Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time?

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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#121 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:35 pm

OdomFan wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
OdomFan wrote:I doubt it be any better if you switch Miller on to those Magic or Nets. The Pacers on the other hand with Carter could become better, and imo, much more entertaining. Especially seeing the mid-late 90s squad take on Jordan. Seeing Carter and MJ try to one up each others Dunks.


Reggie Miller is a guy who got historically underrated because people didnt understand how impressive he was playing at the time. He was routinely putting up 63-65% TS seasons at a time when the league average was around 53%.

If you swapped Carter and Miller, the Pacers would've been much worse and the Magic may have won a title.

I don't see how they'd get anywhere close to a title with Miller.

He'd be a good fit next to Kidd but one thing the Pacers had that helped Miller was those bigs that helped him get screens. I don't think it would be just as good in New Jersey from 04 to 09, and and by 09-10 Miller would be 33 years old. less athletic. He was never as athletic as Carter so that be a downgrade right there. He'd get shots seeing as Dwight would draw tons of double teams, but i just don't see them getting that far in the playoffs. Might not even get past Boston.


At age 33, VC had a 54.1 TS when league average was 54.3. Reggie was 59.0 when the league average was 51.1. Clearly Reggie wouldve helped.

Also, here is VCs line vs Boston that year in the playoffs— 14-4-2 on 37/21/83 shooting splits. He was probably the biggest reason that the higher seeded Magic lost to the Celtics.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#122 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:37 pm

nikster wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
nikster wrote:Vince led the the Raptors to a game 7 against the exact same team that postseason....Bucks were blown out Game 7 btw, Raptors went down to a missed shot at the buzzer


Each series had a 1 point loss that went in Philly’s favor. The fact that VCs was in game 7 as opposed to game 5 doesnt make it more impressive. The margin of victory for Philly for the ECFs was 2– it was 5 in the ECSFs.

okay, either way its a series that went down the wire against the exact same team. So I guess that ECSF against the 6th seeded Hornets is what makes Allen way more accomplished than Vince as a #1 option


Isnt achieving more the definition of more accomplished?

Regardless, even if you want to nit-pick, he’s at least as accomplished as VC as a main guy and unquestionably had greater success as a role player.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#123 » by spikeslovechild » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:48 pm

No and he was a SF for a good portion of his career
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#124 » by hisairness » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:59 pm

Absolutely
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#125 » by Danny1616 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:23 pm

OGLife wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Harden
Miller
Manu
George
Allen
Gervin
Butler

Then I have Carter.

Miller, Manu, George, Allen, Gervin and Butler are/were not better than Vince.


I disagree.

Maybe they were not better than peak VC in 2000-2001 but over an entire career those guys clearly outshined VC. Butler is close but I believe Butler is a much better defensive player over VC so that gives him the nod for me.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#126 » by kobyz » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:33 pm

top 3 talent of all time at backcourt ,when he played to his best he was the most unstopable and electrify player maybe only second to Jordan! but he was lacking the power of will of others!
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#127 » by KrazyP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:37 pm

Jalexjsmithj wrote:Not trying to slander the guy, but Vince’s influence from the dunk contest, being Canada’s first real NBA star, and his ahead of his time like trade-request means that his influence is wayyyy bigger than how good he was on the court.... which is me trying to find a nice way to say that Vince is one of the most overrated players of all time.

Most ppl listing guys here aren’t putting Klay ahead of him and I don’t think it’s close, I’d way rather have Klay.


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Klay is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.

Which all-time great in his prime has advanced stats this mediocre across the board?. Seriously, do some research and try to answer this question.

Klay Thompson at 28 yrs old:
16.6 PER.
.0.95 WS/48
-0.3 BPM
1.2 VORP

Vince at the same age
22.9 PER
.159 WS/48
6.0 BPM
5.8 VORP

Klay gets hot for a few games at a time and people start jerking themselves off to him. He then dissappears for long stretches at a time and people ignore this. He's never had to carry a team....the Warriors have been loaded with talent.

