Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time?

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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#61 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:11 am

Metallikid wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
But he also had a higher ASSIST RATE - "Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor." Which means Manu was not the better passer, because he didn't result in more assists for his teammates than Tony when he was on the floor. Not to mention TP had the ball in his hands more, which means a significant portion of Manu's assists came as secondary passes after Tony probed and warped the defenses and made the primary pass. To top it off Tony has the lower career Turnover % as well. So I think the idea that Manu is a better passer or offense initiator than TP is just flat out empirically wrong. What I will give Manu is that he was fantastic at moving off-ball, but that doesn't make him a point guard.


Did you just say Manu wasn't the better passer? LMAO! OMG....

No, assists in ANY metric doesn't measure passing.

Parker's peak AST% is greater than Larry FREAKING BIRD's! Are you going to with a straight face tell me Parker is a better passer than Bird?


Your first statement is not an argument and you've really provided no evidence as to why Manu is a better passer than Tony.

If assists, assist rate, and turnover percentage have no bearing on how good a passer someone is, which I think you are wrong about, then what metrics are?


Much like defense we don't have great passing stats. We don't quantify it well. It's why it's hard to argue about Curry vs Trae in terms of passing for example. This however is one of the greatest passers in NBA history against a guy who was maybe a bit above average. It's not really a discussion worth having when comparing these two in terms of passing ability.

Remember a great pass doesn't always lead to a score and sometimes that isn't even the goal of the great pass. Elite entry pass guys from the past weren't getting assists for getting their post players the ball in the right place, but it was a critical skill. Similarly, a pass the shifts the defense and allows a player to pass cross court to create a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 type set is again not going to be recorded and these are the types of things that Manu was exceptional at.

You could always take (assists + secondary assists)/total passes if you wanted to get more into the efficiency of a pass, but again you're still going to very often be grossly incorrect with that analysis too.

That said just looking at 2015 (70 and 68 games respectful) we get Parker (11.99%) Manu (17.23%). Clearly again this isn't a fair analysis of passing, but it's a better way to illustrate the concept. I'm also not sure I fully buy into the accuracy of secondary assists, to say the least about how poor we know the nba is at the consistency of assists themselves.

edit - used 2014 by mistake, but 15's numbers aren't too much different. Both drop about a percent.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#62 » by Drygon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:34 am

Jalexjsmithj wrote:
Drygon wrote:
anatomicbomb wrote:I think VC gets in the HoF for his assorted contributions, but in terms of pure basketball performance he's not Top-10 at his position.

He played 12 straight years a an average clip of approximately 24/4/4, which is very good, but he wasn't particularly efficient, and his prime was saddled with accusations that he settled for jump shots too much and his ability to score at the rim was responsible for any sense that his game was well-rounded (his rebounds and assists often seemed borne more of pure athleticism than skill or effort. It always seemed like he never quite "clicked" into gear and had the focus and determination of a champion.

That said, he's the only player to have a career spanning 4 decades, has grown into a mentor, he's reconciled with Raptors fans, expanded the reach of the NBA, been a part of resurgent Dream Teams, is a significant reason why dunking has become its own sport, and is the source of some of the most famous basketball moments of all time. On this basis, I think he makes the HoF but does not ascend to the Top-10 at his position based on career performance and accomplishments.


Vince's prime years happened between 2000-2007 where he made 24.6/5.4/4.2. He was no longer an All-Star after 2007.

Most players during Vince's prime were inefficient (Kobe, T-Mac, AI etc). Vince spent his best years during the slowest pace in NBA history. The rules back then favored ISO scoring than ball movement. Never mind that Vince had 2 injury riddled seasons, including 2004-05 season where Vince played at career-low in minutes for Raps. His averages is very impressive looking into context.

Vince was one of NBA's best 3-point shooters, hitting 37.9% on decent volume. Can't blame him for settling jumper, which undoubtedly helped his longevity. He would flamed out quickly if he kept attacking the rim and continue getting injury prone.

