Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time?

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Drygon
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#141 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:34 pm

Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden
6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


There is no way T-Mac or Ginobili are better than Vince.

Allen Iverson was also not a SG and played most of his minutes in Philly as a PG.

I would also personally take Vince over Allen. Yes Allen won more but he was on way better teams. In his prime, I just think Vince was the better player.


Looks like Optms is clearly a Vince-hater.

That person recently said Vince was on same level as Jason Richardson & Antawn Jamison :lol:
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Clyde Frazier
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#142 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:52 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:No and he was a SF for a good portion of his career


His primary position as a star player was still at SG.

But yeah, he's on the outside looking in as far as top 10. Even though I'm big on longevity, his prime was on the shorter side and left something to be desired.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#143 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:10 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:No and he was a SF for a good portion of his career


His primary position as a star player was still at SG.

But yeah, he's on the outside looking in as far as top 10. Even though I'm big on longevity, his prime was on the shorter side and left something to be desired.


Vince's prime was 8 seasons as the 1st option between 99/00 & 06/07, which is a comparable to other players who're considered top 10 (Kobe, Wade, Ray Allen, T-Mac, James Harden, Drexler, etc). And what exactly did he left something to be desired?
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#144 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:23 pm

Drygon wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:No and he was a SF for a good portion of his career


His primary position as a star player was still at SG.

But yeah, he's on the outside looking in as far as top 10. Even though I'm big on longevity, his prime was on the shorter side and left something to be desired.


Vince's prime was 8 seasons as the 1st option between 99/00 & 06/07, which is a comparable to other players who're considered top 10 (Kobe, Ray Allen, T-Mac, James Harden, Drexler, etc). And what exactly did he left something to be desired?


- drop in production compared to the first few seasons of his prime
- so so scoring efficiency considering that was his main role
- relative team success was ok, but not the best playoff performer
- questionable teammate, but you could leave that up to interpretation given how he was received as a role player

Where do you rank him?
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#145 » by Drygon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
His primary position as a star player was still at SG.

But yeah, he's on the outside looking in as far as top 10. Even though I'm big on longevity, his prime was on the shorter side and left something to be desired.


Vince's prime was 8 seasons as the 1st option between 99/00 & 06/07, which is a comparable to other players who're considered top 10 (Kobe, Ray Allen, T-Mac, James Harden, Drexler, etc). And what exactly did he left something to be desired?


- drop in production compared to the first few seasons of his prime
- so so scoring efficiency considering that was his main role
- relative team success was ok, but not the best playoff performer
- questionable teammate, but you could leave that up to interpretation given how he was received as a role player

Where do you rank him?


- Vince produced 24.7/5.9/4.5 in his initial full 2 seasons at Nets. He never returned to 2001 form because of injuries.
- Most stars (Iverson, Kobe, T-Mac, Marbury, Melo) in early/mid 2000s had inefficient scoring, not just Vince.
- Vince had 25.9/6.9/5.2 in 5 playoffs runs during his prime, which is pretty very good.
- Vince's former teammates has nothing but great things to say about him. https://www.tsn.ca/vinsanity

I personally rate his at 9th-10th place, which is essentially bottom of the barrel in this list.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#146 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:04 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden

6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Harden and Ginobili routinely played with traditional point guards, they are definitely SGs


Not really. Parker is a score first small guard. And harden has mostly been a point since 15 and westbrook is far from traditional at anything.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#147 » by Jadoogar » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:13 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Harden and Ginobili routinely played with traditional point guards, they are definitely SGs


Not really. Parker is a score first small guard. And harden has mostly been a point since 15 and westbrook is far from traditional at anything.


Chris Paul?
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#148 » by triple_threat » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:15 pm

elchengue20 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:Comparing Vince and players like Manu, Reggie Miller or Klay is a clear example of how athleticism can be overated and craftiness/feel for the game/intangibles can be underated when evaluating a player.

Carter had all the talent in the world, but lacked in those underated areas. Thats why his impact in actually winning basketball games was very disapointing.


