Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time?

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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#101 » by Jcity08 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:58 am

Dunk contest and Career Longevity are two well-known parts of his career. He's not had much success in his career and individually his stats & accolades dont stand out really. He peaked early as a player in his career and just never could gain anymore successes later on.

He's in the same category as Melo, great potentials that never really manifested any major successes.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#102 » by dorkestra » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:38 am

Crazy that three of the top ten SG of all time were taken in the 96 draft alone
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#103 » by Danny1616 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:16 am

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Harden
Miller
Manu
George
Allen
Gervin
Butler

Then I have Carter.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#104 » by triple_threat » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:49 am

elchengue20 wrote:Comparing Vince and players like Manu, Reggie Miller or Klay is a clear example of how athleticism can be overated and craftiness/feel for the game/intangibles can be underated when evaluating a player.

Carter had all the talent in the world, but lacked in those underated areas. Thats why his impact in actually winning basketball games was very disapointing.


Carter didn't have craftiness or feel for the game? WHAT AM I READING.

He perfected the pull up 3 in transition. This guy had like 8 threes in a half in a playoff game. I can't think of many players who have hit more circus shots (talking non dunks) than vc that's pure touch, feel, and craftiness. Undoubtedly elite body control and feel in the air (e.g. 360 layups).

Mid range game from anywhere. Super smart post game. Extremely underrated passer if you just look at assist numbers. He was elite at finding open 3 point shooters.

This guy has a game winning blow by buzzer beating dunk . YouTube all his game winners - if that isnt FEEL for the GAME I dont know which game you are talking about. All you have to do is assess the degree of difficulty of his game winners and there is nothing left to debate. E.g. 3s at Bos, Atl, UTAH. 12 of last 14 point vs raps and that game winning 3. The ridiculous multiple fakes before game tying 3 at buzzer at toronto and in that same game the reverse dunk gsme winner at the OT buzzer. Teardrop at det. Multiple game winners on putback tips (that has to be an intangible). The playoff shot on dallas when he was an atheltic shell - that took the composure and presence of mind and feel in a 1.7 second clock scenario to fake out ginobili and then all the skill to make that high degree of difficulty shot.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#105 » by elchengue20 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:03 am

triple_threat wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:Comparing Vince and players like Manu, Reggie Miller or Klay is a clear example of how athleticism can be overated and craftiness/feel for the game/intangibles can be underated when evaluating a player.

Carter had all the talent in the world, but lacked in those underated areas. Thats why his impact in actually winning basketball games was very disapointing.


Carter didn't have craftiness or feel for the game? WHAT AM I READING.

He perfected the pull up 3 in transition. This guy had like 8 threes in a half in a playoff game. I can't think of many players who have hit more circus shots (talking non dunks) than vc that's pure touch, feel, and craftiness. Undoubtedly elite body control and feel in the air (e.g. 360 layups).

Mid range game from anywhere. Super smart post game. Extremely underrated passer if you just look at assist numbers. He was elite at finding open 3 point shooters.

This guy has a game winning blow by buzzer beating dunk . YouTube all his game winners - if that isnt FEEL for the GAME I dont know which game you are talking about. All you have to do is assess the degree of difficulty of his game winners and there is nothing left to debate. E.g. 3s at Bos, Atl, UTAH. 12 of last 14 point vs raps and that game winning 3. The ridiculous multiple fakes before game tying 3 at buzzer at toronto and in that same game the reverse dunk gsme winner at the OT buzzer. Teardrop at det. Multiple game winners on putback tips (that has to be an intangible). The playoff shot on dallas when he was an atheltic shell - that took the composure and presence of mind and feel in a 1.7 second clock scenario to fake out ginobili and then all the skill to make that high degree of difficulty shot.


I'm not saying he didn't have ANY craftiness or feel for the game. Just like i ain't saying Ginoboli wasn't athletic ( he actually was very athletic, just not in the same planet as Carter). We are comparing top players, obviously they were very good at everything.

I am talking more deeply, like doing everything your team needs to win a game, making your teamates better, taking challenges against other players and dominate them, etc.