Why do you assume Vince never "clicked" into gear or didn't had "focus & and determination of a champion"?

Jalexjsmithj wrote:
Klay not needing the ball to drop 30 on you is a strength not a weakness. And his prowess at shooting was one half of the partnership that truly revolutionized the game. Also, while I understand you followed it by saying “offensive” if you want to talk about who’s the more complete player, it’s not even close as Klay is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league while Vince’s defense never lived up to his athleticism. You can take prime Vince, I’ll take 2016 Klay all day.

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Klay is obviously a good player, but he has played with Steph Curry his entire career. Which means he much lesser defensive attention then he would in Vince's situation as clear #1 option. Vince demonstrated a lot more versatility on the offense end in terms of creating his own shot, athleticism, scoring off the dribble, etc.

Klay is a better defender, although Vince was smart & capable on this end.

Elite offense is more valuable than elite defense.


Do you also take Klay ahead of Ray Allen (before he joined Celtic) with same reasoning?


5 guys on offense and only 1 guy can have the ball. The ability to produce without occupying the ball should weigh heavier on versatility because of everything is even you don’t have the ball 80% of the time. He matches up offensively with Vince just very different skillset.

As for Ray, I’ve got him above Vince too. It’s close between him and Klay, I’d give the nod to klay, which honestly is probably only because Klay’s era allowed him to maximize the ability to shoot 3s (and Klay’s defense too).


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Klay is a fantastic spot-up shooter, arguably the best ever at it. But like I said before, Klay's offensive game is limited and heavily relies upon others setting up for him. Nearly 70% of his 2-pointers and 93% of his 3-pointers throughout his career are assisted.

Klay has never been in a position where he actually has to lead an offensive & opposinng teams creating game plans for him. It's ridicuolous comparing him to the likes of Ray Allen or Vince Carter.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#63 » by triple_threat » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:13 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden

6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#64 » by triple_threat » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:33 pm

Drygon wrote:
Jalexjsmithj wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Vince's prime years happened between 2000-2007 where he made 24.6/5.4/4.2. He was no longer an All-Star after 2007.

Most players during Vince's prime were inefficient (Kobe, T-Mac, AI etc). Vince spent his best years during the slowest pace in NBA history. The rules back then favored ISO scoring than ball movement. Never mind that Vince had 2 injury riddled seasons, including 2004-05 season where Vince played at career-low in minutes for Raps. His averages is very impressive looking into context.

Vince was one of NBA's best 3-point shooters, hitting 37.9% on decent volume. Can't blame him for settling jumper, which undoubtedly helped his longevity. He would flamed out quickly if he kept attacking the rim and continue getting injury prone.

Why do you assume Vince never "clicked" into gear or didn't had "focus & and determination of a champion"?



Klay is obviously a good player, but he has played with Steph Curry his entire career. Which means he much lesser defensive attention then he would in Vince's situation as clear #1 option. Vince demonstrated a lot more versatility on the offense end in terms of creating his own shot, athleticism, scoring off the dribble, etc.

Klay is a better defender, although Vince was smart & capable on this end.

Elite offense is more valuable than elite defense.


Do you also take Klay ahead of Ray Allen (before he joined Celtic) with same reasoning?


5 guys on offense and only 1 guy can have the ball. The ability to produce without occupying the ball should weigh heavier on versatility because of everything is even you don’t have the ball 80% of the time. He matches up offensively with Vince just very different skillset.

As for Ray, I’ve got him above Vince too. It’s close between him and Klay, I’d give the nod to klay, which honestly is probably only because Klay’s era allowed him to maximize the ability to shoot 3s (and Klay’s defense too).


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Klay is a fantastic spot-up shooter, arguably the best ever at it. But like I said before, Klay's offensive game is limited and heavily relies upon others setting up for him. Nearly 70% of his 2-pointers and 93% of his 3-pointers throughout his career are assisted.

Klay has never been in a position where he actually has to lead an offensive & opposinng teams creating game plans for him. It's ridicuolous comparing him to the likes of Ray Allen or Vince Carter.


