Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time?

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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#81 » by BallerTalk » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:16 pm

BodieB wrote:I probably wouldn't have him top 10 but is Drexler really better or people just putting him above VC by default?


You mean the TWO TIME Hall-Of-Famer, 10 time All-Star, 5 time All-NBA, Original Dream Teamer, and NBA 50 greatest Clyde Drexler?
The same guy who made 3 trips to the NBA Finals including leading the Blazers there twice in his prime before going home to Houston and helping propel them to the championship from the sixth seed?

That Drexler???

Compared to VC's 8 All-Stars, 2 All-NBA, and one Eastern Conference Finals.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#82 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:31 pm

Drygon wrote:Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

And lead them to…what, exactly? 40-something wins and getting bounced in the weak East every year even though he had prime Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson?

This guy never even won 50 games in the sorry ass East until he went to Orlando and was just a sidekick. He's a career loser with volume stats and awful intangibles. Ok, maybe that's harsh, he's not Ricky Davis or something. But there's a reason guys like Manu and Reggie were main guys on contenders even though they didn't score as much, while Vince just mired in relative mediocrity for his entire prime.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#83 » by celtics543 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:31 pm

Drygon wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.


Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

Something Manu never has done, which automatically excludes him from being top 10 SGs ever.

TOStateofMind wrote:Just outside. VC should certainly been much more considering where he was in his early days. Although I will say outside of the obvious (rays clutch shot in the finals), he and ray are quite comparable in terms of individual numbers and accomplishments.


What do you mean Vince should "certainly been much more"?

Ray Allen hitting a 3-pointer as a role player on a stacked Miami Heat has no weight for his case in this particular list.

It's like saying Robert Horry should be rated top 10 Power Forward because of his clutch moments in Finals.


Where did Vince lead a team as the clear cut number 1 option? It certainly wasn't the finals.

And I can't believe I'm doing this but I need to defend Ray Allen. If you're judging him on his Heat career then you missed everything. Guy was an assassin in Seattle and Milwaukee, then played a huge role in Boston's run from 2008-2012. The Heat portion of his career was the cherry on the sundae. He's better than Vince, peaked higher.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#84 » by Hussien Fatal » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:38 pm

There are really posters here saying Manu is one of the greatest passers of all time lol. That’s a joke. Vince is better than Manu and Klay. Is he a top 10 sg ever that’s up for debate but what is not up for debate is saying Manu is one of the greatest passers in league history.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#85 » by Duke4life831 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:02 pm

Drygon wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.


Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

Something Manu never has done, which automatically excludes him from being top 10 SGs ever.


Where did he lead his team as a clear cut #1? Just 1 time out of the 1st round of the playoffs? That is the thing that puts him over Manu? In 6.5 seasons he missed the playoffs half the time and only got out of the 1st round once? Unless you're also including his time with the Nets where they never got out of the 2nd round and that offense was still being run by Kidd.

Manu was the far more versatile player. He was the better shooter, far superior facilitator, much more efficient scorer, and a better defender. Practically all advanced metrics that aren't volume-related (WS and VORP) give Manu the sizable advantage. Vince was the far more popular player, but Manu without a doubt had a bigger impact on winning.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#86 » by Jalexjsmithj » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:04 pm

Drygon wrote:
Jalexjsmithj wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Klay is a fantastic spot-up shooter, arguably the best ever at it. But like I said before, Klay's offensive game is limited and heavily relies upon others setting up for him. Nearly 70% of his 2-pointers and 93% of his 3-pointers throughout his career are assisted.

Klay has never been in a position where he actually has to lead an offensive & opposinng teams creating game plans for him. It's ridicuolous comparing him to the likes of Ray Allen or Vince Carter.

No. If Klay wasn’t on the Warriors, he would still play off ball. He’d allow a player like Derozan or someone of similar ilk to still be the main initiator on offense. This isn’t a weakness, it’s a strength. His skillset allows other players to maximize themselves while not compromising that he’ll drop 30 on you. Playing off ball is the most underrated skill in basketball, and essential to any team as any player is offball 80% of the time.

