RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards

[dautjazz]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Frazier
9. GP
10. Cousy
11. Nash
12. Russ
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Price
16. Billups
17. Tim Hardaway
18. KJ
19. Bing
20. Deron Williams
21. Cassell
22. Strickland
23. Penny
24. Porter
25. Baron Davis
26. Lowry
27. Gus Williams
28. Bibby
29. Lillard
30. Maravich
31. Wilkens
32. Parker
33. Arenas
34. Dre Miller
35. Cheeks

A couple of things, while Maravich is probably the most creative passer in history, but I'm quite certain he played SG his entire career, though not sure how coaching strategies were then, I'm sure you could of put him in at PG and he would of excelled at the position as well. Also if Maravich were considered a PG, he should be above Bibby, in fact Bibby is simply to high, no way he was better than Maravich, Lillard, Wilkens, Arenas (though his career was short), etc.

The next thing that caught my attention was Mark Price. Did you forget about him, or do you really think guys like Mike Bibby and Andre Miller were better than him?

Miller played a much longer career, I'll give him that with close to 600 more games, but Price was much better in his prime. Price was a 4 x All-Star, made the All-NBA 1st Team in 1993, and made three All-NBA 3rd teams. Price also finished top 10 in MVP shares four years. Miller didn't accomplish any of that, only thing really of note was that he led the league in assist one year. Price for his career actually averaged more assists and points in less minutes, and was a far better shooter.

[dautjazz]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West
4. Thomas
5. Stockton
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Kidd
9. Nash
10. Frazier
11. Cousy
12. Payton
13. Westbrook
14. Parker
15. Lillard/Irving/Rose

Call me crazy, but I would have a really hard time choosing Cousy over Payton, Westbrook, and Lillard. I know he played in a different era, but the .375 FG% is just mindboggling bad, especially given there was no 3pt line.

[Metallikid]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West
4. Thomas
5. Stockton
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Kidd
9. Nash
10. Frazier
11. Cousy
12. Payton
13. Westbrook
14. Parker
15. Lillard/Irving/Rose

Call me crazy, but I would have a really hard time choosing Cousy over Payton, Westbrook, and Lillard. I know he played in a different era, but the .375 FG% is just mindboggling bad, especially given there was no 3pt line.

FG% were really low in the olden days. Lots of people led the league with sub .500 field goal percentages. The paint was always full; people weren't great jump shooters yet and most people didn't jump shoot at all. The fact is he's the first truly superstar guard in NBA history, he's the league's first MVP ever, he was an integral part of the original Celtics dynasty (back in the day some probably would have said he was more important than Bill Russell since he was the team captain even during Russell's tenure), and his numbers aren't that bad. He lead the league in assists for eight straight seasons with a line of 19.6 PTS/5.6 TRB/8.1 AST in an extremely low scoring era. He was only 6'1" and averaged over 5 rebounds and 5 FTM for his career with a PER of almost 20.

Without Bob Cousy passing wouldn't be the art form it is today. Cousy made passing cool.

[Sir-Swish-A-Lot]

That would at best get a top 15-20. Give me some detail, throw out a personal favourite, check out one player you've never really learned about.

I want to see your John Walls, your Jo Jo Whites, your Kevin Johnsons, your Norm Nixons, your Sam Cassells, your Fat Levers, your Mo Cheeks, your Chauncey Billups, your Mark Prices!

So many players that we know were good but never really say, well how really good were they? And what makes one better than the other? Maybe someone you always thought deserves more shine, or to point out someone that you feel is overrated.

Kevin Porter, four assists crowns

I raise you GusWilliams - 2x All Star, 2x All NBA, 1x Champion with Seattle, with a 7 year peak of 20.2 PTS/2.9 TRB/6.2 AST/2.3 STL

The Wizard was extra filthy... very underrated PG by many.

[Sir-Swish-A-Lot]

In any list Payton should be ahead of Stockton (who he owned), Kidd (Payton mentored Kidd) and Nash (Payton mentored Nash).

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Gary Payton
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. John Stockton
9. Nate Archibald
10. Dennis Johnson
11. Walt Frazier

[Metallikid]

Kevin Porter, four assists crowns

I raise you GusWilliams - 2x All Star, 2x All NBA, 1x Champion with Seattle, with a 7 year peak of 20.2 PTS/2.9 TRB/6.2 AST/2.3 STL

The Wizard was extra filthy... very underrated PG by many.