Also Ginoboli was way more crafy than him attacking the rim, he has better finishing numbers, while being less athletic. If that's not because of craftiness and feel, what it is? Manu has one of ATG feels for the game.

If Carter was so good, why he dind't even make the ECF in the weak East? He had great teamates like J-Kidd or prime Dwight.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#106 » by OGLife » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:25 am

Danny1616 wrote:Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Harden
Miller
Manu
George
Allen
Gervin
Butler

Then I have Carter.

Miller, Manu, George, Allen, Gervin and Butler are/were not better than Vince.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#107 » by Lost Angel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:10 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Lost Angel wrote:look he’s not top 10 all time SG

but he is top 10 all time in terms of impact to the game. he is the catalyst for Canadian ballers today.


Is he?

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem
AI
LeBron

Thats 10 guys right there I think all had a bigger impact on the game. Thats not even really bringing up any of the guys that had huge impacts for European players.


you’re confusing talent with impact.

Hakeem was much more talented than Vince Carter. but who do you think kids are pretending to be on the playground? Hakeem and Wilt? I don’t think so.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#108 » by OdomFan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:48 am

I don't get why so many have Reggie Miller over Vince. How is he a better player than Vince Carter? The only thing he has over Carter is long range shooting and off ball running. Vince was a good outside shooter in his own right and he did everything else better than Reggie Miller.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#109 » by Pythagoras » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:27 pm

OdomFan wrote:I don't get why so many have Reggie Miller over Vince. How is he a better player than Vince Carter? The only thing he has over Carter is long range shooting and off ball running. Vince was a good outside shooter in his own right and he did everything else better than Reggie Miller.


Vince's runs in NJ and Orlando dropped him substantially in my eyes. He's a clear cut HOFer but it's also clear he was never as good as a lot of us thought he was while in Toronto. Meanwhile it took two teams who were literally in the midst of dynasties to stop Reggie, otherwise he might have 2 rings. I don't think there's any argument between the two.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#110 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:39 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
OdomFan wrote:I don't get why so many have Reggie Miller over Vince. How is he a better player than Vince Carter? The only thing he has over Carter is long range shooting and off ball running. Vince was a good outside shooter in his own right and he did everything else better than Reggie Miller.


Vince's runs in NJ and Orlando dropped him substantially in my eyes. He's a clear cut HOFer but it's also clear he was never as good as a lot of us thought he was while in Toronto. Meanwhile it took two teams who were literally in the midst of dynasties to stop Reggie, otherwise he might have 2 rings. I don't think there's any argument between the two.


Reggie Miller had a supporting cast good enough to become a title contender for years.

Which I can't say for New Jersey Nets' roster during Vince's prime years there.

At Orlando Magic, Vince was clearly past-it and not even an All-Star by that point.

Vince is a better player than Reggie individually despite not having playoff success.

It's the same reason why I rate T-Mac ahead of Reggie for instance.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#111 » by OdomFan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
OdomFan wrote:I don't get why so many have Reggie Miller over Vince. How is he a better player than Vince Carter? The only thing he has over Carter is long range shooting and off ball running. Vince was a good outside shooter in his own right and he did everything else better than Reggie Miller.


Vince's runs in NJ and Orlando dropped him substantially in my eyes. He's a clear cut HOFer but it's also clear he was never as good as a lot of us thought he was while in Toronto. Meanwhile it took two teams who were literally in the midst of dynasties to stop Reggie, otherwise he might have 2 rings. I don't think there's any argument between the two.

I doubt it be any better if you switch Miller on to those Magic or Nets. The Pacers on the other hand with Carter could become better, and imo, much more entertaining. Especially seeing the mid-late 90s squad take on Jordan. Seeing Carter and MJ try to one up each others Dunks.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#112 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:46 pm

celtics543 wrote:
Drygon wrote:
celtics543 wrote:Where did Vince lead a team as the clear cut number 1 option? It certainly wasn't the finals.

And I can't believe I'm doing this but I need to defend Ray Allen. If you're judging him on his Heat career then you missed everything. Guy was an assassin in Seattle and Milwaukee, then played a huge role in Boston's run from 2008-2012. The Heat portion of his career was the cherry on the sundae. He's better than Vince, peaked higher.