Since the entire crux of your argument is that Vince and Ray has runs as the primary initiator, it would be nice if they led their team to any actual team success (you know, the point of the game) when they were the main initiators, but they really didn’t. I’m pretty confident Klay could be the best player on 40 win team that squeaks In the playoffs. But instead he helped break basketball in 2015, winning the title, and won 73 games in the 16 season. His heights as a number 2 are more impressive than some mediocre primary option play. Once again, being the primary is so overrated, anybody can get a produce when they are the primary, it’s actually harder to do what Klay does and still get his stats.


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Nobody is disputing that Klay is a valuable player for being complimentary piece next to superior teammate(s).

i think Klay's limited offensive skill sets wouldn't really suit him as #1 option because it takes away his strength as a pure catch-and-shoot player. Ray Allen & Vince Carter are players good enough where you can build a roster around. Which I can't say for Klay.

Team accomplishments doesn't make someone automatically a better player. Do you also think Draymond Green is better than Anthony Davis because the former also contributed for GSW reaching NBA Finals + 73 wins.

PKABOOICU wrote:Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Iverson
Harden
Drexler
TMac
Allen
Ginobili
Miller

I wouldnt take Prime Vince over any of the above guys in their prime. But he's definitely next on the list. A lot of people even have McGrady, the last successful of the bunch- and bonafide 1st round virgin- on their top 5-7 SG list, and I get that. His potential was through the roof, and he even reached it in 2001 and 2002. Too bad he never got over the migraines and injuries.
[b]Vince, on the other hand, just didnt care too much about winning.

Harden is a Championship away from solidifying himself as the #3 SG ever. I just dont think he will ever get it being the main man and playing the way he does.
Ginobili would climb the list even higher if he took the Kawhi route and lead a team to a championship as the go-to player.


Vince was diagnosed with Jumper's knee & had other injuries. Difference is he overcame those injuries unlike T-Mac...

What's the arguments for Vince not belongs as a top 10 SGs? I'm curious to hear it....

How exactly did Vince not "care about winning" when he wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises. Neither Raptors or Nets were a title contender because how bad the rosters was.

I didn’t say it automatically made someone a better player, but when you’re saying someone is automatically better because they had time as the primary ball handled I’m proposing check if they actually led their team to wins while being the primary, because that would deem how successful they were at his role.

My entire point, is that Klay’s unique in that he produces like a number 1 option while not needing to be the primary ball handler and that’s a strength not a weakness. You CAN build a roster around Klay because he could allow a different player to be on ball while still being the best guy on the court.

The argument against Vince not being a top 10 SG is that they’re are 10 guys better than him.


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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#87 » by jokeboy86 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:08 pm

Its hard for me to just unequivocally put Miller and Thompson over Vince. With Miller I can understand how playoff success and also playing with one franchise should be considered, I just don't know was he that much better than Carter. And with Thompson its hard to tell because we'll probably never know how he would fare as the #1 option on a team. Now Carter being essentially done by 32 doesn't help his case either.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#88 » by Drygon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:36 pm

celtics543 wrote:Where did Vince lead a team as the clear cut number 1 option? It certainly wasn't the finals.

And I can't believe I'm doing this but I need to defend Ray Allen. If you're judging him on his Heat career then you missed everything. Guy was an assassin in Seattle and Milwaukee, then played a huge role in Boston's run from 2008-2012. The Heat portion of his career was the cherry on the sundae. He's better than Vince, peaked higher.


Neither did Ray Allen lead his team to NBA Finals as clear cut number 1.

I don't care what Ray Allen did as 3rd wheel on Boston Celtics or riding the bench at Miami Heat, it doesn't hold as much weight compared to when he actually was "The Guy" at Sonics & Bucks. And yes, he was a fantastic player.

However, Vince actually peaked higher and was clearly the best player between them until 2007 when Ray Allen joined Celtics for taking a reduced role.

Leslie Forman wrote:
Drygon wrote:Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

And lead them to…what, exactly? 40-something wins and getting bounced in the weak East every year even though he had prime Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson?