Did you see him play? I can only tell with the old players by stats. He must have been good defensively and was a scoring point guard by my guess. Where would he rank on the Seattle Championship team?

[Sir-Swish-A-Lot]

I raise you GusWilliams - 2x All Star, 2x All NBA, 1x Champion with Seattle, with a 7 year peak of 20.2 PTS/2.9 TRB/6.2 AST/2.3 STL

The Wizard was extra filthy... very underrated PG by many.

Did you see him play? I can only tell with the old players by stats. He must have been good defensively and was a scoring point guard by my guess. Where would he rank on the Seattle Championship team?

Yes. I grew up in Seattle in the 1970s-80s. He was arguably their best player on their championship team. He played both ends of the court. The Wizard was a Wizard at passing, dribbling and shooting. I still remember the Sonics winning the NBA championship and all the cars honking and flashing their high beams while driving up and down Martin Luther King Way. Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson is still my favorite NBA backcourt of all time. SuperSonic Boom!!

[Metallikid]

The Wizard was extra filthy... very underrated PG by many.

Did you see him play? I can only tell with the old players by stats. He must have been good defensively and was a scoring point guard by my guess. Where would he rank on the Seattle Championship team?

Yes. I grew up in Seattle in the 1970s-80s. He was arguably their best player on their championship team. He played both ends of the court. The Wizard was a Wizard at passing, dribbling and shooting. I still remember the Sonics winning the NBA championship and all the cars honking and flashing their high beams while driving up and down Martin Luther King Way. Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson is still my favorite NBA backcourt of all time. SuperSonic Boom!!

Oh cool, see if I had had to guess I would have said Dennis Johnson or Jack Sikma would have been the #1. How come you're a Raptors fan now and not a Thunder fan?

[wojoaderge]

The Wizard was extra filthy... very underrated PG by many.

Did you see him play? I can only tell with the old players by stats. He must have been good defensively and was a scoring point guard by my guess. Where would he rank on the Seattle Championship team?

Yes. I grew up in Seattle in the 1970s-80s. He was arguably their best player on their championship team. He played both ends of the court. The Wizard was a Wizard at passing, dribbling and shooting. I still remember the Sonics winning the NBA championship and all the cars honking and flashing their high beams while driving up and down Martin Luther King Way. Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson is still my favorite NBA backcourt of all time. SuperSonic Boom!!

The 1982-83 were the first team I followed

[Sir-Swish-A-Lot]

Did you see him play? I can only tell with the old players by stats. He must have been good defensively and was a scoring point guard by my guess. Where would he rank on the Seattle Championship team?

Yes. I grew up in Seattle in the 1970s-80s. He was arguably their best player on their championship team. He played both ends of the court. The Wizard was a Wizard at passing, dribbling and shooting. I still remember the Sonics winning the NBA championship and all the cars honking and flashing their high beams while driving up and down Martin Luther King Way. Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson is still my favorite NBA backcourt of all time. SuperSonic Boom!!

Oh cool, see if I had had to guess I would have said Dennis Johnson or Jack Sikma would have been the #1. How come you're a Raptors fan now and not a Thunder fan?

Naw, Gus was the driving force behind that team but they had a lot of complentary players like Dennis Johnson, Lonnie Shelton, Jack Sikma, Johnny Johnson, Freddy Brown, Paul Silas, Wally Walker (who backstabbed Sonics fans and helped Howard Schultz move Seattle to OKC).

I can't support OKC and I'm glad that Durant and Westbrook left that organization as both were drafted by the Sonics. The Thunder were stolen from Seattle word to SonicsGate:

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Because I now live in Vancouver and the Grizzlies moved to Memphis...

[Tim Kempton]

A couple of things, while Maravich is probably the most creative passer in history, but I'm quite certain he played SG his entire career, though not sure how coaching strategies were then, I'm sure you could of put him in at PG and he would of excelled at the position as well. Also if Maravich were considered a PG, he should be above Bibby, in fact Bibby is simply to high, no way he was better than Maravich, Lillard, Wilkens, Arenas (though his career was short), etc.

The next thing that caught my attention was Mark Price. Did you forget about him, or do you really think guys like Mike Bibby and Andre Miller were better than him?

