


Thanks! Will ease some of the bullets flying my way when people find something they don't like about yours. Ours line up pretty well except you are much higher on Curry, I'm assuming don't think of West as a PG and like Zeke where I like Clyde.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#18 » by Duke4life831 » Fri May 22, 2020 9:34 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar (just going off rep, never seen an actual game of his)
4. Stockton
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Russ
10. Payton


Thanks! Will ease some of the bullets flying my way when people find something they don't like about yours. Ours line up pretty well except you are much higher on Curry, I'm assuming don't think of West as a PG and like Zeke where I like Clyde.


Clyde, West and Oscar are all in the same category for me, as in I haven't seen complete games from them and just going off reputation. Thought I'd just put one of those guys on my list. Anyone has arguments for those 3 you won't get any push back from me.

Magic was my easy #1, Curry was my easy #2. 4-7 I have those guys pretty damn even. Ask me tomorrow I might have a different order with those guys. Same for 8-10.
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#19 » by wojoaderge » Fri May 22, 2020 9:42 pm

Metallikid wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:Everybody give 10 and sort it out from there.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk


That would at best get a top 15-20. Give me some detail, throw out a personal favourite, check out one player you've never really learned about.

I want to see your John Walls, your Jo Jo Whites, your Kevin Johnsons, your Norm Nixons, your Sam Cassells, your Fat Levers, your Mo Cheeks, your Chauncey Billups, your Mark Prices!

So many players that we know were good but never really say, well how really good were they? And what makes one better than the other? Maybe someone you always thought deserves more shine, or to point out someone that you feel is overrated.

Kevin Porter, four assists crowns
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Re: RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards 

Post#20 » by Metallikid » Fri May 22, 2020 9:55 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:Everybody give 10 and sort it out from there.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk


That would at best get a top 15-20. Give me some detail, throw out a personal favourite, check out one player you've never really learned about.

I want to see your John Walls, your Jo Jo Whites, your Kevin Johnsons, your Norm Nixons, your Sam Cassells, your Fat Levers, your Mo Cheeks, your Chauncey Billups, your Mark Prices!

So many players that we know were good but never really say, well how really good were they? And what makes one better than the other? Maybe someone you always thought deserves more shine, or to point out someone that you feel is overrated.

Kevin Porter, four assists crowns


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