This guy never even won 50 games in the sorry ass East until he went to Orlando and was just a sidekick. He's a career loser with volume stats and awful intangibles. Ok, maybe that's harsh, he's not Ricky Davis or something. But there's a reason guys like Manu and Reggie were main guys on contenders even though they didn't score as much, while Vince just mired in relative mediocrity for his entire prime.


Basketball is a team sport. Vince wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises (Raptors & Nets) and never had a supporting cast good enough for being a title contender. Even at New Jersey Nets, the roster was awful outside Vince/Kidd/RJ (who only had 1 healthy season together btw).

The "winning 50 games" is arbitrary cutoff. Vince had seasons where his teams were approximately close to reaching it.

Duke4life831 wrote:Where did he lead his team as a clear cut #1? Just 1 time out of the 1st round of the playoffs? That is the thing that puts him over Manu? In 6.5 seasons he missed the playoffs half the time and only got out of the 1st round once? Unless you're also including his time with the Nets where they never got out of the 2nd round and that offense was still being run by Kidd.

Manu was the far more versatile player. He was the better shooter, far superior facilitator, much more efficient scorer, and a better defender. Practically all advanced metrics that aren't volume-related (WS and VORP) give Manu the sizable advantage. Vince was the far more popular player, but Manu without a doubt had a bigger impact on winning.


Vince was clearly the driving force on New Jersey Nets. The Nets had a 10-16 record with 11 games losing streak until Vince willed them to 2005 playoffs. Post-microfracture Jason Kidd wasn't the same player he used to be.

It's easy to shine against the opposing team's bench players. Vince's stats would certainly look even better. As for winning, it's pretty to do with their respective supporting cast rather than individual play.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#89 » by elchengue20 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:41 pm

Yes, Carter in his prime was a better prototypical #1 guy than Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson.

But Reggie or Klay playing with prime Dwight in Orlando would have been DEADLY. Hell, even playing with J-Kidd and Richard Jefferson in the Nets, i think they would have been way better teams. And that has to count.

At the end of the day, in most situations they winning impact was higher than Carter's. It's a problem when a player isn't good enough to lead you far in the Playoffs as a #1, but also can't play good enough as a #2.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#90 » by Scalabrine » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:47 pm

Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden
6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


Career wise, between TMac, Drexler, Allen, Miller, Manu and Vince, he ranks 1st in Points and Blocks, 2nd in Steals, Assists, Rebounds, 3rd in 3pt%. I feel like a ton of people are just remembering the VC of the past.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#91 » by Duke4life831 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:06 pm

Drygon wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

Something Manu never has done, which automatically excludes him from being top 10 SGs ever.



Where did he lead his team as a clear cut #1? Just 1 time out of the 1st round of the playoffs? That is the thing that puts him over Manu? In 6.5 seasons he missed the playoffs half the time and only got out of the 1st round once? Unless you're also including his time with the Nets where they never got out of the 2nd round and that offense was still being run by Kidd.

Manu was the far more versatile player. He was the better shooter, far superior facilitator, much more efficient scorer, and a better defender. Practically all advanced metrics that aren't volume-related (WS and VORP) give Manu the sizable advantage. Vince was the far more popular player, but Manu without a doubt had a bigger impact on winning.


Vince was clearly the driving force on New Jersey Nets. The Nets had a 10-16 record with 11 games losing streak until Vince willed them to 2005 playoffs. Post-microfracture Jason Kidd wasn't the same player he used to be.

It's easy to shine against the opposing team's bench players. Vince's stats would certainly look even better. As for winning, it's pretty to do with their respective supporting cast rather than individual play.

Okay even if I give he was the clear cut #1 guy on those Nets teams.

42 wins and swept in the 1st round
49 wins and out in 5 games in the 2nd round
41 wins and out in 6 games in the 2nd round
34 wins and missed playoffs
34 wins and missed playoffs

Vince in total from his time in TOR and NJ (11 seasons):
50 wins: 0 times
Made the playoffs 6 times (didn't play in one of them), missed it 5 times
Playoff series won: 3
Conference Finals: 0

I'm not seeing how that resume of leading his team is enough to overtake Manu's massive leads in advanced metrics, offensive versatility, two-way ability, and also team success. It's not like Vince played in a time where the East was the juggernaut conference. The East was flat out garbage for the vast majority of those 11 seasons.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#92 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:23 pm

Drygon wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
Drygon wrote:Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

And lead them to…what, exactly? 40-something wins and getting bounced in the weak East every year even though he had prime Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson?