Miller played a much longer career, I'll give him that with close to 600 more games, but Price was much better in his prime. Price was a 4 x All-Star, made the All-NBA 1st Team in 1993, and made three All-NBA 3rd teams. Price also finished top 10 in MVP shares four years. Miller didn't accomplish any of that, only thing really of note was that he led the league in assist one year. Price for his career actually averaged more assists and points in less minutes, and was a far better shooter.

You're right about Maravich, but I've always considered him a PG the same way I've always considered Penny a PG. They were both the main playmakers on their team and did the majority of the ball handling, even though they played alongside "true" PGs. If you look at Penny's prime, he was labeled a PG despite playing with Scott Skiles and Brian Shaw.

I understand your sentiment regarding Bibby, but his playoff performances were outstanding. Playing on a team with the likes of Webber, Divac, and Stojakovic and still being considered the best clutch performer by a country mile counts for a lot.

I love Mark Price. I think you may have missed him, but he is #15 on my list. I even discussed him earlier in the thread and made note of how much better he'd be today.

[iggymcfrack]

Fun challenge, I'll see what I can do.

1. Chris Paul
2. Magic Johnson
.
.
.
35. Patrick Beverley (his traditional stats are so poor and his advanced stats so good that I just felt like he was the perfect person to occupy the last position on my chart)

I'm pretty sure you forgot Jason Kidd

Oops, nice catch. He would have been #8 if I was paying attention. I thought something seemed off at the bottom of my top 10.

[Paddy Brosso]

Here´s my attempt:
1) Magic Johnson 2) Stephen Curry 3) Oscar Robertson 4) John Stockton 5) Steve Nash
6) Allen Iverson 7) Chris Paul 8) Jason Kidd 9) Gary Payton 10) Bob Cousy
11) Isiah Thomas 12) Walt Frazier 13) Tiny Archibald 14) Tim Hardaway 15) Damian Lillard
16) Chauncey Billups 17) Tony Parker 18) Mark Price 19) Dennis Johnson 20) Rajon Rondo
21) Penny Hardaway 22) Derrick Rose 23) Dave Bing 24) Kevin Johnson 25) Rod Strickland
26) Gilbert Arenas 27) Deron Williams 28) Kyrie Irving 29) Baron Davis 30) Stephon Marbury
31) Mark Jackson 32) Alvin Robertson 33) Norm Van Lier 34) Andre Miller 35) Mookie Blaylock

Imo, Jerry West was during his career a SG more years, that´s why he´s not here in the top-5. On the other hand, although for many people Allen Iverson was an undersized SG, for me he was a PG. Obviously, not a traditional pass-first mentality PG (like many others) but at the end of the day he played PG, just like Stephen Curry or Damian Lillard.

[mariofour]

@Paddy Brosso
According to your West logic, Alvin Robertson has zero business being on this list. He never played PG.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Stephen Curry
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Oscar Robertson
5. John Stockton
6. Steve Nash
7. Bob Cousy
8. Jason Kidd
9. Chris Paul
10. Gary Payton
11. Tiny Archibald
12. Walt Frazier
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Kevin Johnson
15. Sidney Moncrief (bit of a stretch because Paul Pressey was handling the ball a lot)
16. Maurice Cheeks
17. Dennis Johnson
18. Tony Parker
19. Chauncey Billups
20. Dave Bing
21. Mark Price
22. Fat Lever
23. Rod Strickland
24. Penny Hardaway (much higher if we're only counting peak performance)
25. Derrick Rose (much higher if we're only counting peak performance)
26. Lenny Wilkens
27. Gus Williams
28. Mark Jackson
29. Gail Goodrich
30. Mookie Blaylock
31. Sam Cassell
32. Mike Conley
33. Micheal Ray Richardson (higher if we're only counting peak performance)
34. Kevin Porter
35. Rajon Rondo

[Paddy Brosso]