Neither did Ray Allen lead his team to NBA Finals as clear cut number 1.

I don't care what Ray Allen did as 3rd wheel on Boston Celtics or riding the bench at Miami Heat, it doesn't hold as much weight compared to when he actually was "The Guy" at Sonics & Bucks. And yes, he was a fantastic player.

However, Vince actually peaked higher and was clearly the best player between them until 2007 when Ray Allen joined Celtics for taking a reduced role.

Leslie Forman wrote:And lead them to…what, exactly? 40-something wins and getting bounced in the weak East every year even though he had prime Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson?

This guy never even won 50 games in the sorry ass East until he went to Orlando and was just a sidekick. He's a career loser with volume stats and awful intangibles. Ok, maybe that's harsh, he's not Ricky Davis or something. But there's a reason guys like Manu and Reggie were main guys on contenders even though they didn't score as much, while Vince just mired in relative mediocrity for his entire prime.


Basketball is a team sport. Vince wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises (Raptors & Nets) and never had a supporting cast good enough for being a title contender. Even at New Jersey Nets, the roster was awful outside Vince/Kidd/RJ (who only had 1 healthy season together btw).

The "winning 50 games" is arbitrary cutoff. Vince had seasons where his teams were approximately close to reaching it.

Duke4life831 wrote:Where did he lead his team as a clear cut #1? Just 1 time out of the 1st round of the playoffs? That is the thing that puts him over Manu? In 6.5 seasons he missed the playoffs half the time and only got out of the 1st round once? Unless you're also including his time with the Nets where they never got out of the 2nd round and that offense was still being run by Kidd.

Manu was the far more versatile player. He was the better shooter, far superior facilitator, much more efficient scorer, and a better defender. Practically all advanced metrics that aren't volume-related (WS and VORP) give Manu the sizable advantage. Vince was the far more popular player, but Manu without a doubt had a bigger impact on winning.


Vince was clearly the driving force on New Jersey Nets. The Nets had a 10-16 record with 11 games losing streak until Vince willed them to 2005 playoffs. Post-microfracture Jason Kidd wasn't the same player he used to be.

It's easy to shine against the opposing team's bench players. Vince's stats would certainly look even better. As for winning, it's pretty to do with their respective supporting cast rather than individual play.


Ray led the Bucks to the ECF against Iverson and the Sixers in 2001. Vince never got to even that round as the clear cut best player. Vince was a great player but if you were drafting and you had the option of prime Ray Allen or prime Vince Carter you should take Ray. And a 3rd wheel who probably should've been the Finals MVP in 2008. The Heat stuff was end of the line Ray but he was still playing in crunch time of a finals game at an age where Vince was struggling to get off the bench for Sacramento.

Big fan of Vince but he's not a top 10 SG of all time.


Not just that, he led them to a game 7 in the ECFs. He averaged 25-6-4 on 61% TS that post season. He absolutely accomplished more as a #1 option than Vince did.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#113 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:49 pm

OdomFan wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
OdomFan wrote:I don't get why so many have Reggie Miller over Vince. How is he a better player than Vince Carter? The only thing he has over Carter is long range shooting and off ball running. Vince was a good outside shooter in his own right and he did everything else better than Reggie Miller.


Vince's runs in NJ and Orlando dropped him substantially in my eyes. He's a clear cut HOFer but it's also clear he was never as good as a lot of us thought he was while in Toronto. Meanwhile it took two teams who were literally in the midst of dynasties to stop Reggie, otherwise he might have 2 rings. I don't think there's any argument between the two.

I doubt it be any better if you switch Miller on to those Magic or Nets. The Pacers on the other hand with Carter could become better, and imo, much more entertaining. Especially seeing the mid-late 90s squad take on Jordan. Seeing Carter and MJ try to one up each others Dunks.


Reggie Miller is a guy who got historically underrated because people didnt understand how impressive he was playing at the time. He was routinely putting up 63-65% TS seasons at a time when the league average was around 53%.

If you swapped Carter and Miller, the Pacers would've been much worse and the Magic may have won a title.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#114 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:54 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
Vince's runs in NJ and Orlando dropped him substantially in my eyes. He's a clear cut HOFer but it's also clear he was never as good as a lot of us thought he was while in Toronto. Meanwhile it took two teams who were literally in the midst of dynasties to stop Reggie, otherwise he might have 2 rings. I don't think there's any argument between the two.