This guy never even won 50 games in the sorry ass East until he went to Orlando and was just a sidekick. He's a career loser with volume stats and awful intangibles. Ok, maybe that's harsh, he's not Ricky Davis or something. But there's a reason guys like Manu and Reggie were main guys on contenders even though they didn't score as much, while Vince just mired in relative mediocrity for his entire prime.


Basketball is a team sport. Vince wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises (Raptors & Nets) and never had a supporting cast good enough for being a title contender. Even at New Jersey Nets, the roster was awful outside Vince/Kidd/RJ (who only had 1 healthy season together btw).

The "winning 50 games" is arbitrary cutoff. Vince had seasons where his teams were approximately close to reaching it.

Almost every team in the trash ass East was awful outside a few guys. Hell Krstic was one of the better #4 guys in the conference back then.

Vince Carter was basically the DeMarcus Cousins of shooting guards. Supreme talent, good counting stats…completely garbage intangibles. The type of fake, low impact "star" destined to always be a loser unless relegated to role player status.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#93 » by triple_threat » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:11 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.


No argument for VC over Manu? What a joke of a post.

VC was a better and more consistent scorer than Manu. Manu never cracked 20 PPG - yah we all know he came off the bench a lot, which should have kept him fresher, yet his highest per 36 mpg scoring average is just 22.6. Carter matched or eclipsed that 7 times - i'm sure that is tied to Carter's greater usage, but he shot better from 3 than Manu career wise on more attempts (althought its close) and Carter's NJ/TOR fg is comparable to Manu. I will admit that Carter didn't have the best longevity (not in years obviously, but peak performance), but he didn't have the luxury of coming off the bench for so many years. Overall as a scorer, based off the eye test alone, Carter had a more diverse skill set. He had a wayyyy better post game; more fluid and controlled as a slasher; just a beter overall scorer and athletic specimen. Always played poised and under control and made the right play offensively - don't let the assist numbers fool you, up in Canada he learned about the "hockey assist."

Even with less usage (i believe i haven't looked up usage stats), Manu turned the ball over significantly more than VC, which cooroborates by prior comment about who played more fluid and under control. Carter definitely has more game winners than Manu so I'd call him more "clutch." Carter was a better rebounder and shotblocker in his prime.

If you don;t think Carter couldn't come off the bench and play with reckeless abandon for 30 mpg and win a bunch of titles with TD, Kawhi, Parker, and Pops, you don't know how good vince carter was in his Tor/NJ days.

On the flip side, I'd like to hear what puts Manu on a completely different tier than VC, which i honestly think is an absurd claim. Please don't list team accomplishments because that wouldn't be comparing apples to apples.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#94 » by triple_threat » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:16 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:And lead them to…what, exactly? 40-something wins and getting bounced in the weak East every year even though he had prime Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson?

This guy never even won 50 games in the sorry ass East until he went to Orlando and was just a sidekick. He's a career loser with volume stats and awful intangibles. Ok, maybe that's harsh, he's not Ricky Davis or something. But there's a reason guys like Manu and Reggie were main guys on contenders even though they didn't score as much, while Vince just mired in relative mediocrity for his entire prime.


Basketball is a team sport. Vince wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises (Raptors & Nets) and never had a supporting cast good enough for being a title contender. Even at New Jersey Nets, the roster was awful outside Vince/Kidd/RJ (who only had 1 healthy season together btw).

The "winning 50 games" is arbitrary cutoff. Vince had seasons where his teams were approximately close to reaching it.

Almost every team in the trash ass East was awful outside a few guys. Hell Krstic was one of the better #4 guys in the conference back then.

Vince Carter was basically the DeMarcus Cousins of shooting guards. Supreme talent, good counting stats…completely garbage intangibles. The type of fake, low impact "star" destined to always be a loser unless relegated to role player status.