Put prime Vince on the Warriors in place of Klay and the Warriors dont miss a beat. Vince was the MVP of the league in 2000-01...he was robbed of the title because Toronto at the time got no respect....ratarded media personalities like Stephan A Smith voted for the awards back then.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#128 » by spikeslovechild » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:39 pm

He has longevity over certain guys but Micheal Redd and Tracey McGrady were better in their prime
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#129 » by KrazyP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:59 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:He has longevity over certain guys but Micheal Redd and Tracey McGrady were better in their prime


WTF. Micheal Redd? Prime Vince >>>> Michael Redd.

Vince was an MVP candidate in his prime. His 5 best seasons were much better than anything Redd put up.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#130 » by maradro » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:04 pm

KrazyP wrote:
Put prime Vince on the Warriors in place of Klay and the Warriors dont miss a beat. Vince was the MVP of the league in 2000-01...he was robbed of the title because Toronto at the time got no respect.


I was with you till here... No doubt vc is a more complete player than Klay and Klay has benefitted massively from his role ... But I disagree the warriors wouldn't skip a beat. Would Vince accept a smaller role, smaller pay? Could he fit in the offense? Would he fit in the offense ? (I think could yes, would no). Could he defend as effectively, would he? (No and no imo). It's not a as simple as saying, X is more complete or carries a bigger load, of course he could do what Y does.

Imo Vince could have been over manu, ray, Reggie, Kobe, etc... But those guys were either tougher, smarter, fit their teams better while Vince is known for pretty dunks
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#131 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:06 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:No and he was a SF for a good portion of his career


Vince was a SF during 40% of his years at Raptors & Nets.

kobyz wrote:top 3 talent of all time at backcourt ,when he played to his best he was the most unstopable and electrify player maybe only second to Jordan! but he was lacking the power of will of others!


What's the arguments for Vince being top 3 talent of all time at backcourt? I'm curious to hear it.

Even at his peak, nobody said he was the most "unstoppable player". It was Shaq by a massive landslide.

Vince lacked a good supporting cast & well-run front office to make deep playoff-runs on yearly basis.

spikeslovechild wrote:He has longevity over certain guys but Micheal Redd and Tracey McGrady were better in their prime


Tracy McGrady is better than a lot of players, he was NBA's best scorer in his prime.

Michael Reed was great for a couple of seasons in mid 2000s, but he was clearly behind Vince.

maradro wrote:Imo Vince could have been over manu, ray, Reggie, Kobe, etc... But those guys were either tougher, smarter, fit their teams better while Vince is known for pretty dunks


You seriously either trolling or just being completely ignorant if you think Vince was "just a dunker"...
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#132 » by KrazyP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:09 pm

maradro wrote:
KrazyP wrote:
Put prime Vince on the Warriors in place of Klay and the Warriors dont miss a beat. Vince was the MVP of the league in 2000-01...he was robbed of the title because Toronto at the time got no respect.


I was with you till here... No doubt vc is a more complete player than Klay and Klay has benefitted massively from his role ... But I disagree the warriors wouldn't skip a beat. Would Vince accept a smaller role, smaller pay? Could he fit in the offense? Would he fit in the offense ? (I think could yes, would no). Could he defend as effectively, would he? (No and no imo). It's not a as simple as saying, X is more complete or carries a bigger load, of course he could do what Y does.

Imo Vince could have been over manu, ray, Reggie, Kobe, etc... But those guys were either tougher, smarter, fit their teams better while Vince is known for pretty dunks


So you think Durant-Carter-Curry wouldnt win a championship and dominate the league?
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#133 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:13 pm

KrazyP wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:He has longevity over certain guys but Micheal Redd and Tracey McGrady were better in their prime


WTF. Micheal Redd? Prime Vince >>>> Michael Redd.

