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My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

If anyone is offended by anything on this board, PLEASE REPORT THE POST. It will be handled.

Title edited. Slurs of any kind will not be tolerated on RealGM.

-KD

This is how I feel about people who consistently complain about refs

You're basically just giving your positions without actually providing arguments for them.

Why should it be important that you won with the team that drafted you? Why is it the case that if you get credit for bringing your team to the Finals you bare an outsized portion of the blame when you lose to a team with a worse RS record?

Yes, we know this phenomenon is very common when speaking LeBron. He is never in fault.

Not much logic itt

HurricaneDij25 wrote:My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

The problem with this way of thinking is that you're:

a) Taking regular season records as an indicator of how good a team will be in the playoffs. This is often not the case. Injuries happen and good teams coast. Ignoring context leaves out a lot of relevant information.

b) Talking about a superstar head to head matchup as if they're playing a game of one on one. They're not. They're playing 5 on 5 and sometimes bench players have an impact on a series as well. It's a team sport, so things like teammates and coaching matters. Obviously.

Sissies = LMFAO

Throwback toxic masculinity.

1.) the dirk and kg argument has been done to death but the fact of the matter is KG missed the playoffs in his prime in Minny. Dirk dragged some terrible teams like 08 and 09 mavs to the playoffs. Dirk did it as the guy, KG did it as the #2. Many have Dirk above KG including boston homers like Bill Simmons.

2.) Lebron was given plenty of blame for 2010: I was there on these boards and watching him. It's not talked about as much anymore because his 2011 series was far far worse.

I rank KG ahead of Dirk because I think he was the better player. Better rebounder, much better passer, significantly better defender.

As for the supporting casts for these players, I’m confused on why that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. It’s a team sport for God’s sake. The entire sissie comment just makes you look small minded.

HurricaneDij25 wrote:My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

The_Hater wrote:I rank KG ahead of Dirk because I think he was the better player. Better rebounder, much better passer, significantly better defender.

As for the supporting casts for these players, I’m confused on why that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. It’s a team sport for God’s sake. The entire sissie comment just makes you look small minded.

HurricaneDij25 wrote:My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

u know what u just said applies to Pau right?
and even Draymond green.

HurricaneDij25 wrote:My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

Providing context and nuance in layered debates is not a sissified “blaming the others.”

Archerbro wrote:

The_Hater wrote:I rank KG ahead of Dirk because I think he was the better player. Better rebounder, much better passer, significantly better defender.

As for the supporting casts for these players, I’m confused on why that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. It’s a team sport for God’s sake. The entire sissie comment just makes you look small minded.

HurricaneDij25 wrote:My two biggest pet peeves on the matter:

1) Most would rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Dirk Nowitzki on the all-time list, with the primary argument being that "KG simply didn't have the supporting cast in Minnesota", and this argument is shameful. For all purposes, there need to be something to be said for winning your one title with the team your entered the league with. One ought to google the one time Dirk and KG faced off in the playoffs, in 2002, and the series wasn't all that close.

2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Blaming the others may get you to the second round of the playoffs, but if you can't make guys around you better and have to "blame the others", you don't deserve to win titles. Kids today are glossing over team concept, and it's sickening. The whole concept of "As long as we have Player A, everything else will take care of itself" will not bode well for the next generation of NBA players after LeBron retires. Plain and simple.

u know what u just said applies to Pau right?
and even Draymond green.

Since I wasn’t comparing any of those players directly to Dirk, only KG, I’m not exactly sure what your point is? Or even if I agree with it.

I would agree with the OP that if your primary reason for saying KG is better than Dirk is his teammates were worse that is a bad argument.

The problem is that's essentially nobody's argument for why KG is better than Dirk. That is their explanation when Dirk supporters want to talk about KG's playoff record in Minnesota. I get tired of it too, but I also get tired of people saying KG can't win when his Boston days should have forever erased that nonsense.

KG has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of Dirk. This is generally how he is ranked. Not by everyone, but by a solid majority. I personally think Dirk has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of KG. I also understand I have a pro-Dirk bias I have to account for.

HurricaneDij25 wrote:2) If LeBron is given all the credit for for bring the Cavs as far as they got during his first tenure with them, he should also be given all the blame for them losing to teams with lesser records (Orlando in 2009 and Boston in 2010).

Mo Williams, 26, out of rotation by age 32, forced into retirement at 33
Delonte West, 25, out of the league by 28
Daniel Gibson, 22, out of the league by 26
Sasha Pavlovic, 25, out of the league by 29
Wally Szcerbiak, 31,forced into retirement at 31

Don't know much about blaming others, making teammates better or being a sissy, but if this was half of your rotation...

Dirk upped his production in the playoffs, KG did not. That's the difference to me. Dirks career averages in the playoffs were 25/10/2 on 58 TS% with most advanced stats higher than his regular season stats to KGs 18/11/3 on 53 TS% with most advanced stats lower than his regular season stats. I also put a lot more weight in Dirks ring when you consider he was clearly the man, as opposed to KG sharing the spot with Pierce, didn't have a team as good, and the fact that he basically beat a LeBron led superteam.

Was hoping this thread was about Lost and John Locke. Oh well.

Wants to bring up team success but wants to ignore teammates. Well, we now have the all time winner in illogical arguments.

NY 567 wrote:Dirk upped his production in the playoffs, KG did not. That's the difference to me. Dirks career averages in the playoffs were 25/10/2 on 58 TS% with most advanced stats higher than his regular season stats to KGs 18/11/3 on 53 TS% with most advanced stats lower than his regular season stats. I also put a lot more weight in Dirks ring when you consider he was clearly the man, as opposed to KG sharing the spot with Pierce, didn't have a team as good, and the fact that he basically beat a LeBron led superteam.

Can you adjust for the quality of teams played?

dhsilv2 wrote:Wants to bring up team success but wants to ignore teammates. Well, we now have the all time winner in illogical arguments.

And he still hasn't edited his embarrassing thread title either.

What he means is I don't like Lebron or KG and anyone who does I'm going to call childish names. That's great and all on the playground, but probably didn't need to be a thread here.

Texas Chuck wrote:I would agree with the OP that if your primary reason for saying KG is better than Dirk is his teammates were worse that is a bad argument.

The problem is that's essentially nobody's argument for why KG is better than Dirk. That is their explanation when Dirk supporters want to talk about KG's playoff record in Minnesota. I get tired of it too, but I also get tired of people saying KG can't win when his Boston days should have forever erased that nonsense.

KG has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of Dirk. This is generally how he is ranked. Not by everyone, but by a solid majority. I personally think Dirk has a strong argument to be ranked ahead of KG. I also understand I have a pro-Dirk bias I have to account for.

I have KG higher but have no problem with the argument, as long as it’s a sensible argument, that Dirk was better.

I have KG, Dirk, Moses, Karl, DRob and Barkley all on the same tier all time, somewhere in the 15-23 range overall, and I personally find this to be one of the best all-time debates. Ask 20 people to rank those 6 and I’m betting you get 19-20 different answers.