Lol at Nendd Kristic, who by the way was never close to the same after his injury. Nets had one of the softest and worst rebeounding and defenssive big men rotation in the HISTORY of the NBA (at least for a playoff time, but probably ANY TEAM) in Carter's NJ days. There is a reason that even with JASON KIDD they coudln't over come that disadvatnge. Playing Shaq, Zo Haslem in the playoffs multiple times didn't help with the frount court matchup.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#95 » by Jadoogar » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:27 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Optms wrote:1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden

6. T-Mac
7. Iverson
8. Drexler
9. Gervin
10. R. Allen
11. R. Miller
12. Ginobili
13. Carter

Not for me. He's just outside the top 12. Klay could realistically pass him as well with a long enough prime.


Once you remove the point guards you don't have 10 guys.


Harden and Ginobili routinely played with traditional point guards, they are definitely SGs
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#96 » by Duke4life831 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:43 pm

triple_threat wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
Remove ray klay reggie manu too. I would put him at same level of tmac. Didnt watch enough of some of those old guys.


Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.


No argument for VC over Manu? What a joke of a post.

VC was a better and more consistent scorer than Manu. Manu never cracked 20 PPG - yah we all know he came off the bench a lot, which should have kept him fresher, yet his highest per 36 mpg scoring average is just 22.6. Carter matched or eclipsed that 7 times - i'm sure that is tied to Carter's greater usage, but he shot better from 3 than Manu career wise on more attempts (althought its close) and Carter's NJ/TOR fg is comparable to Manu. I will admit that Carter didn't have the best longevity (not in years obviously, but peak performance), but he didn't have the luxury of coming off the bench for so many years. Overall as a scorer, based off the eye test alone, Carter had a more diverse skill set. He had a wayyyy better post game; more fluid and controlled as a slasher; just a beter overall scorer and athletic specimen. Always played poised and under control and made the right play offensively - don't let the assist numbers fool you, up in Canada he learned about the "hockey assist."

Even with less usage (i believe i haven't looked up usage stats), Manu turned the ball over significantly more than VC, which cooroborates by prior comment about who played more fluid and under control. Carter definitely has more game winners than Manu so I'd call him more "clutch." Carter was a better rebounder and shotblocker in his prime.

If you don;t think Carter couldn't come off the bench and play with reckeless abandon for 30 mpg and win a bunch of titles with TD, Kawhi, Parker, and Pops, you don't know how good vince carter was in his Tor/NJ days.

On the flip side, I'd like to hear what puts Manu on a completely different tier than VC, which i honestly think is an absurd claim. Please don't list team accomplishments because that wouldn't be comparing apples to apples.


More fluid and controlled slasher over Manu? You mean one of the first guys that made the Euro Step so popular in the NBA?

Comparing their first 11 seasons (Vince with TOR and NJ, Manu 25-35 years old)
Vince:
25% of his shots came at the rim
Converted his shots at the rim at a 58% rate

Manu:
29% of his shots came at the rim
Converted his shots at the rim at a 62% rate

So even with the size and athleticism advantage, Manu attacked the rim more often and finished at the rim at a higher rate. Not sure slashing is the argument to make for Vince over Manu.

When it comes to why I think Mannu is better. Manu has the edge in advanced metrics, whether that be for career or just looking at their peaks. Whether you are looking at the advanced metrics on BBREF like BPM and WS/48, or you're looking at RAPM. Where Manu grades out unbelievably well. 1997-2014, Manu ranks 4th in RAPM. Manu was a fixture for top 5 in RAPM in his prime. Again Manu was the more efficient player, was the better facilitator, was the better defender. Manu was elite on the ball or off the ball. Basically every advance metric backs up Manu being the higher impact player. Vince was the higher volume scorer, but he hovered around league average efficiency his entire career.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#97 » by celtics543 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:34 am

Drygon wrote:
celtics543 wrote:Where did Vince lead a team as the clear cut number 1 option? It certainly wasn't the finals.

And I can't believe I'm doing this but I need to defend Ray Allen. If you're judging him on his Heat career then you missed everything. Guy was an assassin in Seattle and Milwaukee, then played a huge role in Boston's run from 2008-2012. The Heat portion of his career was the cherry on the sundae. He's better than Vince, peaked higher.