Manu hasnt been tested as a team leader eithet. Its not like carter couldnt drop 40 off the bench and win a bunch of rings and hit a bunch of game winners with tim duncan and the crew. Dont get me wrong manu and carter are neck and neck but im giving the slight edge to carter because i have seen him perform consistently elite as a lead guy which isnt to say manu couldnt do that.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#65 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:47 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. James Harden
5. George Gervin
6. Clyde Drexler
7. Allen Iverson
8. Reggie Miller
9. Ray Allen
10. Tracy McGrady

So, no.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#66 » by UcanUwill » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:03 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
binjumper wrote:was he better than George Gervin? Reggie? Manu? Tmac? Clyde? When it's all said and done maybe even Klay? IF you think he is then yes I would said top 10.


He is clearly better than Klay who isn't remotely in this discussion. Is klay even close to Michael Redd?


Klay is great, 67 all time great shooter and good defense. When talking about fit, most fans always bring Klay as great fit for basically any team and or star pairing, but at the same time, people disrespect Klay just because he is not off the dribble creator. Its a 5 on 5 game and Klay is deadly.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#67 » by Jalexjsmithj » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:14 pm

Drygon wrote:
Jalexjsmithj wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Vince's prime years happened between 2000-2007 where he made 24.6/5.4/4.2. He was no longer an All-Star after 2007.

Most players during Vince's prime were inefficient (Kobe, T-Mac, AI etc). Vince spent his best years during the slowest pace in NBA history. The rules back then favored ISO scoring than ball movement. Never mind that Vince had 2 injury riddled seasons, including 2004-05 season where Vince played at career-low in minutes for Raps. His averages is very impressive looking into context.

Vince was one of NBA's best 3-point shooters, hitting 37.9% on decent volume. Can't blame him for settling jumper, which undoubtedly helped his longevity. He would flamed out quickly if he kept attacking the rim and continue getting injury prone.

Why do you assume Vince never "clicked" into gear or didn't had "focus & and determination of a champion"?



Klay is obviously a good player, but he has played with Steph Curry his entire career. Which means he much lesser defensive attention then he would in Vince's situation as clear #1 option. Vince demonstrated a lot more versatility on the offense end in terms of creating his own shot, athleticism, scoring off the dribble, etc.

Klay is a better defender, although Vince was smart & capable on this end.

Elite offense is more valuable than elite defense.


Do you also take Klay ahead of Ray Allen (before he joined Celtic) with same reasoning?


5 guys on offense and only 1 guy can have the ball. The ability to produce without occupying the ball should weigh heavier on versatility because of everything is even you don’t have the ball 80% of the time. He matches up offensively with Vince just very different skillset.

As for Ray, I’ve got him above Vince too. It’s close between him and Klay, I’d give the nod to klay, which honestly is probably only because Klay’s era allowed him to maximize the ability to shoot 3s (and Klay’s defense too).


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Klay is a fantastic spot-up shooter, arguably the best ever at it. But like I said before, Klay's offensive game is limited and heavily relies upon others setting up for him. Nearly 70% of his 2-pointers and 93% of his 3-pointers throughout his career are assisted.

Klay has never been in a position where he actually has to lead an offensive & opposinng teams creating game plans for him. It's ridicuolous comparing him to the likes of Ray Allen or Vince Carter.

No. If Klay wasn’t on the Warriors, he would still play off ball. He’d allow a player like Derozan or someone of similar ilk to still be the main initiator on offense. This isn’t a weakness, it’s a strength. His skillset allows other players to maximize themselves while not compromising that he’ll drop 30 on you. Playing off ball is the most underrated skill in basketball, and essential to any team as any player is offball 80% of the time.