Vince was an MVP candidate in his prime. His 5 best seasons were much better than anything Redd put up.


Vince's 10th place in MVP-voting 2001 was the highest he ever reached.

Although to be fair, so did Ray Allen and everyone puts him in top 10 SG of all-time.

He's easily better than Michael Redd however, I agree.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#134 » by OdomFan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:21 pm

maradro wrote:
KrazyP wrote:
Put prime Vince on the Warriors in place of Klay and the Warriors dont miss a beat. Vince was the MVP of the league in 2000-01...he was robbed of the title because Toronto at the time got no respect.


I was with you till here... No doubt vc is a more complete player than Klay and Klay has benefitted massively from his role ... But I disagree the warriors wouldn't skip a beat. Would Vince accept a smaller role, smaller pay? Could he fit in the offense? Would he fit in the offense ? (I think could yes, would no). Could he defend as effectively, would he? (No and no imo). It's not a as simple as saying, X is more complete or carries a bigger load, of course he could do what Y does.

Imo Vince could have been over manu, ray, Reggie, Kobe, etc... But those guys were either tougher, smarter, fit their teams better while Vince is known for pretty dunks

I don't see why not? One you gotta remember is that Kerr played with Michael Jordan, so if you give him Prime Carter to Coach, he'd make it work by remembering his experience as Michael Jordans teammate most likely. Plus you can't go wrong with having Curry out there as the point guard throwing him alleys from time to time. and when Carter draws double teams whos gonna be open for a 3? Curry, Green and either KD or Barnes. Can't see it not working.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#135 » by maradro » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:51 pm

OdomFan wrote:
maradro wrote:
KrazyP wrote:
Put prime Vince on the Warriors in place of Klay and the Warriors dont miss a beat. Vince was the MVP of the league in 2000-01...he was robbed of the title because Toronto at the time got no respect.


I was with you till here... No doubt vc is a more complete player than Klay and Klay has benefitted massively from his role ... But I disagree the warriors wouldn't skip a beat. Would Vince accept a smaller role, smaller pay? Could he fit in the offense? Would he fit in the offense ? (I think could yes, would no). Could he defend as effectively, would he? (No and no imo). It's not a as simple as saying, X is more complete or carries a bigger load, of course he could do what Y does.

Imo Vince could have been over manu, ray, Reggie, Kobe, etc... But those guys were either tougher, smarter, fit their teams better while Vince is known for pretty dunks

I don't see why not? One you gotta remember is that Kerr played with Michael Jordan, so if you give him Prime Carter to Coach, he'd make it work by remembering his experience as Michael Jordans teammate most likely. Plus you can't go wrong with having Curry out there as the point guard throwing him alleys from time to time. and when Carter draws double teams whos gonna be open for a 3? Curry, Green and either KD or Barnes. Can't see it not working.


You are assuming everyone is able, and willing, to adapt. Could it work? Of course, but it's not a given. Many super teams have failed due to ego, role, money... It's not easy to just stack superstars
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#136 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:59 pm

maradro wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
maradro wrote:
I was with you till here... No doubt vc is a more complete player than Klay and Klay has benefitted massively from his role ... But I disagree the warriors wouldn't skip a beat. Would Vince accept a smaller role, smaller pay? Could he fit in the offense? Would he fit in the offense ? (I think could yes, would no). Could he defend as effectively, would he? (No and no imo). It's not a as simple as saying, X is more complete or carries a bigger load, of course he could do what Y does.

Imo Vince could have been over manu, ray, Reggie, Kobe, etc... But those guys were either tougher, smarter, fit their teams better while Vince is known for pretty dunks

I don't see why not? One you gotta remember is that Kerr played with Michael Jordan, so if you give him Prime Carter to Coach, he'd make it work by remembering his experience as Michael Jordans teammate most likely. Plus you can't go wrong with having Curry out there as the point guard throwing him alleys from time to time. and when Carter draws double teams whos gonna be open for a 3? Curry, Green and either KD or Barnes. Can't see it not working.