Neither did Ray Allen lead his team to NBA Finals as clear cut number 1.

I don't care what Ray Allen did as 3rd wheel on Boston Celtics or riding the bench at Miami Heat, it doesn't hold as much weight compared to when he actually was "The Guy" at Sonics & Bucks. And yes, he was a fantastic player.

However, Vince actually peaked higher and was clearly the best player between them until 2007 when Ray Allen joined Celtics for taking a reduced role.

Leslie Forman wrote:
Drygon wrote:Vince was one of NBA's best offensive player who actually could lead his team as clear-cut #1 option.

And lead them to…what, exactly? 40-something wins and getting bounced in the weak East every year even though he had prime Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson?

This guy never even won 50 games in the sorry ass East until he went to Orlando and was just a sidekick. He's a career loser with volume stats and awful intangibles. Ok, maybe that's harsh, he's not Ricky Davis or something. But there's a reason guys like Manu and Reggie were main guys on contenders even though they didn't score as much, while Vince just mired in relative mediocrity for his entire prime.


Basketball is a team sport. Vince wasted his prime on 2 dysfunctional franchises (Raptors & Nets) and never had a supporting cast good enough for being a title contender. Even at New Jersey Nets, the roster was awful outside Vince/Kidd/RJ (who only had 1 healthy season together btw).

The "winning 50 games" is arbitrary cutoff. Vince had seasons where his teams were approximately close to reaching it.

Duke4life831 wrote:Where did he lead his team as a clear cut #1? Just 1 time out of the 1st round of the playoffs? That is the thing that puts him over Manu? In 6.5 seasons he missed the playoffs half the time and only got out of the 1st round once? Unless you're also including his time with the Nets where they never got out of the 2nd round and that offense was still being run by Kidd.

Manu was the far more versatile player. He was the better shooter, far superior facilitator, much more efficient scorer, and a better defender. Practically all advanced metrics that aren't volume-related (WS and VORP) give Manu the sizable advantage. Vince was the far more popular player, but Manu without a doubt had a bigger impact on winning.


Vince was clearly the driving force on New Jersey Nets. The Nets had a 10-16 record with 11 games losing streak until Vince willed them to 2005 playoffs. Post-microfracture Jason Kidd wasn't the same player he used to be.

It's easy to shine against the opposing team's bench players. Vince's stats would certainly look even better. As for winning, it's pretty to do with their respective supporting cast rather than individual play.


Ray led the Bucks to the ECF against Iverson and the Sixers in 2001. Vince never got to even that round as the clear cut best player. Vince was a great player but if you were drafting and you had the option of prime Ray Allen or prime Vince Carter you should take Ray. And a 3rd wheel who probably should've been the Finals MVP in 2008. The Heat stuff was end of the line Ray but he was still playing in crunch time of a finals game at an age where Vince was struggling to get off the bench for Sacramento.

Big fan of Vince but he's not a top 10 SG of all time.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#98 » by lobosloboslobos » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:06 am

It's remarkable what an icon Vince has become over the years. I can't think of a single player whose legend has so outstripped his reality.

I mean, I had the stupendous good fortune of living in Toronto and regularly going to see VC in his prime. By god it was a thing to behold.

But after a while it became obvious to everyone in Toronto that despite his incredible athleticism and skills and power and creativity, that ultimately VC was soft. He never had the will to win that enables guys with lesser skills to achieve greatness and win titles. It was obvious then and it has been obvious through his record-breakingly long career, during which time he has not come remotely close to winning. Instead he coasted on his incredible gifts for a loooooong time, and somehow his durability as an above average player (and then his durability as a below-average player) and his YouTube dunk videos have combined to turn him in many people's minds into a top 10 all-time guy at his position. But you CAN'T be an all-time great player if you play 22 years and win 6 playoff series.

Vince played 88 playoff games in 22 years, averaging a first round sweep. Winning counts.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#99 » by triple_threat » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:20 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
triple_threat wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Wait are you saying remove those guys because they aren't SGs or because Vince is better than them? Just taking Manu for example. I don't see any kind of argument of Vince being better than Manu.