I doubt it be any better if you switch Miller on to those Magic or Nets. The Pacers on the other hand with Carter could become better, and imo, much more entertaining. Especially seeing the mid-late 90s squad take on Jordan. Seeing Carter and MJ try to one up each others Dunks.


Reggie Miller is a guy who got historically underrated because people didnt understand how impressive he was playing at the time. He was routinely putting up 63-65% TS seasons at a time when the league average was around 53%.

If you swapped Carter and Miller, the Pacers would've been much worse and the Magic may have won a title.


No doubt Reggie Miller was an amazing shooter, even top 3 at that category. It still doesn't make him a better player than Vince.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#115 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:00 pm

Drygon wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
OdomFan wrote:I doubt it be any better if you switch Miller on to those Magic or Nets. The Pacers on the other hand with Carter could become better, and imo, much more entertaining. Especially seeing the mid-late 90s squad take on Jordan. Seeing Carter and MJ try to one up each others Dunks.


Reggie Miller is a guy who got historically underrated because people didnt understand how impressive he was playing at the time. He was routinely putting up 63-65% TS seasons at a time when the league average was around 53%.

If you swapped Carter and Miller, the Pacers would've been much worse and the Magic may have won a title.


No doubt Reggie Miller was an amazing shooter, even top 3 at that category. It still doesn't make him a better player than Vince.


He wasnt just an amazing shooter—he was unbelievable at getting to the line as well. His career FTr [40.2] was higher than every single season from Vince.

Miller was the proto-type for what guys like Harden do now. He was an amazing offensive weapon that people didnt appreciate at the time.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#116 » by OdomFan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:19 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
Vince's runs in NJ and Orlando dropped him substantially in my eyes. He's a clear cut HOFer but it's also clear he was never as good as a lot of us thought he was while in Toronto. Meanwhile it took two teams who were literally in the midst of dynasties to stop Reggie, otherwise he might have 2 rings. I don't think there's any argument between the two.

I doubt it be any better if you switch Miller on to those Magic or Nets. The Pacers on the other hand with Carter could become better, and imo, much more entertaining. Especially seeing the mid-late 90s squad take on Jordan. Seeing Carter and MJ try to one up each others Dunks.


Reggie Miller is a guy who got historically underrated because people didnt understand how impressive he was playing at the time. He was routinely putting up 63-65% TS seasons at a time when the league average was around 53%.

If you swapped Carter and Miller, the Pacers would've been much worse and the Magic may have won a title.

I don't see how they'd get anywhere close to a title with Miller.

He'd be a good fit next to Kidd but one thing the Pacers had that helped Miller was those bigs that helped him get screens. I don't think it would be just as good in New Jersey from 04 to 09, and and by 09-10 Miller would be 33 years old. less athletic. He was never as athletic as Carter so that be a downgrade right there. He'd get shots seeing as Dwight would draw tons of double teams, but i just don't see them getting that far in the playoffs. Might not even get past Boston.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#117 » by nikster » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:21 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
celtics543 wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Neither did Ray Allen lead his team to NBA Finals as clear cut number 1.

I don't care what Ray Allen did as 3rd wheel on Boston Celtics or riding the bench at Miami Heat, it doesn't hold as much weight compared to when he actually was "The Guy" at Sonics & Bucks. And yes, he was a fantastic player.

However, Vince actually peaked higher and was clearly the best player between them until 2007 when Ray Allen joined Celtics for taking a reduced role.



Basketball is a team sport. Vince wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises (Raptors & Nets) and never had a supporting cast good enough for being a title contender. Even at New Jersey Nets, the roster was awful outside Vince/Kidd/RJ (who only had 1 healthy season together btw).

The "winning 50 games" is arbitrary cutoff. Vince had seasons where his teams were approximately close to reaching it.



Vince was clearly the driving force on New Jersey Nets. The Nets had a 10-16 record with 11 games losing streak until Vince willed them to 2005 playoffs. Post-microfracture Jason Kidd wasn't the same player he used to be.