Since the entire crux of your argument is that Vince and Ray has runs as the primary initiator, it would be nice if they led their team to any actual team success (you know, the point of the game) when they were the main initiators, but they really didn’t. I’m pretty confident Klay could be the best player on 40 win team that squeaks In the playoffs. But instead he helped break basketball in 2015, winning the title, and won 73 games in the 16 season. His heights as a number 2 are more impressive than some mediocre primary option play. Once again, being the primary is so overrated, anybody can get a produce when they are the primary, it’s actually harder to do what Klay does and still get his stats.


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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#68 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:14 pm

triple_threat wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden

6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Klay isn't in there and Manu is a point. Reggie...that's a tough debate. It's a peak vs longevity (as an allstar LEVEL) kinda debate that's always really subjective.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#69 » by PKABOOICU » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:22 pm

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Iverson
Harden
Drexler
TMac
Allen
Ginobili
Miller

I wouldnt take Prime Vince over any of the above guys in their prime. But he's definitely next on the list. A lot of people even have McGrady, the last successful of the bunch- and bonafide 1st round virgin- on their top 5-7 SG list, and I get that. His potential was through the roof, and he even reached it in 2001 and 2002. Too bad he never got over the migraines and injuries.
Vince, on the other hand, just didnt care too much about winning.
Harden is a Championship away from solidifying himself as the #3 SG ever. I just dont think he will ever get it being the main man and playing the way he does.
Ginobili would climb the list even higher if he took the Kawhi route and lead a team to a championship as the go-to player.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#70 » by Drygon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:04 pm

Jalexjsmithj wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Jalexjsmithj wrote:
5 guys on offense and only 1 guy can have the ball. The ability to produce without occupying the ball should weigh heavier on versatility because of everything is even you don’t have the ball 80% of the time. He matches up offensively with Vince just very different skillset.

As for Ray, I’ve got him above Vince too. It’s close between him and Klay, I’d give the nod to klay, which honestly is probably only because Klay’s era allowed him to maximize the ability to shoot 3s (and Klay’s defense too).


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Klay is a fantastic spot-up shooter, arguably the best ever at it. But like I said before, Klay's offensive game is limited and heavily relies upon others setting up for him. Nearly 70% of his 2-pointers and 93% of his 3-pointers throughout his career are assisted.

Klay has never been in a position where he actually has to lead an offensive & opposinng teams creating game plans for him. It's ridicuolous comparing him to the likes of Ray Allen or Vince Carter.

No. If Klay wasn’t on the Warriors, he would still play off ball. He’d allow a player like Derozan or someone of similar ilk to still be the main initiator on offense. This isn’t a weakness, it’s a strength. His skillset allows other players to maximize themselves while not compromising that he’ll drop 30 on you. Playing off ball is the most underrated skill in basketball, and essential to any team as any player is offball 80% of the time.

Since the entire crux of your argument is that Vince and Ray has runs as the primary initiator, it would be nice if they led their team to any actual team success (you know, the point of the game) when they were the main initiators, but they really didn’t. I’m pretty confident Klay could be the best player on 40 win team that squeaks In the playoffs. But instead he helped break basketball in 2015, winning the title, and won 73 games in the 16 season. His heights as a number 2 are more impressive than some mediocre primary option play. Once again, being the primary is so overrated, anybody can get a produce when they are the primary, it’s actually harder to do what Klay does and still get his stats.


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Nobody is disputing that Klay is a valuable player for being complimentary piece next to superior teammate(s).

i think Klay's limited offensive skill sets wouldn't really suit him as #1 option because it takes away his strength as a pure catch-and-shoot player. Ray Allen & Vince Carter are players good enough where you can build a roster around. Which I can't say for Klay.

Team accomplishments doesn't make someone automatically a better player. Do you also think Draymond Green is better than Anthony Davis because the former also contributed for GSW reaching NBA Finals + 73 wins.

PKABOOICU wrote:Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Iverson
Harden
Drexler
TMac
Allen
Ginobili
Miller

I wouldnt take Prime Vince over any of the above guys in their prime. But he's definitely next on the list. A lot of people even have McGrady, the last successful of the bunch- and bonafide 1st round virgin- on their top 5-7 SG list, and I get that. His potential was through the roof, and he even reached it in 2001 and 2002. Too bad he never got over the migraines and injuries.
[b]Vince, on the other hand, just didnt care too much about winning.