Carter didn't have craftiness or feel for the game? WHAT AM I READING.

He perfected the pull up 3 in transition. This guy had like 8 threes in a half in a playoff game. I can't think of many players who have hit more circus shots (talking non dunks) than vc that's pure touch, feel, and craftiness. Undoubtedly elite body control and feel in the air (e.g. 360 layups).

Mid range game from anywhere. Super smart post game. Extremely underrated passer if you just look at assist numbers. He was elite at finding open 3 point shooters.

This guy has a game winning blow by buzzer beating dunk . YouTube all his game winners - if that isnt FEEL for the GAME I dont know which game you are talking about. All you have to do is assess the degree of difficulty of his game winners and there is nothing left to debate. E.g. 3s at Bos, Atl, UTAH. 12 of last 14 point vs raps and that game winning 3. The ridiculous multiple fakes before game tying 3 at buzzer at toronto and in that same game the reverse dunk gsme winner at the OT buzzer. Teardrop at det. Multiple game winners on putback tips (that has to be an intangible). The playoff shot on dallas when he was an atheltic shell - that took the composure and presence of mind and feel in a 1.7 second clock scenario to fake out ginobili and then all the skill to make that high degree of difficulty shot.


I'm not saying he didn't have ANY craftiness or feel for the game. Just like i ain't saying Ginoboli wasn't athletic ( he actually was very athletic, just not in the same planet as Carter). We are comparing top players, obviously they were very good at everything.

I am talking more deeply, like doing everything your team needs to win a game, making your teamates better, taking challenges against other players and dominate them, etc.

Also Ginoboli was way more crafy than him attacking the rim, he has better finishing numbers, while being less athletic. If that's not because of craftiness and feel, what it is? Manu has one of ATG feels for the game.

If Carter was so good, why he dind't even make the ECF in the weak East? He had great teamates like J-Kidd or prime Dwight.


He actaully did make the ecf
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#149 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:00 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Harden and Ginobili routinely played with traditional point guards, they are definitely SGs


Not really. Parker is a score first small guard. And harden has mostly been a point since 15 and westbrook is far from traditional at anything.


Chris Paul?


I mean sure, Paul's a more traditional point, but Harden only shared 40% of his regular season minutes with Paul for a single season. So at the very least he was still on point the majority of his minutes on the floor. Remember the rockets tried to stagger their minutes so one or the other was always on the floor running the offense.

Even in the playoffs Harden still had a bit over 50% of his minutes without Paul on the floor.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#150 » by bovice » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:16 pm

y'all disrespecting Sprewell in here
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#151 » by jokeboy86 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:57 am

bovice wrote:y'all disrespecting Sprewell in here


Oddly enough Sprewell did something that Carter never did which is make 1st team All-NBA. Although Jordan wasn't playing its still one of the more impressive accolades considering there were still other great guards in the league and it was only Sprewell's 2nd year. It's also weird because Sprewell never made All-NBA again.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#152 » by DeRoma » Wed Jul 1, 2020 1:50 am

If VC never got hurt and the sorry raps management (at the time) gave him help, he could've easily been a top 5 SG of all time. I was a huge VC fan when he was in the raps and when he got traded to the Nets i was ecstatic howeever, as soon as he joined the Nets he already changed his game in order for him stay healthy and have longevity. He wasn't as aggressive or wasn't willing to take contact. However by NBA accolades i'd say the general opinion of this topic is right. He is just a hair behind guys like Clyde, AI, Miller.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#153 » by Retro_Junkball » Wed Jul 1, 2020 2:54 am

I think Vince is close to top 10. depends on how you weight prime/career numbers/ longevity/ team success/ role/ accolades and positions of players ahead of him.

Vince does very well in terms of his peak 3 years and also does very well for longevity. But when you get into career numbers, and team success he clearly suffers. Also, I''m not sure his individual accolades are a strength when you're comparing him to the top 10 all-time SGs; he does OK, but probably not going to put him over the top if he's on the cusp.

Probably top 10 if you're taking a sample of three best years, but overall, I think he's outside.

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