It's easy to shine against the opposing team's bench players. Vince's stats would certainly look even better. As for winning, it's pretty to do with their respective supporting cast rather than individual play.


Ray led the Bucks to the ECF against Iverson and the Sixers in 2001. Vince never got to even that round as the clear cut best player. Vince was a great player but if you were drafting and you had the option of prime Ray Allen or prime Vince Carter you should take Ray. And a 3rd wheel who probably should've been the Finals MVP in 2008. The Heat stuff was end of the line Ray but he was still playing in crunch time of a finals game at an age where Vince was struggling to get off the bench for Sacramento.

Big fan of Vince but he's not a top 10 SG of all time.


Not just that, he led them to a game 7 in the ECFs. He averaged 25-6-4 on 61% TS that post season. He absolutely accomplished more as a #1 option than Vince did.

Vince led the the Raptors to a game 7 against the exact same team that postseason....Bucks were blown out Game 7 btw, Raptors went down to a missed shot at the buzzer
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#118 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:30 pm

nikster wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
celtics543 wrote:
Ray led the Bucks to the ECF against Iverson and the Sixers in 2001. Vince never got to even that round as the clear cut best player. Vince was a great player but if you were drafting and you had the option of prime Ray Allen or prime Vince Carter you should take Ray. And a 3rd wheel who probably should've been the Finals MVP in 2008. The Heat stuff was end of the line Ray but he was still playing in crunch time of a finals game at an age where Vince was struggling to get off the bench for Sacramento.

Big fan of Vince but he's not a top 10 SG of all time.


Not just that, he led them to a game 7 in the ECFs. He averaged 25-6-4 on 61% TS that post season. He absolutely accomplished more as a #1 option than Vince did.

Vince led the the Raptors to a game 7 against the exact same team that postseason....Bucks were blown out Game 7 btw, Raptors went down to a missed shot at the buzzer


Each series had a 1 point loss that went in Philly’s favor. The fact that VCs was in game 7 as opposed to game 5 doesnt make it more impressive. The margin of victory for Philly for the ECFs was 2– it was 5 in the ECSFs.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#119 » by nikster » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:33 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
nikster wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Not just that, he led them to a game 7 in the ECFs. He averaged 25-6-4 on 61% TS that post season. He absolutely accomplished more as a #1 option than Vince did.

Vince led the the Raptors to a game 7 against the exact same team that postseason....Bucks were blown out Game 7 btw, Raptors went down to a missed shot at the buzzer


Each series had a 1 point loss that went in Philly’s favor. The fact that VCs was in game 7 as opposed to game 5 doesnt make it more impressive. The margin of victory for Philly for the ECFs was 2– it was 5 in the ECSFs.

okay, either way its a series that went down the wire against the exact same team. So I guess that ECSF against the 6th seeded Hornets is what makes Allen way more accomplished than Vince as a #1 option
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#120 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:34 pm

nikster wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
celtics543 wrote:
Ray led the Bucks to the ECF against Iverson and the Sixers in 2001. Vince never got to even that round as the clear cut best player. Vince was a great player but if you were drafting and you had the option of prime Ray Allen or prime Vince Carter you should take Ray. And a 3rd wheel who probably should've been the Finals MVP in 2008. The Heat stuff was end of the line Ray but he was still playing in crunch time of a finals game at an age where Vince was struggling to get off the bench for Sacramento.

Big fan of Vince but he's not a top 10 SG of all time.


Not just that, he led them to a game 7 in the ECFs. He averaged 25-6-4 on 61% TS that post season. He absolutely accomplished more as a #1 option than Vince did.

Vince led the the Raptors to a game 7 against the exact same team that postseason....Bucks were blown out Game 7 btw, Raptors went down to a missed shot at the buzzer


Vince was the best player on the court against 76ers.

He dropped 30/6/6, 1.9 stl, 2.0 blk on 56.7 TS% while Iverson had 34/4/7 on 50.2 TS%.

And it's not like Vince was bad in 2001 playoffs either. He had 27.3/6.5/4.7 on 52.3 TS%.

Only difference is Ray Allen had a better supporting cast + had easier path to reach ECF.

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