I totally forgot Russell Westbrook, my fault. Here´s my 2nd attempt:
1) Magic Johnson 2) Stephen Curry 3) Oscar Robertson 4) John Stockton 5) Steve Nash
6) Allen Iverson 7) Chris Paul 8) Jason Kidd 9) Russell Westbrook 10) Gary Payton
11) Bob Cousy 12) Isiah Thomas 13) Walt Frazier 14) Tiny Archibald 15) Tim Hardaway
16) Damian Lillard 17) Chauncey Billups 18) Tony Parker 19) Mark Price 20) Dennis Johnson
21) Rajon Rondo 22) Penny Hardaway 23) Derrick Rose 24) Dave Bing 25) Kevin Johnson
26) Rod Strickland 27) Gilbert Arenas 28) Deron Williams 29) Kyrie Irving 30) Baron Davis
31) Stephon Marbury 32) Mark Jackson 33) Norm Van Lier 34) Mookie Blaylock 35) Andre Miller

[knuckles862]

1.Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. Kidd
5. Stockton
6. CP3
7. Nash
8. Isiah
9. Walt
10. Payton

[Sir-Swish-A-Lot]

A couple of things, while Maravich is probably the most creative passer in history, but I'm quite certain he played SG his entire career, though not sure how coaching strategies were then, I'm sure you could of put him in at PG and he would of excelled at the position as well. Also if Maravich were considered a PG, he should be above Bibby, in fact Bibby is simply to high, no way he was better than Maravich, Lillard, Wilkens, Arenas (though his career was short), etc.

The next thing that caught my attention was Mark Price. Did you forget about him, or do you really think guys like Mike Bibby and Andre Miller were better than him?

Miller played a much longer career, I'll give him that with close to 600 more games, but Price was much better in his prime. Price was a 4 x All-Star, made the All-NBA 1st Team in 1993, and made three All-NBA 3rd teams. Price also finished top 10 in MVP shares four years. Miller didn't accomplish any of that, only thing really of note was that he led the league in assist one year. Price for his career actually averaged more assists and points in less minutes, and was a far better shooter.

You're right about Maravich, but I've always considered him a PG the same way I've always considered Penny a PG. They were both the main playmakers on their team and did the majority of the ball handling, even though they played alongside "true" PGs. If you look at Penny's prime, he was labeled a PG despite playing with Scott Skiles and Brian Shaw.

I understand your sentiment regarding Bibby, but his playoff performances were outstanding. Playing on a team with the likes of Webber, Divac, and Stojakovic and still being considered the best clutch performer by a country mile counts for a lot.

I love Mark Price. I think you may have missed him, but he is #15 on my list. I even discussed him earlier in the thread and made note of how much better he'd be today.

Pete Maravich was a SG. He's one of my top 10 favorite players of all time.

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[Not Suave Rico]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. Thomas
5. CP3
6. Payton
7. Nash
8. Kidd
9. Stockton
10. Billups

[drchaos]

I appreciate your ambition, 35 is asking too much from the vast majority of posters including me. Like I could give you:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West (I know some would call him a SG)
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Frazier
8. Paul
9. Payton
10. Curry

off the top of my head and feel reasonably good about it--maybe shifting a couple guys around or sliding in someone I forgot. I could then probably give you a next ten but with far less certainty of the order but then it gets pretty dicey.

Good luck to you though!

You forgot Bob Cousy.

Otherwise it is a very respectable list.

[dautjazz]

In any list Payton should be ahead of Stockton (who he owned), Kidd (Payton mentored Kidd) and Nash (Payton mentored Nash).

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Gary Payton
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. John Stockton
9. Nate Archibald
10. Dennis Johnson
11. Walt Frazier

Well if you're going by peak Payton, like around 1996 Payton vs 1996 Stockton, then yes 27 year old Payton was better than a 34 year old Stockton. Thing is when Stockton was in his peak, Payton wasn't even an All-Star yet. If you compare the head to heads though, Stockton still won 27 of the 49 regular season matchups, and 11 of the 21 playoff matchups, so Stockton won the games.

Considering Stockton was the second best player on his team, his numbers hold up pretty well vs Payton:

Regular season:
Stockton: 34.1mpg 14ppg 2.8rpg 10.1apg 2.1spg .1bpg FG: .506 3PT: .359 FT: .824
Payton: 36.3mpg 17ppg 3.8rpg 6.6apg 2.3spg .2bpg FG: .485 3PT: .328 FT: .771

Those Sonics teams were my second favorite team as a kid, so don't get me wrong I always liked Payton, and I don't think the gap is HUGE between the two, but I don't wouldn't say he owned Stockton when he lost to him more than he won and you argue his one on one stats were worse, with Stockton being 7 years older than him!