Harden is a Championship away from solidifying himself as the #3 SG ever. I just dont think he will ever get it being the main man and playing the way he does.
Ginobili would climb the list even higher if he took the Kawhi route and lead a team to a championship as the go-to player.


Vince was diagnosed with Jumper's knee & had other injuries. Difference is he overcame those injuries unlike T-Mac...

What's the arguments for Vince not belongs as a top 10 SGs? I'm curious to hear it....

How exactly did Vince not "care about winning" when he wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises. Neither Raptors or Nets were a title contender because how bad the rosters was.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#71 » by Lockdown504090 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:11 pm

talent wise hell yah, he just never realized it due to not working out in the gym enough on his body and not having the dog mentality.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#72 » by dautjazz » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:12 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Jerry West is debatable, many have him as a SG, some have him as a PG. Iverson played most of his career as a SG, including his MVP season. Harden has actually played more SG than PG. Manu may have been a great passer, but he was a SG his entire career.


They were all point guards. remember a lot of teams run two point guards today.


You can continue to say that, but in the end of the day you only designate one starting PG. By your logic, most of that list are PGs since they dominate the ball while they are on the floor, Bird, Lebron, Jokic, and many others should be considered PGs, Wilt was a PG late in his career, etc... where do you stop?
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How old are you, just curious.

by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#73 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:37 pm

dautjazz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
Jerry West is debatable, many have him as a SG, some have him as a PG. Iverson played most of his career as a SG, including his MVP season. Harden has actually played more SG than PG. Manu may have been a great passer, but he was a SG his entire career.


They were all point guards. remember a lot of teams run two point guards today.


You can continue to say that, but in the end of the day you only designate one starting PG. By your logic, most of that list are PGs since they dominate the ball while they are on the floor, Bird, Lebron, Jokic, and many others should be considered PGs, Wilt was a PG late in his career, etc... where do you stop?


Well of course lebron is a point, Jokic is a point though he isn't a guard. Bird not so much though perhaps they should have used him as one. Wilt was running for a time the point too. What's so complicated? You put 5 guys on the floor and they fill in at doing things to win. Sometimes that takes on the look of these generic positions we use to teach children the game. Sometimes it doesn't.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#74 » by Duffman100 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:46 pm

Nah, top 15. But I don't think he quite cracks the top 10.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#75 » by Duke4life831 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm

triple_threat wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden

6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#76 » by TOStateofMind » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm

Just outside. VC should certainly been much more considering where he was in his early days. Although I will say outside of the obvious (rays clutch shot in the finals), he and ray are quite comparable in terms of individual numbers and accomplishments.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#77 » by dautjazz » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:56 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
They were all point guards. remember a lot of teams run two point guards today.


You can continue to say that, but in the end of the day you only designate one starting PG. By your logic, most of that list are PGs since they dominate the ball while they are on the floor, Bird, Lebron, Jokic, and many others should be considered PGs, Wilt was a PG late in his career, etc... where do you stop?


Well of course lebron is a point, Jokic is a point though he isn't a guard. Bird not so much though perhaps they should have used him as one. Wilt was running for a time the point too. What's so complicated? You put 5 guys on the floor and they fill in at doing things to win. Sometimes that takes on the look of these generic positions we use to teach children the game. Sometimes it doesn't.