You are assuming everyone is able, and willing, to adapt. Could it work? Of course, but it's not a given. Many super teams have failed due to ego, role, money... It's not easy to just stack superstars


Klay gets paid around $15m per season, which is comparable to what Vince earned in his prime.

And he's one of the most selfless players ever.

People even uses it to criticize Vince's character a.k.a. "lacking alpha mentality".

I'm pretty sure he would easily accept a reduced role, especially when KD & Curry are top 15 players in NBA history.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#137 » by warriorschamps » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:55 pm

Hmm. I'm not sure. I would need to sit down and think about. Vince had a weird career in many ways. I mean a lot of star players spend the last few years of their career as role players. But Vince has been a role player since he started playing in Orlando which was 12 years ago. And he started to fall off his last year or two in New Jersey. So Vince was a star for his first 10 or 11 years in the league and spent his final 12 or 13 years as a role player. Strange career in that regard. Vince has spent more years as a role player than a star player. When is that last time you could say that about a former star player?

But a lot of guys that rely on purely athleticism can't sustain it as long as guys that relied on a deep understanding of game. We saw that with Tmac, Penny, Iverson and many others. Once the super elite athleticism and or quickness was gone they just weren't effective.

Granted Jordan had a much stronger team and coaches around him but he was able to reinvent himself once he lost that otherworldly athleticism. When Jordan came back from baseball he had to add more to his game and adjust because that crazy athleticism was gone but he was able to do that something most guys haven't been able to do.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#138 » by Hello Brooklyn » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:04 pm

Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden
6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


There is no way T-Mac or Ginobili are better than Vince.

Allen Iverson was also not a SG and played most of his minutes in Philly as a PG.

I would also personally take Vince over Allen. Yes Allen won more but he was on way better teams. In his prime, I just think Vince was the better player.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#139 » by dautjazz » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 pm

OGLife wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Harden
Miller
Manu
George
Allen
Gervin
Butler

Then I have Carter.

Miller, Manu, George, Allen, Gervin and Butler are/were not better than Vince.


In terms of better prime and peak, I'd say Gervin was most certainly better than Carter. Gervin made the All-Star game every season outside his rookie season (injury) and his last season. I don't think Gervin should be penalized for the seasons in the ABA, remember before Haywood v. National Basketball Association in 1971, players had to wait 4 years after graduating high school to become eligible for the NBA draft, Gervin instead just played two seasons in the NCAA, and 5 seasons in the ABA, in which I imagine he was tied into a contract. Ofcourse after the ABA-NBA merger Gervin went to the NBA.

Anyways lets look at his success in both leagues:

5 x All NBA First Team (1978-82)
2 x All NBA Second Team (1977, 1983)
2 x All ABA Second Team (1975, 1976)
NBA MVP runner up twice and 3rd once (1978-80)
9 x NBA All-Star
3 x ABA All-Star
4 x NBA Scoring Champion

I think his resume definitely looks better than Vince, and keep in mind that Carter was getting voted to All-Star Games year after year on popularity, not merrit (not saying he didn't deserve some of them), but there were 2 or 3 of which where he didn't deserve to start and probably not even be selected as a reserve.
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How old are you, just curious.

by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#140 » by Sixerscan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:27 pm

Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden
6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


There is no way T-Mac or Ginobili are better than Vince.

Allen Iverson was also not a SG and played most of his minutes in Philly as a PG.

I would also personally take Vince over Allen. Yes Allen won more but he was on way better teams. In his prime, I just think Vince was the better player.


I think this is technically true if you just go by his basketball reference page but that's because they list him as the point in lineups with Aaron McKie and Kevin Ollie among others which wasn't really the case. He was in a backcourt with Eric Snow for 6 seasons for all of his mid to late 20s, he was a 2 for his peak.

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