No argument for VC over Manu? What a joke of a post.

VC was a better and more consistent scorer than Manu. Manu never cracked 20 PPG - yah we all know he came off the bench a lot, which should have kept him fresher, yet his highest per 36 mpg scoring average is just 22.6. Carter matched or eclipsed that 7 times - i'm sure that is tied to Carter's greater usage, but he shot better from 3 than Manu career wise on more attempts (althought its close) and Carter's NJ/TOR fg is comparable to Manu. I will admit that Carter didn't have the best longevity (not in years obviously, but peak performance), but he didn't have the luxury of coming off the bench for so many years. Overall as a scorer, based off the eye test alone, Carter had a more diverse skill set. He had a wayyyy better post game; more fluid and controlled as a slasher; just a beter overall scorer and athletic specimen. Always played poised and under control and made the right play offensively - don't let the assist numbers fool you, up in Canada he learned about the "hockey assist."

Even with less usage (i believe i haven't looked up usage stats), Manu turned the ball over significantly more than VC, which cooroborates by prior comment about who played more fluid and under control. Carter definitely has more game winners than Manu so I'd call him more "clutch." Carter was a better rebounder and shotblocker in his prime.

If you don;t think Carter couldn't come off the bench and play with reckeless abandon for 30 mpg and win a bunch of titles with TD, Kawhi, Parker, and Pops, you don't know how good vince carter was in his Tor/NJ days.

On the flip side, I'd like to hear what puts Manu on a completely different tier than VC, which i honestly think is an absurd claim. Please don't list team accomplishments because that wouldn't be comparing apples to apples.


More fluid and controlled slasher over Manu? You mean one of the first guys that made the Euro Step so popular in the NBA?

Comparing their first 11 seasons (Vince with TOR and NJ, Manu 25-35 years old)
Vince:
25% of his shots came at the rim
Converted his shots at the rim at a 58% rate

Manu:
29% of his shots came at the rim
Converted his shots at the rim at a 62% rate

So even with the size and athleticism advantage, Manu attacked the rim more often and finished at the rim at a higher rate. Not sure slashing is the argument to make for Vince over Manu.

When it comes to why I think Mannu is better. Manu has the edge in advanced metrics, whether that be for career or just looking at their peaks. Whether you are looking at the advanced metrics on BBREF like BPM and WS/48, or you're looking at RAPM. Where Manu grades out unbelievably well. 1997-2014, Manu ranks 4th in RAPM. Manu was a fixture for top 5 in RAPM in his prime. Again Manu was the more efficient player, was the better facilitator, was the better defender. Manu was elite on the ball or off the ball. Basically every advance metric backs up Manu being the higher impact player. Vince was the higher volume scorer, but he hovered around league average efficiency his entire career.


i bet you carter had more shots and scored more volume at the rim in his Tor and NJ days but you're leaving that out - i could be wrong. Enlighten me.

Again, easier to take a higher percentage of shots at the rim in a spark off the bench role. Carter was the number 1 scoring option and routinely saw double and triple teams.

Manu was notorious for being wreckless on on his drives and risky 1 handed passes which isnt bad because he was creative. I just felt carter could create just as effectively under control due to his superior athleticism.

I wont debate the advance metrics, but the basic eye test makes carter better imo. A much more diverse offensive repertoire with the far superior post game and ability to effortlessly rise up above defenders from any spot on the floor at any speed. The clutch shots too (manu was clutch af too but edge to vc). Carter went toe to toe with all the greats in his prime. Dropping 50 plus vs top defense sixers in playoffs, 51 at staples sentre on kobe, numerous 40ish point games on wade, played amazing defense on kobe during VCs prime. When a big matchup was played, carter looked second to no one on the floor.
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Re: Is Vince Carter a top 10 SG of all-time? 

Post#100 » by elchengue20 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:26 am

Comparing Vince and players like Manu, Reggie Miller or Klay is a clear example of how athleticism can be overated and craftiness/feel for the game/intangibles can be underated when evaluating a player.

Carter had all the talent in the world, but lacked in those underated areas. Thats why his impact in actually winning basketball games was very disapointing.

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