Once again, Wilt NEVER played PG, just because he lead the league in assists and was the primary playmaker, doesn't mean he was the PG. Find me ONE article that says that Wilt ran the point for the Lakers. Jordan averaged 8apg in the triangle, something incredibly difficult to do, he must of been the PG in 1988-89 then right? Find one article that states he was the PG, even when he dominated the ball like few others in history. The positions are not used to teach children the game, I have no idea why you would say that, adults talk in terms of positions all the time, in all sports. Sure in basketball you can play Harden/Paul, Westbrook/Harden, or a classic example like Kidd/Penny or West/Goodrich, but one guy will be the primary playmaker and be designated PG in that case. In the case of a forward like Lebron, he has Green and Bradley in the backcourt, and regardless that Lebron leads the league in the assists, he's playing SF, in a point-forward role, but he is NOT the point guard for the Lakers. I don't know why you're so stubborn about this.
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How old are you, just curious.

by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#78 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:08 pm

dautjazz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
You can continue to say that, but in the end of the day you only designate one starting PG. By your logic, most of that list are PGs since they dominate the ball while they are on the floor, Bird, Lebron, Jokic, and many others should be considered PGs, Wilt was a PG late in his career, etc... where do you stop?


Well of course lebron is a point, Jokic is a point though he isn't a guard. Bird not so much though perhaps they should have used him as one. Wilt was running for a time the point too. What's so complicated? You put 5 guys on the floor and they fill in at doing things to win. Sometimes that takes on the look of these generic positions we use to teach children the game. Sometimes it doesn't.


Once again, Wilt NEVER played PG, just because he lead the league in assists and was the primary playmaker, doesn't mean he was the PG. Find me ONE article that says that Wilt ran the point for the Lakers. Jordan averaged 8apg in the triangle, something incredibly difficult to do, he must of been the PG in 1988-89 then right? Find one article that states he was the PG, even when he dominated the ball like few others in history. The positions are not used to teach children the game, I have no idea why you would say that, adults talk in terms of positions all the time, in all sports. Sure in basketball you can play Harden/Paul, Westbrook/Harden, or a classic example like Kidd/Penny or West/Goodrich, but one guy will be the primary playmaker and be designated PG in that case. In the case of a forward like Lebron, he has Green and Bradley in the backcourt, and regardless that Lebron leads the league in the assists, he's playing SF, in a point-forward role, but he is NOT the point guard for the Lakers. I don't know why you're so stubborn about this.


Wilt ran the point. He was not a guard and thus wasn't the point guard.

MJ was primarily the point guard in 89 or at least he was for a large stretch of that season. That of course was not in the triangle, an offensive system that doesn't use a point guard. Lebron runs the point...he does it with two other guards/wings with him.

Yes, you're right adults do talk about these things today. It's because they're still thinking back to those trainings. The game isn't played even at the college level with these positions. Why they're so stubborn and hard to kill is beyond me.

There are roles within a team. Some teams have a primary ball handler. Some teams have a primary distributor. Teams have rim protectors and on ball specialists. So teams use shooting specalists. Some teams have screening specialists. Some guys are iso scorers and others post scorers. most players fill multiple roles. The "PG" is generally a player who can or does take on the primary ball handler and sets up the first part of an offensive set. Guy who are effective at doing this are reasonably called point guards though often like Lebron have other roles.
Drygon
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#79 » by Drygon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:09 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.


Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

Something Manu never has done, which automatically excludes him from being top 10 SGs ever.

TOStateofMind wrote:Just outside. VC should certainly been much more considering where he was in his early days. Although I will say outside of the obvious (rays clutch shot in the finals), he and ray are quite comparable in terms of individual numbers and accomplishments.


What do you mean Vince should "certainly been much more"?

Ray Allen hitting a 3-pointer as a role player on a stacked Miami Heat has no weight for his case in this particular list.

It's like saying Robert Horry should be rated top 10 Power Forward because of his clutch moments in Finals.
Curmudgeon
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#80 » by Curmudgeon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:15 pm

Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden
6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


I would definitely put Havlicek, Earl Monroe, Oscar Robertson, Sam Jones and Pete Maravich ahead of Carter, in addition to the 12 listed above. You can also make a case for guys like Bill Sharman, Hal Greer, David Thompson, Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Riche Guerin, Jo Jo White, Dave Bing and Klay Thompson.
"Numbers lie alot. Wins and losses don't lie." - Jerry West
"You are what your record says you are."- Bill Parcells
"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit

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